Leo says Dart Underground likely to part of next investment proposals

monument

"Dart Underground is likely to be a priority in the context of the next capital plan subject to an appropriate funding package being developed" the minister said today.

Here's a copy of his speech today issued by his department:

Monday 16th December 2013



Check against delivery



Speech by Minister for Transport, Tourism & Sport Leo Varadkar at the Shift2Rail briefing in Dublin, Monday December 16th



I welcome you all to the Shift2Rail event and in particular extend a warm welcome to Philippe Citroen and his team who have travelled from Brussels. Philippe is Director General of UNIFE the Association of the European Rail Industry. As we near the end of the year and look forward to the coming year I think it appropriate that we are discussing Horizons and how we can ensure the economic wellbeing of Ireland and Europe into the future.



The Horizon 2020 plan – launched in Dublin last week - highlights the need for investment in research innovation and science if Europe and Ireland are to maintain jobs and create employment opportunities. Ireland has a good story to tell in terms of its involvement in the EU research innovation and science programmes. Under the existing EU Research and Technological Framework Programme organisations from Ireland have managed to draw down €572 million in funding. This funding has proved most valuable and has enabled the development of our economy during a difficult period in the country.



Ireland can benefit even further from the Horizon 2020 plan in the years 2014 to 2020 and secure at €1 billion of the available funding. To achieve this there needs to be a greater level of involvement by 3rd level colleges and companies in the private sector. In particular third level colleges could benefit greatly from closer collaboration in framing Horizon 2020 consortia applications.



Enterprise Ireland provides a professional advisory service that can help those wishing to access funding under the Horizon 2020 plan.



In terms of rail transport the SHIFT2RAIL initiative aims to enhance the capacity of the European rail system by increasing the reliability of the next generation of rail products and reducing the life cycle costs of rail rolling stock and infrastructure. It is hoped that the initiative will increase the capacity of the European rail system and enable it to meet the increased demand for rail services. It is also to be hoped that the Initiative will help the industry be more competitive in face of competition from emerging Asian competition.



Ireland welcomes the SHIFT2RAIL initiative and sees it as providing opportunities for Irish academic and business interests to participate in research projects as well as opportunities for our rail sector to avail of technical and financial assistance in developing innovative solutions for our rail network. As Ireland continues to move towards a knowledge-based economy, the latest KPMG “Innovation Monitor” reports that Irish businesses think we have become more innovative as a result of the recession. So I believe we certainly have the capacity in our research institutions and in our SME sector to apply our expertise and entrepreneurial spirit to the transport sector not just in Ireland but also abroad. However, if we are to maximise our potential, our technical expertise and innovation must be supported by financial assistance and by opportunities for collaboration with appropriate international partners. In that context, we need to ensure that European-wide initiatives such as Shift2Rail takes account of the scale of research, business and development activities in smaller member States such as Ireland. Opportunities must be made available to firms in the small and medium sector for example. It is also important that the needs of countries with relatively small rail networks are taken into consideration. And there must be potential for our research institutions to form clusters of activity, within Ireland and with other European partners, in order to avail of support mechanisms.



The legislative framework for the Shift2Rail initiative has now been published by the European Commission and I want to assure all the stakeholders here today that Ireland will be active during the upcoming negotiations on this framework in order to ensure, as far as possible, that the initiative is worthwhile for us. Today’s discussions should help to inform our position for those negotiations, so your views are important and I hope you will make them known.



Before I finish I would like to highlight some of the current developments in the rail sector in Ireland. It’s not every day that I have the chance to speak to a dedicated audience of transport-related researchers, so I hope this will be of interest and prompt you to think about how research can contribute to the developments planned or underway.



The Government’s policy in relation to the funding of capital projects to 2016 is set out in the "Infrastructure and Capital Investment 2012-16: Medium Term Exchequer Framework". Due to the overall reduction in funding for transport infrastructure the priority to 2016 is to protect investment made to date and to maintain safety standards. The limited funding available over and above this priority will only be provided for projects which are affordable, meet overall transport objectives and deliver the best return in terms of economic recovery and job creation.



