Irish Scrumhalves

jamiedav2011

DeDoc wrote: »

He has improved hugely, and is comfortably our best option at 9. But he is nowhere near world class by any reasonable definition (e.g. he'd have a legitimate claim to be in the top 3 in the world). In fact you could make a decent argument for him not being in the top 10 in the world right now. Off the top of my head, I'd prefer Pienaar, du Preez, Smith (NZ), Care, Youngs, Phillips, Genia, Parra, Doussain, Fo'atuili, Machenaud, Paillague

We just don't do really good nines in the country, much the same way as France don't go good tens.

My main issue with him is that he is still too slow at getting to rucks, and in what is probably related, doesn't boss his pack as much as I'd like. The good news is that he's a good athlete, relatively young and those deficiencies are potentially quite fixable.

How many of those you've named had a better year though, which is what I said? (I didn't say he was the best in the world, nor do I think that)

.ak

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

Serious work to be done.. Marmion and Hart need to be fast tracked..

Cooney and McGrath need to be given more opportunities at Leinster.

Not much can be done up at Ulster.. Pienaar and Marshall are locked in.

Think Heaney looks good.

PlayerTrader13

.ak wrote: »

Think Heaney looks good.

I'd agree to extent but Porter seems to be rated higher than him by most Ulster fans and he has essentially no chance of being first choice at Ulster until he is at least 26 until then he is fighting for a bench spot with Marshall.

Pienaar and Marshall are signed until May 2017.

phog

.ak wrote: »

I don't buy that. I'm talking about just his positioning, i.e; getting to the breakdown or being at the breakdown.

How many of those were becuase he was under or involved in the previous ruck? If he's used in the ruck the don't blame him for not being at the next one.

bilston

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

I'd agree to extent but Porter seems to be rated higher than him by most Ulster fans and he has essentially no chance of being first choice at Ulster until he is at least 26 until then he is fighting for a bench spot with Marshall.

Pienaar and Marshall are signed until May 2017.

Heaney is alright but I wouldn't get carried away. He's had good games and bad games, no surprise I suppose at this stage in his career but we'll see how he develops. To be fair I thought Murray was a terrible scrum half at U20 level!

Porter I think is just on a short term contract which probably runs out soon, I think it was really just as early season cover while Pienaar was playing for SA.

Marshall is at best a good bench option for Ireland but I don't think Schmidt will ever use him like that.

I like the look of Shannahan (thanks Leinster). He has only had a 10 minute cameo for Ulster but was quick to the breakdown and his pass was fast and accurate, I think he even put in a good tackle. He played very well in the JWC as well. Obviously he looks about 14 but it will be interesting to see how he goes over the next year or two.

.ak

phog wrote: »

How many of those were becuase he was under or involved in the previous ruck? If he's used in the ruck the don't blame him for not being at the next one.

I know what you're saying. Our platform was cack. But that's not what I'm getting at. As a scrumhalf when you get the ball away you need to be positioning yourself for the next breakdown. This part of Murray's game wasn't great. He also did the whole taking steps before passing thing which killed any momentum we had. He also had a terrible habit of getting caught in two minds when in their 22.

He's ironed a lot of this out, but the response I originally posted was to a post saying was it not beneficial to be throwing him in the deep end to develop him into the player he is now. The answer is no; he suffered under Kidney (not all of it was his fault, as you say), and simply giving him more caps didn't solve that. Two things really helped him out; playing under Penney, and TOL leaving Munster.

jamiedav2011

.ak wrote: »

I know what you're saying. Our platform was cack. But that's not what I'm getting at. As a scrumhalf when you get the ball away you need to be positioning yourself for the next breakdown. This part of Murray's game wasn't great. He also did the whole taking steps before passing thing which killed any momentum we had. He also had a terrible habit of getting caught in two minds when in their 22.

He's ironed a lot of this out, but the response I originally posted was to a post saying was it not beneficial to be throwing him in the deep end to develop him into the player he is now. The answer is no; he suffered under Kidney (not all of it was his fault, as you say), and simply giving him more caps didn't solve that. Two things really helped him out; playing under Penney, and TOL leaving Munster.

