Water Charges / Tax / Demonstrations / Irish Water / Meter Installations etc etc

eeepaulo

The_Conductor wrote: »

Irish Water have stated that their preferred course of action is to register each tenant, as they enter the system, with their own unique water account- and the account would follow the tenant as they moved to different abodes (aka it would be associated with the tenant rather than the property). The assumption is that landlords will supply their tenant details for these shenanigans- on the basis that if they don't- they will be held personally responsible for the bills- should the tenant not register..........

Assuming the water account is tied to the tennant will that make the tennant responsible for fixing any leaks?

The_Conductor

God only knows.
They seem to be making up the rules as they go along- and the Minister has not met with the representatives of Landlords, despite promising to- so its really all up in the air. Landlords want nothing whatsoever to do with this. The landlord's position is that it is a utility- like any other utility- and if it is to be paid- it is a transaction between the tenant and Irish Water (or whoever)- and there is no reason for landlords to get involved (aside from anything else- its only souring the relationships between tenants and their landlords- I mean- an expectation that landlords will meekly hand over all their tenants details- because they will have had to gather it to register the tenancies to begin with - how low can Irish Water go........)

If you don't want to pay- thats your business- responsibility for you paying- or not paying- should have nothing to do with your landlord.

shruikan2553

The whole renting situation is a bit of a mess. It's my name down for this address, marked myself as a tenant but no idea how this "grant" or bills will work when I move.

If I dont pay the LL has to and that comes from my deposit.

garhjw

The_Conductor wrote: »

God only knows.
They seem to be making up the rules as they go along- and the Minister has not met with the representatives of Landlords, despite promising to- so its really all up in the air. Landlords want nothing whatsoever to do with this. The landlord's position is that it is a utility- like any other utility- and if it is to be paid- it is a transaction between the tenant and Irish Water (or whoever)- and there is no reason for landlords to get involved (aside from anything else- its only souring the relationships between tenants and their landlords- I mean- an expectation that landlords will meekly hand over all their tenants details- because they will have had to gather it to register the tenancies to begin with - how low can Irish Water go........)

If you don't want to pay- thats your business- responsibility for you paying- or not paying- should have nothing to do with your landlord.

I find it difficult to see how IW could pursue a landlord for a tenants unpaid bill. How do landlords ensure tenants register? They can't force them to register but they can pass the tenants name and address to IW. This should discharge any obligation the landlord has.

L1011

eeepaulo wrote: »

Assuming the water account is tied to the tennant will that make the tennant responsible for fixing any leaks?

Rather like the landlord being responsible if the electrical or gas gear inside the house fails, the landlord will be responsible for their own water pipes.

As they are and always have been already actually - its just that leaks that didn't cause obvious damage were usually ignored when it didn't cost anything.

eeepaulo

L1011 wrote: »

Rather like the landlord being responsible if the electrical or gas gear inside the house fails, the landlord will be responsible for their own water pipes.

As they are and always have been already actually - its just that leaks that didn't cause obvious damage were usually ignored when it didn't cost anything.

What if metering is used?

DeJa VooDoo

Seanachai wrote: »

They must actually want to leave government, this is going to boil people.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/council-tenants-face-rent-increases-and-possible-eviction-if-water-bills-not-paid-1.2008990

So, this massive quango has been set up, but the LA's are forced into providing water services until 2026 at the earliest and now the government want the LA's to act as debt collectors and hand the money they get over to IW.


What does IW do exactly?

Squander our money on meters that won't be used, line the pockets of 'consultants' and cronies, and ensure Denis O'Brien is looked after.....again.....

foggy_lad

The_Conductor wrote: »

Presumably there will be a separate deposit- to cover the charges for water bills- if the tenants are unwilling to register. It also means of course, that tenants won't qualify for the 'water conservation grant' (whoever came up with that lickarse description for the government bribery scheme- deserves a promotion).