Despite the above, it’s not all doom and gloom and there are still projects underway. For example, two new train stations were opened this year, at Oranmore and Hansfield respectively. In addition, Phases 1 & 2 of the City Centre Re-signalling project are almost completed and preliminary studies are underway in respect of the next Phase. Automated ticketing machines are being installed around the rail network, and level crossings are being upgraded, including Reilly’s Crossing on the Maynooth line.



€1.6 billion has been spent under the Railway Safety Programme (RSP) 1999-2013. The RSP helped to revive the railways in Ireland. When it commenced we had, as a legacy of decades of under-investment, inadequate and unsafe railway lines and poor quality life expired rolling stock. Since then the railway has been virtually rebuilt and has been saved from decline and extinction.



There are challenges ahead including the significant funding requirements to maintain the existing network. We are looking at the renewals and maintenance programmes for the rail network for the next five years as required under EU regulations.



Another challenge is having fast and efficient inter-urban rail services which can compete with our modern motorway network. Similarly, efficient and modern commuter rail services serving urban areas are necessary to support the development of enterprises, jobs and economic growth. All of this investment requires that we look carefully at how to best respond to emerging transport needs while having regard to scarce Exchequer funding and commercial realities. In fact, these realities require us to be innovative about how we optimise the use of existing infrastructure from the operational perspective, and how we can enhance the quality of services for passengers. Information technology can play a key role here, for example through the provision of traffic and service information.



Of course, the Luas Cross City project is the key public transport project prioritised by the Government on the basis that it will be affordable and will create a Luas network by linking the two existing Luas Red and Green lines in the City Centre and will connect Cabra (at Broombridge rail station) to the existing Luas at St Stephen’s Green. The project is progressing well and the essential advance works are underway.



Work on the main contract is expected to commence in early 2015 and to be completed by the end of 2016. Following testing, commissioning and trial runs the line is currently targeted to open in Q4 2017. The EIB has recently provisionally approved a loan of €163m for the project.



My Department has commenced work on a “Strategic Investment Framework for Land Transport” as a foundation document to inform the next Capital plan. The priorities for rail investment will be a major part of the Framework and I expect that the deficiencies which the Dart Underground was to address will be highlighted.



I recently met with officials from the EU Commission and the Ten-T Executive Agency in Brussels who confirmed their positive views towards the Dart Underground. The EIB had also indicated a keen interest in supporting DU and this interest was confirmed to me at a meeting with the EIB Management Board on 29 April last. The Dart Underground has been included in the new Ten-T Core Network and is part of one of the nine Core Corridors. Dart Underground is likely to be a priority in the context of the next capital plan subject to an appropriate funding package being developed.



The railway modernisation programme is still underway in Ireland therefore, and I would finally like to remind you that innovations at the European level should also help us in that process. The Shift2Rail initiative should be an opportunity for us to avail of the latest thinking in Europe and, indeed, to participate in the anticipated dialogue on technical rail issues at the European level, making sure that problems specific to our network and our circumstances are also included in that dialogue.


Ends

Gokei

Good.

spank_inferno

Governments love to look like they are doing something by announcing the same job half a dozen times over a decade.

Gokei

Once it gets done. That's the important aspect. Let the transport minister of the day lap it up for all it's worth.. don't think it'll be started in this government's lifetime.

Op, what's your opinion?

bazza1

The Minister for Leo loves to hear himself talk! The money will not be available in the short to medium term, I suspect.

AngryLips

Well something will have to be delivered for transport in the next funding package. What would it be if there's not enough money for DU?

cgcsb

the government's economic development plan is due out this afternoon, perhaps it will include a deal on DARTu?

bk

AngryLips wrote: »

Well something will have to be delivered for transport in the next funding package. What would it be if there's not enough money for DU?

Yes, I'd expect either DU or MN.

LUAS BXD was the stop gap infrastructure project to do during the recession.