You don't think gaining experience in the international game had a huge impact on him as a player? I certainly do.

DeDoc

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

How many of those you've named had a better year though, which is what I said? (I didn't say he was the best in the world, nor do I think that)

I haven't watched enough games this year by all of those players to say who's had a better year with any certainty. But if you asked me to sign up scrumhalves for my fantasy team based on what I'd seen of all of the above over the last 2 or 3 years and who I thought I'd want in my team, I think I'd take most/all of those listed. I would certainly acknowledge that several of those - e.g. Phillips, Care and Youngs have had their dips in form, while Murrays graph has generally been on the up.

phog wrote: »

How many of those were becuase he was under or involved in the previous ruck? If he's used in the ruck the don't blame him for not being at the next one.

I can't agree 100%. A nine can end up at the bottom of a ruck because his forwards underperform, or because of poor tactics by the coach. Both of these may have had a degree of truth in his career to date. But they are by no means the whole picture. Nines can make bad choices too though (something Murray has really improved IMO) that lead to them getting stuck. The nine also has a responsibility to NOT get stuck in the ruck, so he is available for his primary duty at the next phase - and that means making those choices better, but also bossing his pack around (something again that Murray has improved, but can still improve more IMO).
Other issues around his technical play - e.g. stepping before passing, and his feet position/set-up he has improved hugely too.

to be fair - when he first came on the scene, he looked to me like TOL Mk II - great rugby player, but not a good nine. Most of his position specific skills he has developed in leaps and bounds, and one can reasonably hope that he continues developing on the tactical and control side.

PlayerTrader13

bilston wrote: »

I like the look of Shannahan (thanks Leinster). He has only had a 10 minute cameo for Ulster but was quick to the breakdown and his pass was fast and accurate, I think he even put in a good tackle. He played very well in the JWC as well. Obviously he looks about 14 but it will be interesting to see how he goes over the next year or two.

Baffling considering our lack of depth that we never offered him a spot..

it's not like we are over flowing with options in the under-age system either.. maybe Nick McCarthy or Tim Schmidt.. both are ages away though..

Frankly I think Leinster should be forced to move Boss on, maybe to Connacht. Let Reddan who is younger assume the number 1 spot and allow Cooney and McGrath to start to get some serious experience starting next season.

Mahatma Geansai

When Murray is missing from the breakdown, it is because he was an auxillary flanker at the previous ruck and had to go in and secure the ball. It slows us down on occasion, but I'd rather slow ball than losing possession.

jamiedav2011

DeDoc wrote: »

I haven't watched enough games this year by all of those players to say who's had a better year with any certainty. But if you asked me to sign up scrumhalves for my fantasy team based on what I'd seen of all of the above over the last 2 or 3 years and who I thought I'd want in my team, I think I'd take most/all of those listed. I would certainly acknowledge that several of those - e.g. Phillips, Care and Youngs have had their dips in form, while Murrays graph has generally been on the up.

That's fair enough, I would too, but you'd be underselling Murray if you said he wasn't one of the top international SHs in the world form wise in 2013. The three you mentioned above all had dips, so too did, most notably, Genia and Foutali'i (two I rate incredibly high), while the likes of Pienaar, Du Preez, Parra were all good, albeit didn't hit the heights of Murray for me.

The rest (Machenaud, Paillauge, Doussain etc) aren't in that league for me. Probably Smith is the standout of the year.

Really think we could have stumbled upon a diamond and we're slightly downplaying it in true Irish fashion.

.ak

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

When Murray is missing from the breakdown, it is because he was an auxillary flanker at the previous ruck and had to go in and secure the ball. It slows us down on occasion, but I'd rather slow ball than losing possession.

It absolutely killed us tho. A lot of times he was getting sucked into rucks when he didn't need to.

.ak

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

You don't think gaining experience in the international game had a huge impact on him as a player? I certainly do.