Irish Water have stated that their preferred course of action is to register each tenant, as they enter the system, with their own unique water account- and the account would follow the tenant as they moved to different abodes (aka it would be associated with the tenant rather than the property). The assumption is that landlords will supply their tenant details for these shenanigans- on the basis that if they don't- they will be held personally responsible for the bills- should the tenant not register..........

Its amazing its been allowed develop into this mess.

Ah but BUT it only gets worse.....!

The water account is tied to the property/single metered supply so if there are 10 flats in a house they can run taps day and night and only pay one single water charge for the whole building or if the supply is shared then they could be splitting the charge with any number is their neighbours!

Any LL in such a situation who withholds part of a deposit to cover water charges would need to be very careful they are not open to sanction by the PTRB for taking too much from their tenants. one meter one charge but it sounds like landlords of such properties will be charging each tenant the full rate!

As for Irish Water registering each tenant, that will be shot down by the data protection commissioner as it will not be necessary to obtain and keep details of those not liable for charges and they will not be allowed take details for a database to be used sometime in the future!

Mess? A calf with bad scour wouldn't have a patch on this mess.

foggy_lad

garhjw wrote: »

I find it difficult to see how IW could pursue a landlord for a tenants unpaid bill. How do landlords ensure tenants register? They can't force them to register but they can pass the tenants name and address to IW. This should discharge any obligation the landlord has.

But the LL has no obligation whatsoever once they can show that there are tenants living at the address. There are simple ways like making a statement to Irish water that the property is rented out, Irish Water would have no reason not to believe any person making such a statement! Or do they consider landlords to be untrustworthy liars?

Irish water will have to do the same as other companies like Bord Gais and Electric Ireland and address the bills to "the occupier".

aido79

garhjw wrote: »

I find it difficult to see how IW could pursue a landlord for a tenants unpaid bill. How do landlords ensure tenants register? They can't force them to register but they can pass the tenants name and address to IW. This should discharge any obligation the landlord has.

I will be renting my house out in the next couple of months. Its a new build so hasn't been registered yet. My intention is to get the tenant to sign both the lease and the Irish water documents at the same time. If they don't sign up for the water then they don't sign the lease and they find somewhere else to live.

Graces7

L1011 wrote: »

Rather like the landlord being responsible if the electrical or gas gear inside the house fails, the landlord will be responsible for their own water pipes.

As they are and always have been already actually - its just that leaks that didn't cause obvious damage were usually ignored when it didn't cost anything.

as for eg septic tanks.. landlord sorts it. Simple and a lot of the mess is eg landlords trying to avoid that .

The_Conductor

garhjw wrote: »

I find it difficult to see how IW could pursue a landlord for a tenants unpaid bill. How do landlords ensure tenants register? They can't force them to register but they can pass the tenants name and address to IW. This should discharge any obligation the landlord has.

It won't discharge their obligation- if IW have the right to associate a debt with the property, rather than the tenant.

Landlords are getting screwed over by Irish Water- and are being used as pawns to ensure tenants register- when its absolutely nothing to do with them.

The_Conductor

foggy_lad wrote: »

But the LL has no obligation whatsoever once they can show that there are tenants living at the address. There are simple ways like making a statement to Irish water that the property is rented out, Irish Water would have no reason not to believe any person making such a statement! Or do they consider landlords to be untrustworthy liars?

Irish water will have to do the same as other companies like Bord Gais and Electric Ireland and address the bills to "the occupier".

The assumption is that the property *is* owner occupied. They have stated that supplying a name is not sufficient to prove otherwise. Until such time as there is an alternate name associated with a property- it is assumed that the landlord is living there.

DeJa VooDoo

The_Conductor wrote: »

The assumption is that the property *is* owner occupied. They have stated that supplying a name is not sufficient to prove otherwise. Until such time as there is an alternate name associated with a property- it is assumed that the landlord is living there.

So they're assuming the landlord is living in a house/apartment as well as living in his primary residence?

Graham

From the Irish Property Owners Association:

• Where tenants or landlords have certified who the customer is, there should be no problem for landlords.

DeJa VooDoo

As a landlord myself, I'll be informing my tenant about registering for the water tax.