Now that we are slowly starting to come out of the recession, there are only a few major infrastructure projects on the plate, DU, MN and maybe the M20

I can't really think of any others. Anybody else?

cgcsb

DART Underground is only part of (granted the most expensive part of) a new DART newtwork, which also involves electrification to Drogheda, Hazelhatch, Maynooth/Dunboyne. All in all it's a lot of money to reinvent the DART probably more than double metro's price tag and by far the most expensive of the big infrastructure projects, so a commitment to it would be very positive indeed.

Also by the time the next rolling stock replacement on the ICN takes place, IÉ has high hopes of electrifying Dublin-Cork&Galway, 200km/h+ speeds and double tracking to Athlone & Beyond so that may also be a feature of rail investment.

TheBandicoot

cgcsb wrote: »

the government's economic development plan is due out this afternoon, perhaps it will include a deal on DARTu?

http://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/strategy-for-growth.pdf

Lol, nope. Nothing in it but reaffirming the tendering of some bus routes and a line I can't copy for some reason saying "Future investment in public transport infrastructure will be considered as part of the national programme of investment in infrastructure".

Jamie2k9

bk wrote: »

Yes, I'd expect either DU or MN.

LUAS BXD was the stop gap infrastructure project to do during the recession.

Now that we are slowly starting to come out of the recession, there are only a few major infrastructure projects on the plate, DU, MN and maybe the M20

I can't really think of any others. Anybody else?

There is more in terms of roads but noting that is as urgent as the projects above.

Zoney

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is more in terms of roads but noting that is as urgent as the projects above.

Except the M20, save lives of people who will otherwise die in the years ahead, and allow more commerce between the 2nd and 3rd cities in the country!

Should have happened before M17/M18 as well, and even probably the M6 from Athlone to Galway and certainly M9 Kilkenny to Waterford.

Jamie2k9

Zoney wrote: »

Except the M20, save lives of people who will otherwise die in the years ahead, and allow more commerce between the 2nd and 3rd cities in the country!

Should have happened before M17/M18 as well, and even probably the M6 from Athlone to Galway and certainly M9 Kilkenny to Waterford.

The N9 between Kilkenny and Waterford was a very dangerous road before the M9 and much worse than the current N20.

I agree it should of being next before the M17/18 but of course geographic location was why M17/18 is ahead.

You could argue why the M7 was build past Portlaoise but as your from Limerick that more justified than the M6 and M9 of course!

OP also remember its people who cause the accidents not the roads, yes they have a part to play but majority of accidents are preventable as human error is to blame. If people didn't speed very few would die.

cgcsb

Zoney wrote: »

Except the M20, save lives of people who will otherwise die in the years ahead, and allow more commerce between the 2nd and 3rd cities in the country!

Should have happened before M17/M18 as well, and even probably the M6 from Athlone to Galway and certainly M9 Kilkenny to Waterford.

the majority of accidents are down to human error and could just as easily occur on motorway. The M9 was badly needed, the old N9 was v dangerous.

Before the M20 happens, inter city rail in this country needs to be improved. We have more km of motorway per head than any EU state.

Limerick Junction should be upgraded to allow for better Cork-Limerick journey times and we need to actually look at connecting Charleville to Patrick's well by rail so we can have Cork to Limerick Journeys of an hour or less, and less than three hours Cork-Galway by rail.

corktina

Ah Patrickswell, unfortunately you just blew your credibility right out of the water.

cgcsb

corktina wrote: »

Ah Patrickswell, unfortunately you just blew your credibility right out of the water.

why is that? I said we should have a proper look at the possibility, not that it should be done tomorrow.

Copyerselveson

A more likely prospect would be to ensure there's good connections from Cork to Limerick via Limerick Junction. The best connection between the two cities is the 07:00 from Cork, which connects at Limerick Junction to allow a 8:35 arrival into Colbert, and the 1520 from Cork which with a connection at the Junction arrives into Colbert at 1649.

More typically the waiting time at Limerick Junction is about 20-25 minutes which bumps the journey time up to under 2 hours.

Were direct trains between Cork and Limerick via the Junction run in the past?