I do too, but it's a grey area. A huge impact allright, but a positive one? Not necessarily.

phog

.ak wrote: »

I know what you're saying. Our platform was cack. But that's not what I'm getting at. As a scrumhalf when you get the ball away you need to be positioning yourself for the next breakdown. This part of Murray's game wasn't great. He also did the whole taking steps before passing thing which killed any momentum we had. He also had a terrible habit of getting caught in two minds when in their 22.

He's ironed a lot of this out, but the response I originally posted was to a post saying was it not beneficial to be throwing him in the deep end to develop him into the player he is now. The answer is no; he suffered under Kidney (not all of it was his fault, as you say), and simply giving him more caps didn't solve that. Two things really helped him out; playing under Penney, and TOL leaving Munster.

I don't accept he suffered under Kidney, I think he actually progressed under Kidney, so much so he got a Lions tour from his performances.

PlayerTrader13

.ak wrote: »

I do too, but it's a grey area. A huge impact allright, but a positive one? Not necessarily.

I think most of his improvements have come down to better coaching and hard work by Murray himself. He has started to really improve his basics of scrumhalf play and hopefully under the guidance of Joe and Penny he can really start to push on and improve the little things that make players world class, that along with improved consistency and we will be onto a winner..

PlayerTrader13

phog wrote: »

I don't accept he suffered under Kidney, I think he actually progressed under Kidney, so much so he got a Lions tour from his performances.

i'm not sure how Kidney can be credited with his improvement.. the national coach who is renowned for being hands off in regards to coaching hardly had that much impact..

Rob Penny on the other hand..

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

i'm not sure how Kidney can be credited with his improvement.. the national coach who is renowned for being hands off in regards to coaching hardly had that much impact..

Rob Penny on the other hand..

Well he certainly played well and improved drastically for Ireland under Kidney

i'm not sure how you can say that Kidney can have "hardly that much impact" on his development. I'm sure Murray would be able to tell us who has helped, but as for us knowing it's all just guesswork

phog

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

i'm not sure how Kidney can be credited with his improvement.. the national coach who is renowned for being hands off in regards to coaching hardly had that much impact..

Rob Penny on the other hand..

Ok it wasn't Kidney but he certainly progressed while playing for Ireland, don't know or care who should be credited.

dmcc13

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11168826

Just saw that Gregor Paul in the NZ Herald team of the year included Conor Murray.......pretty ringing endorsement from the famously parochial New Zealand Press

PlayerTrader13

Seems like he got based on one performance.. also notes what everyone has been saying needs more consistentcy and accuracy

jamiedav2011

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

Seems like he got based on one performance.. also notes what everyone has been saying needs more consistentcy and accuracy

Where does your thinly veiled spitefulness come from?

PlayerTrader13

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Where does your thinly veiled spitefulness come from?

Amazingly I'm not going to buy into the hype that murray is the best sh in the world based off one performance and a decent lions tour..

.ak

Attack the post, not the posters folks.

jamiedav2011

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

Amazingly I'm not going to buy into the hype that murray is the best sh in the world based off one performance and a decent lions tour..

One poster said he's 'possibly' the best in the world.

He has been one of the form international SHs this year though, so it's hardly a surprise for him to be picked in a team of the year.

Tox56

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

Amazingly I'm not going to buy into the hype that murray is the best sh in the world based off one performance and a decent lions tour..

He wasn't bad in the 6 Nations either. Or for Munster in the H Cup knock-outs.

I actually agree that someone like Gregor Paul is basing it mostly on one game, but he gets to the right place in the end, Murray's improvement this year has been pretty remarkable

sydthebeat

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

Seems like he got based on one performance.. also notes what everyone has been saying needs more consistentcy and accuracy

so Murray is top two of the best SHs in the world........

PlayerTrader13

Tox56 wrote: »

He wasn't bad in the 6 Nations either. Or for Munster in the H Cup knock-outs.

I actually agree that someone like Gregor Paul is basing it mostly on one game, but he gets to the right place in the end, Murray's improvement this year has been pretty remarkable

Never said he hasn't improved, clearly he has but he is still a few steps away from being the best in the world

dmcc13

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

Seems like he got based on one performance.. also notes what everyone has been saying needs more consistentcy and accuracy

Tbh your correct.