That's it, I won't be giving any details to her or passing on details about her (the PTRB have that already), I won't be putting pressure on her or becoming a debt collector for this or any government.

This is a semi state quango and I don't work for them.

Let them do their own dirty work.

aido79

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

As a landlord myself, I'll be informing my tenant about registering for the water tax.

That's it, I won't be giving any details to her or passing on details about her (the PTRB have that already), I won't be putting pressure on her or becoming a debt collector for this or any government.

This is a semi state quango and I don't work for them.

Let them do their own dirty work.

Just like Eriva(bord gais) and ESB?

foggy_lad

The_Conductor wrote: »

It won't discharge their obligation- if IW have the right to associate a debt with the property, rather than the tenant.

Landlords are getting screwed over by Irish Water- and are being used as pawns to ensure tenants register- when its absolutely nothing to do with them.

But any mention of the bill/charges attachingnto the property has so far just been the usual scaremongering by the usual useless ministers vladkar and kelly who have nothing to do with irish water.

There is nothing to show that the debt will attach to any property. Just lies and gossip like you'd hear in the pub. This is why Irish water will fail miserably! It is because they can't be trusted to tell the truth or give a straight answer!

The_Conductor

I spy a whole load of court cases, commencing in April...........

foggy_lad

The_Conductor wrote: »

The assumption is that the property *is* owner occupied. They have stated that supplying a name is not sufficient to prove otherwise. Until such time as there is an alternate name associated with a property- it is assumed that the landlord is living there.

Assumption is the mother of all f**k ups. They can send bills to the assumed occupier but try getting a judgement in a court for any amount by tellingna judge that you assumed the owner lived there because the owner did not advise you otherwise.

DeJa VooDoo

aido79 wrote: »

Just like Eriva(bord gais) and ESB?

I don't collect money from my tenants to pay their ESB or gas bill.

DeJa VooDoo

aido79 wrote: »

I will be renting my house out in the next couple of months. Its a new build so hasn't been registered yet. My intention is to get the tenant to sign both the lease and the Irish water documents at the same time. If they don't sign up for the water then they don't sign the lease and they find somewhere else to live.

I call BS on this post.

Graham

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

I call BS on this post.

Sounds like a fairy sensible approach to me.

Graces7

Graham wrote: »

Sounds like a fairy sensible approach to me.

Exactly right. If someone refuses to register or pay then that is their affair and they need to take the consequences and not expect others eg a landlord to cover their legitimate debts. We all have the right to protest but then we each and all take the consequences of that protest.

aido79

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

I call BS on this post.

Why BS?...I'd prefer no tenant than a tenant than a tenant that won't pay the utilities?

joeysoap

My son purchased a house in 2013. Single, and doesn't spend full weeks in the house as his job takes him away. Any tax notifications he receives still come to my house. He has never claimed Social Welfare of any sort so I assume they too have this as his address. Does he need to inform S/W /Revenue of his new address. I am thinking of the €100 water conservartion rebate. He registered online with Irish Water in January as his max costs will be €160 less the €100, and he has no problem with paying that amount.(*In the unlikely event they are actually able to meter him his costs will probably reduce as his water consumption is extremely low) Should add that he has no problem with the local property tax system and won't pay any LPT until 2017.

masterboy123

Hi

i received the first bill online today of €64.10, for a couple. Is this correct amount after the benefit discount? And will there be an extra fee if I am unable to pay it by required date?

Thanks

KTR1C

masterboy123 wrote: »

Hi

i received the first bill online today of €64.10, for a couple. Is this correct amount after the benefit discount? And will there be an extra fee if I am unable to pay it by required date?

Thanks

Did you seriously register ? :rolleyes:

allthedoyles

It sounds about right - I havn't seen an Irish Water invoice yet , but it must include the €100 discount .

Otherwise Irish Water would owe you €64 .

I even checked google images , there is not a sign of an invoice .

The_Morrigan

KTR1C wrote: »

Did you seriously register ? :rolleyes:

Don't start! This is not the place to have an anti Irish Water rant.