Cool Mo D

Copyerselveson wrote: »

A more likely prospect would be to ensure there's good connections from Cork to Limerick via Limerick Junction. The best connection between the two cities is the 07:00 from Cork, which connects at Limerick Junction to allow a 8:35 arrival into Colbert, and the 1520 from Cork which with a connection at the Junction arrives into Colbert at 1649.

More typically the waiting time at Limerick Junction is about 20-25 minutes which bumps the journey time up to under 2 hours.

Were direct trains between Cork and Limerick via the Junction run in the past?

Since there is only one long platform at Limerick Junction, Dublin-Cork trains have to make an awkward criss-crossing manoeuvre to get to stop there. If another platform was added, you could have Dublin-Cork trains in both directions meeting there simultaneously. A timetable like this would work:

Shuttle arriving from Limerick : XX:10 (bay platform)
Dublin-Cork train : XX:15
Cork-Dublin train : XX:15
Shuttle to Limerick : XX:20

This would vastly improve Cork-Limerick connections without running a single extra train.

Vanquished

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The N9 between Kilkenny and Waterford was a very dangerous road before the M9 and much worse than the current N20.

Clearly you've never driven through the Ballybeg bends then! An appallingly primitive, centuries old donkey and cart track masquerading as the national primary route between the second and third largest cities in the state!

The scene of countless accidents over the years. Many of those fatal!

https://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Ballybeg+Priory&ll=52.218046,-8.669243&spn=0.007046,0.042272&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&fb=1&gl=ie&hq=ballybeg+buttevant&cid=226051315247575453&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=52.218036,-8.669239&panoid=QNe3GK0a3Jti0clWe5qxJg&cbp=11,140.55,,0,0

OP also remember its people who cause the accidents not the roads, yes they have a part to play but majority of accidents are preventable as human error is to blame. If people didn't speed very few would die.

You just try and even attempt to "speed" on that stretch and see how you get on! Oh yeah and watch out for a big artic snaking around the corner struggling to hold it's lane and often drifting over the white line even at slow speeds because the alignment is so utterly shambolic!

LXFlyer

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Since there is only one long platform at Limerick Junction, Dublin-Cork trains have to make an awkward criss-crossing manoeuvre to get to stop there. If another platform was added, you could have Dublin-Cork trains in both directions meeting there simultaneously. A timetable like this would work:

Shuttle arriving from Limerick : XX:10 (bay platform)
Dublin-Cork train : XX:15
Cork-Dublin train : XX:15
Shuttle to Limerick : XX:20

This would vastly improve Cork-Limerick connections without running a single extra train.

The main problem at Limerick Junction right now is the problems caused by the elimination of the crossover directly to the east of the flat crossing (where the line to/from Waterford crosses the Dublin/Cork line).

That means that any southbound train has to crossover onto the up line using the crossover to the east of Kyle level crossing after the up train has cleared the station, which does mean a minimum of 8 or 9 minutes between up and down trains calling at the station.

cgcsb

Copyerselveson wrote: »

A more likely prospect would be to ensure there's good connections from Cork to Limerick via Limerick Junction. The best connection between the two cities is the 07:00 from Cork, which connects at Limerick Junction to allow a 8:35 arrival into Colbert, and the 1520 from Cork which with a connection at the Junction arrives into Colbert at 1649.

More typically the waiting time at Limerick Junction is about 20-25 minutes which bumps the journey time up to under 2 hours.

Were direct trains between Cork and Limerick via the Junction run in the past?

sounds like a good idea the current fastest connection has a wait time of 11 minutes, the overallh journey is 1 hour 35 mins. If an upgrade of Limerick junct knocked that down to 1 hour 25, that'd about match a car journey. However at some stage the M20 will be built, so to remain competitive when that happens, more improvements will be required. Perhaps line improvements between Mallow and Cork to allow for greater speed, perhaps a new line from Charleville to Patrickswell, perhaps both.

A full motorway M20 could have journey times of 50 minutes, IÉ needs to plan for this if they are to retain a decent portion of the market.

As far as I know there were direct Cork-Limerick via Limerick junction trains and before that there was a single line connection between Charleville and patrickswell which accommodated a direct service. Ripped up of course, courtesy of Mr Devalera.