But he was harshly treated by a lot of the irish public after that game...i thought he was outstanding and there was a lot of emphasis by people (particularly those at the game) that his box kick at the end lost it for us, when in fact we won the ball back from that particular kick.

I think he has the potential to be the best SH we have ever had....but its as you said he needs to be more consistant.

Snickers Man

clsmooth wrote: »

Was a very good player and I remember him in particular having a great game v France (maybe in 98?). Had to retire early due to injury.

He did play well in that match but then so did the other 14 + subs. That was Gatland's first game in charge, following Brian Ashton's departure after a dreadful spiritless home defeat to Scotland. In the early years of professionalism, England and France were so far ahead of the Celtic Nations that they were whinging about being held back and should really ditch the Five Nations (as was) and play more against the Southern Hemisphere. (How familiar does THAT sound???)

Prior to that French match, serious commentators were predicting as a distinct probability that France would put 100 points on Ireland. But the Irish went out that day and frightened the life out of them. McGuinness did indeed play well, making one great break that typically cack handed Irish midfield passing of the time screwed up with an empty line beckoning.

Would that performance have been enough to make him an "all time great" though? That's my point. I'm not saying that ALL those scrum halves were bad players. But most of them never got beyond the status of "solid" or "promising".

As one sage on another code might say, in paraphrase: "A good scrum half, not a great scrum half"

gaius c

Oh goody. A Conor Murray-bashing thread.
Do we have to put our provincial allegiances at the end of our posts? It's a handy way to filter out obvious WUM's.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

gaius c wrote: »

Oh goody. A Conor Murray-bashing thread.
Do we have to put our provincial allegiances at the end of our posts? It's a handy way to filter out obvious WUM's.

This coming form the poster who called Geordon Murphy "turnstiles" :rolleyes:

gaius c

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

This coming form the poster who called Geordon Murphy "turnstiles" :rolleyes:

And ROG is "Doormat". So.....?
If Murphy had actually contributed anything positive to Ireland, he'd get some slack but right now, he owes us two grand slams and a triple crown.
Like it as not but Murray is a fine young player chucked in at the deep end and forced to learn on the job, which he has done fairly well with. Irish rugby is littered with young scrum halves who were tried and discarded when they didn't work out. I can provide exhaustive lists from the 90's alone.

Do I know you btw? You must have me in some filofax for naughty people if you can remember posts by me from yonks back?

Foxtrol

gaius c wrote: »

Oh goody. A Conor Murray-bashing thread.
Do we have to put our provincial allegiances at the end of our posts? It's a handy way to filter out obvious WUM's.

Not agreeing that a player is the best in the world ≠ bashing

Can definitely see that Murray becoming the best Irish scrum half ever and one of the top 3 SH in the world over the next few years but he still has more to do.

I think believing that dropping him in early during the WC was a major factor in where he is now is silly talk really, the only thing we can tell for definite is about how he performed during his early days and a lot of times it wasn't to the level it should have been.

gaius c

Foxtrol wrote: »

Not agreeing that a player is the best in the world ≠ bashing

Can definitely see that Murray becoming the best Irish scrum half ever and one of the top 3 SH in the world over the next few years but he still has more to do.

I think believing that dropping him in early during the WC was a major factor in where he is now is silly talk really, the only thing we can tell for definite is about how he performed during his early days and a lot of times it wasn't to the level it should have been.

With the quality and age profiles of the alternatives, we didn't really have a lot of choice and the fact that he could actually be seriously put up as one of our top scrum halves already shows our obvious weakness in the position.

Let's talk about other SH's. Who to be the backup to Murray in years to come? Marmion? McGrath? Cooney? Sheridan? Heaney?
Just worried that we'll have a ROG-type (or even Stringer-type) situation with no backup (or keeping him honest) to the main guy for years on end.

ScissorPaperRock

gaius c wrote: »

Oh goody. A Conor Murray-bashing thread.
Do we have to put our provincial allegiances at the end of our posts? It's a handy way to filter out obvious WUM's.