Copyerselveson

cgcsb wrote: »

sounds like a good idea the current fastest connection has a wait time of 11 minutes, the overallh journey is 1 hour 35 mins. If an upgrade of Limerick junct knocked that down to 1 hour 25, that'd about match a car journey. However at some stage the M20 will be built, so to remain competitive when that happens, more improvements will be required. Perhaps line improvements between Mallow and Cork to allow for greater speed, perhaps a new line from Charleville to Patrickswell, perhaps both.

A full motorway M20 could have journey times of 50 minutes, IÉ needs to plan for this if they are to retain a decent portion of the market.

As far as I know there were direct Cork-Limerick via Limerick junction trains and before that there was a single line connection between Charleville and patrickswell which accommodated a direct service. Ripped up of course, courtesy of Mr Devalera.

Careful now, you're talking dark forbidden stuff here! But seriously I believe that the alignment between Charleville and Patrickswell has been preserved to an extent.

The AECOM report only scored 32 points (60 being a qualifier for consideration) on this route, so the only context in which the more direct Cork-Limerick route might come about would be if the rail element of the Western Arc proposals ever came to light. That might well be a long way off!

cgcsb

Copyerselveson wrote: »

The AECOM report only scored 32 points (60 being a qualifier for consideration) on this route, so the only context in which the more direct Cork-Limerick route might come about would be if the rail element of the Western Arc proposals ever came to light. That might well be a long way off!

Hypothetically speaking, if Limerick junction is improved and 1 hour 25 or better times are offered (with scope to improve that through infrastructure renewal between Cork and Mallow along with closing level crossings). Then how on Earth can the M20 pass a cost benefit analysis?

If a rail alignment only scores 32, needing a 60 min to qualify, then what hope has a multi billion euro motorway, that would be unlikely to attract private funding and would be lifting potential customers off of the state subsidised railway???

Copyerselveson

Because politically we always seem to have the money to build motorways and you won't find many people queuing up to bash the development of motorways. Or turn roads into cycle tracks for that matter.

This country really needs a proper integrated transport policy. I'm not against motorway building but the cost of motorways is ignored while practically every penny spent on rail is scrutinised.

monument

Gokei wrote: »

Once it gets done. That's the important aspect. Let the transport minister of the day lap it up for all it's worth.. don't think it'll be started in this government's lifetime.

Op, what's your opinion?

That a Dart Underground type project should have been built 10-20 years ago and maybe 30 or more years ago. That Dublin gets far less than its fair share while providing for many counties (the "Dublin gets everything" view is incorrect -- it's become a highly sick part of our political system and worse still there's few calling for decent funding for Dublin).

While going ahead with DU might not have been realistic in the last few years due to the harsh budgets, we now seem to be back to a stage where DU should get the go ahead.

Without a better core rail network, Dublin is going to suffer more and more.

Copyerselveson

monument wrote: »

That a Dart Underground type project should have been built 10-20 years ago and maybe 30 or more years ago. That Dublin gets far less than its fair share while providing for many counties (the "Dublin gets everything" view is incorrect -- it's become a highly sick part of our political system and worse still there's few calling for decent funding for Dublin).

While going ahead with DU might not have been realistic in the last few years due to the harsh budgets, we now seem to be back to a stage where DU should get the go ahead.

Without a better core rail network, Dublin is going to suffer more and more.

Monument do you think the proposed Clongriffin-Dublin Airport link should be part of DU?

cgcsb

Copyerselveson wrote: »

Because politically we always seem to have the money to build motorways and you won't find many people queuing up to bash the development of motorways. Or turn roads into cycle tracks for that matter.

This country really needs a proper integrated transport policy. I'm not against motorway building but the cost of motorways is ignored while practically every penny spent on rail is scrutinised.

Politics should be a minor consideration in Cost Benefit Analysis, if at all.

Indeed, even IÉ's current spending subsidy is quite small when you consider how much the state is subsidising private toll companies on barren motorways. Yet the media would have you believe that IÉ is getting tons of money while roads are these handier, and completely free methods of transport.

robd

Gokei wrote: »

Once it gets done. That's the important aspect. Let the transport minister of the day lap it up for all it's worth.. don't think it'll be started in this government's lifetime.

Op, what's your opinion?

The cynic in me notices that he is announcing that a project will get started during the term of the next government not this government. Nice of him to make that commitment, that of course no-one has to fulfil.

end of the road

i hope this does go ahead along with the phoenix park tunnel, not sure on the airport rail link but as apparently thats where metro north will go i hope that maybe metro north could be included eventually as an underground dart system instead? would make integration easier IMO.

Victor

corktina wrote: »

Ah Patrickswell, unfortunately you just blew your credibility right out of the water.

Constructive posts only please.

Moderator

corktina

The Patrickswell chestnut....the line has largely disappeared under the N20 Croom bypass and also the M21 junction severs it. The line from Patrickswell into the city winds through housing estates and over level crossings and I believe the staff canteen is built on it at Limerick.
It's a non-starter for those reasons and also because there would be uproar if a second route to Limerick from Cork was built, given that it would save mere minutes.
There are far more important projects to invest in, this one is as much Pie in the Sky as Sligo to Galway

It's old ground we have been over this several times before.

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

The Patrickswell chestnut....the line has largely disappeared under the N20 Croom bypass and also the M21 junction severs it. The line from Patrickswell into the city winds through housing estates and over level crossings and I believe the staff canteen is built on it at Limerick.

stuff can be demolished and bridges built if such a reopening became viable, it would be a big step but should a railway be needed it should be built, its done for roads so why should railways be any different.

corktina wrote: »

It's a non-starter for those reasons and also because there would be uproar if a second route to Limerick from Cork was built, given that it would save mere minutes.

uproar from who though? the politicians? so be it, if the line ever became viable again then they can uproar all they like. or the public? if another line was closed to pay for it then the uproar would be deserved.

corktina wrote: »

There are far more important projects to invest in

would agree with this, but it shouldn't be ruled out as a future project, we need to develop our other cities more, theirs only so much development dublin could support, i agree now their would be no point reopening this line but maybe in 30 40 years it could be considered.

corktina wrote: »

this one is as much Pie in the Sky as Sligo to Galway

i wouldn't go that far but i would say for now your right, had we developed our other cities and had transport policy supported public transport back in the 50s up when cars began to come then maybe such links could still be here and the development to support it.

patrickbrophy18

monument wrote: »

That a Dart Underground type project should have been built 10-20 years ago and maybe 30 or more years ago. That Dublin gets far less than its fair share while providing for many counties (the "Dublin gets everything" view is incorrect -- it's become a highly sick part of our political system and worse still there's few calling for decent funding for Dublin).

While going ahead with DU might not have been realistic in the last few years due to the harsh budgets, we now seem to be back to a stage where DU should get the go ahead.

Without a better core rail network, Dublin is going to suffer more and more.

Couldn't have put THIS better myself. Would it be true to say that there is a domino effect where traffic (that could otherwise be done with a far superior public transport system) is spilling onto the M50?

The reason why I ask this is that traffic has gotten steadily worse since September.

While it's a very long way off yet, I do think an orbital rail network is needed for the countless business parks which are in close proximity to the M50 and the population within a 2 mile radius.

Abroad, places like Dublin (including the Greater Dublin Area) with similar population and size have had rather extensive core-rail networks for at least 2 decades. By core-rail network, I mean a fast, efficient system and not the Luas which is, pretty much, a glorified bus system with it's surface level traversal and windy nature.

cgcsb

corktina wrote: »

The Patrickswell chestnut....the line has largely disappeared under the N20 Croom bypass and also the M21 junction severs it. The line from Patrickswell into the city winds through housing estates and over level crossings and I believe the staff canteen is built on it at Limerick.
It's a non-starter for those reasons and also because there would be uproar if a second route to Limerick from Cork was built, given that it would save mere minutes.
There are far more important projects to invest in, this one is as much Pie in the Sky as Sligo to Galway

It's old ground we have been over this several times before.

perhaps it is impractical, but as long as it is impractical, then the M20 is also impractical.

corktina

Perhaps you'd like to explain that? No-one is going to die because we don't re-open this line, people will die if something isn't done to improve the N20

Copyerselveson

corktina wrote: »

Perhaps you'd like to explain that? No-one is going to die because we don't re-open this line, people will die if something isn't done to improve the N20

I'm more interested as to where the "uproar" will come from if it were. Would there be a mass protest down Pana?

corktina

Copyerselveson wrote: »

I'm more interested as to where the "uproar" will come from if it were. Would there be a mass protest down Pana?

I'd say all those who thought it was a waste of money and those who would prefer one rail link to be built for them before a second is built for Cork to Limerick might have something to say

Vanquished

cgcsb wrote: »

perhaps it is impractical, but as long as it is impractical, then the M20 is also impractical.

A bafflingly illogical statement! It smacks of "well if I can't have my railway then you can't have your motorway!":o

Are you seriously suggesting that a western rail corridor mark two type project (where much of the alignment has been lost anyhow!) is a more worthy one than replacing one of the worst and most dangerous stretches of national primary route in the country?!

Copyerselveson

Vanquished wrote: »

A bafflingly illogical statement! It smacks of "well if I can't have my railway then you can't have your motorway!":o

Are you seriously suggesting that a western rail corridor mark two type project (where much of the alignment has been lost anyhow!) is a more worthy one than replacing one of the worst and most dangerous stretches of national primary route in the country?!

I don't think anyone is saying not to replace the N20 with a decent road - people have to realise that the debate is not whether to have railways or motorways, but to allow some of us to point out that an integrated transport system where motorways and railways work in tandem is not only desirable and a prize but essential.

The expense of motorways is hardly ever raised but the expense of railways is.

corktina

Railways and Motorways are mutually exclusive. They cannot work in tandem, you either use one or the other. By all means improve the major links and the commuter lines, but investment in other areas would be largely wasted

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

Railways and Motorways are mutually exclusive. They cannot work in tandem, you either use one or the other. By all means improve the major links and the commuter lines, but investment in other areas would be largely wasted

no investment on the current rail network that allows higher speeds and more frequent services is a waste, it needs to be done on all lines and not the ones IE prefer while leaving the ones they don't want to operate to rot

Vanquished

I have no problem whatsoever with investment in rail where it's warranted like in Dublin and parts of the intercity network. However it cannot be argued under any circumstances that a new greenfield rail link between Charleville and Limerick is justified now or indeed for a very long time in to the future. We'd be far better off double-tracking Killonan junction to Limerick junction!

The population density simply doesn't exist to make such a route viable. Our planning and growth strategies should be geared towards promoting and fostering development in urban areas so we can achieve the necessary critical mass to make projects and services like this sustainable.

Sadly we don't seem to possess the will to implement such a strategy in Ireland. Too many people still want to live on half an acre at a comfortable distance outside the local town or village yet still expect to receive the types of services associated with urban living.

Until this type of mindset changes you can forget about it!

pigtown

cgcsb wrote: »

A full motorway M20 could have journey times of 50 minutes, IÉ needs to plan for this if they are to retain a decent portion of the market.

I'd love to know why a rail line wasn't costed as part of the M20. It could run along the median (assuming it was feasible). At the very least they should buy enough land to construct it in the future.

monument wrote: »

The "Dublin gets everything" view is incorrect -- it's become a highly sick part of our political system.

Is this view actually common though? I don't live in Dublin and don't think I've ever had a conversation about what Dublin gets, apart from my opinion of them when I first use them.

Jamie2k9

corktina wrote: »

Perhaps you'd like to explain that? No-one is going to die because we don't re-open this line, people will die if something isn't done to improve the N20

Yes of course the road is to blame for 100% of road deaths in Ireland, people will still die on the M/N20 when rebuild. People are the problem.......

corktina

motorways are a very safe form of transport. The opening of them is mostly responsible for the reduction in road deaths, although the RSA claim responsibilityfor this.

handlemaster

all talk. We need the Chinese to come in a build it within 12 months and half the cost.

Jamie2k9

corktina wrote: »

motorways are a very safe form of transport. The opening of them is mostly responsible for the reduction in road deaths, although the RSA claim responsibilityfor this.

Not disputing that its a safe mode of transport but look at the stats and see why people are being killed on roads, motorways have little responsible for the reduction as the most deaths don't happen on primary roads. Its regional and country ones most. It's people being caught and stricter road rules.

No reason why it needs to be a motorway, they could just rebuild the whole road better and have all towns bypassed, hard should and sections of the road that may need to be 2+1 carriageway but people will still be killed on the road whenever it opens. It's fact until people change their behaviour road deaths won't drop.

robd

pigtown wrote: »

I'd love to know why a rail line wasn't costed as part of the M20. It could run along the median (assuming it was feasible). At the very least they should buy enough land to construct it in the future.

I'd love to know what the point of M20 between Limerick and Cork and a rail link along it has to do with Dart Underground in Dublin.

This thread is quickly descending to levels of mass irrelevance to the topic.

MGWR

cgcsb wrote: »

DART Underground is only part of (granted the most expensive part of) a new DART newtwork, which also involves electrification to Drogheda, Hazelhatch, Maynooth/Dunboyne. All in all it's a lot of money to reinvent the DART probably more than double metro's price tag and by far the most expensive of the big infrastructure projects, so a commitment to it would be very positive indeed.

Also by the time the next rolling stock replacement on the ICN takes place, IÉ has high hopes of electrifying Dublin-Cork & Galway, 200km/h+ speeds and double tracking to Athlone & Beyond so that may also be a feature of rail investment

That's not a new network, but electrification of an extant network. And last I heard, the electrification on the Northern Line was supposed to end at Balbriggan instead of Drogheda. Neither Balbriggan nor Hazelhatch are good stations for termini. I also do not see anyone wishing to ride to Drogheda on an 8100-class EMU, too; there is a certain level of comfort that one needs if one is riding a train over the ten-mile mark, and so far, none of the DART EMUs have it, and only a few have the top speed to be relatively competitive over such a distance.

IE always seems to have "high hopes" of making it into the latter half of the 20th century; 125 mph (200 km/h) top speed on the rails as best practice was achieved by the 1970s. Replacing rolling stock too frequently simply to waste money will merely get the country back into the doldrums, especially since such spending would be coupled by other government waste.

KCAccidental

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not disputing that its a safe mode of transport but look at the stats and see why people are being killed on roads, motorways have little responsible for the reduction as the most deaths don't happen on primary roads. Its regional and country ones most. It's people being caught and stricter road rules.

No reason why it needs to be a motorway, they could just rebuild the whole road better and have all towns bypassed, hard should and sections of the road that may need to be 2+1 carriageway but people will still be killed on the road whenever it opens. It's fact until people change their behaviour road deaths won't drop.

well that's the point. People are dying on the N20 at points where the road is at the level of a regional or country road. Some parts of the N20 are in an atrocious condition.

Also 2+1 was trialled on the N20 and has been an abject failure. Causing more deaths.

Heisenberg1

MGWR wrote: »

That's not a new network, but electrification of an extant network. And last I heard, the electrification on the Northern Line was supposed to end at Balbriggan instead of Drogheda. Neither Balbriggan nor Hazelhatch are good stations for termini. I also do not see anyone wishing to ride to Drogheda on an 8100-class EMU, too; there is a certain level of comfort that one needs if one is riding a train over the ten-mile mark, and so far, none of the DART EMUs have it, and only a few have the top speed to be relatively competitive over such a distance.

IE always seems to have "high hopes" of making it into the latter half of the 20th century; 125 mph (200 km/h) top speed on the rails as best practice was achieved by the 1970s. Replacing rolling stock too frequently simply to waste money will merely get the country back into the doldrums, especially since such spending would be coupled by other government waste.

That's nonsense regarding the DART to Drogheda and comfort over the ten mile mark. The Central Line on the Tube is over 30miles long without a change and I would consider the DART more comfortable than the Tube.