Have you even read the thread? It's more of a Conor Murray swooning thread than anything!

gaius c

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Have you even read the thread? It's more of a Conor Murray swooning thread than anything!

God no. You actually want me to trawl through it and read more than the last page?

ScissorPaperRock

gaius c wrote: »

God no. You actually want me to trawl through it and read more than the last page?

Nah, I don't really care!

It just explains why your post doesn't make any sense.

.ak

gaius c wrote: »

Oh goody. A Conor Murray-bashing thread.
Do we have to put our provincial allegiances at the end of our posts? It's a handy way to filter out obvious WUM's.

Snide provincial sniping is not welcome. If you have a problem with posts then report them and we'll look at them, but accusing posters of being WUMs is not tolerated.

Bridge93

I don't believe we will have a ROG type scenario at scrum half. Marmion could be a very good player in his own right and has shown glimpses already.

Bridge93

I think it could be argued that Marmion is as good if not better than Murray was at 22

gaius c

Bridge93 wrote: »

I don't believe we will have a ROG type scenario at scrum half. Marmion could be a very good player in his own right and has shown glimpses already.

It might be unfair to tar a player based on one incident but I'd have real concerns about a back who got burned for speed by ROG.

siltirocker

Bridge93 wrote: »

I think it could be argued that Marmion is as good if not better than Murray was at 22

+1 I'd very much be in that camp. However Murray has come on bounds in the last 9 months.

Tox56

Bridge93 wrote: »

I think it could be argued that Marmion is as good if not better than Murray was at 22

Murray was a late bloomer so it's not a great comparison. Marmion may be ahead of where Murray was at 22 but he will be doing seriously well to be where Murray is at 24 (i.e one of the best 9s in the world)

Another point about Marmion is that he does so much of his great work behind an over-matched and beleaguered Connacht pack. Ironically, to a certain extent I actually think it will stand to him long term in terms of how scrappy it's made him, and how physical he's capable of being.

I think he fully deserves the opportunity to step up at this point in his career though. On form, I think he's been superior to Boss & Reddan over the past 6-9 months (I know both Boss & Reddan have suffered injuries in that period), and I think he's already shown more even at this stage than Paul Marshall ever has.

Murray is deservedly entrenched as first choice nine, but I'd like to see Marmion involved in the 6N as a back up and for the opportunity to develop further.

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

Another point about Marmion is that he does so much of his great work behind an over-matched and beleaguered Connacht pack. Ironically, to a certain extent I actually think it will stand to him long term in terms of how scrappy it's made him, and how physical he's capable of being.

I think he fully deserves the opportunity to step up at this point in his career though. On form, I think he's been superior to Boss & Reddan over the past 6-9 months (I know both Boss & Reddan have suffered injuries in that period), and I think he's already shown more even at this stage than Paul Marshall ever has.

Murray is deservedly entrenched as first choice nine, but I'd like to see Marmion involved in the 6N as a back up and for the opportunity to develop further.

I think it’s has helped him in some respects but has also hurt him in others.

I don’t think he’s been given the opportunity to show how he’d perform in a high tempo style of game plan and this has gone against him when it came to selection in the AI’s. I’m sure he’ll be brought into the Irish set up soon but without exposure to that sort of system it’s going to slow the speed in which he’s introduced to the Irish side and his general development.

Mahatma Geansai

If Murray was a Connacht player, he would have broken through much sooner. Young players break through much sooner when there isn't much talent ahead of them.

former legend

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

If Murray was a Connacht player, he would have broken through much sooner. Young players break through much sooner when there isn't much talent ahead of them.

That got my day off to a flyer, absolutely top-notch humour.

former legend

http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/top-14/2013-2014/james-hart-la-nouvelle-pepite-qui-fait-battre-le-coeur-de-grenoble_sto4056492/story.shtml

Lengthy piece on James Hart here, you can google translate it if you dare, a couple of snippets though:

In 2007, at the age of only 16, he went to Toulouse, home of his maternal grandparents, to develop his rugby. But on return to Ireland, the cold shoulder. Hart joined the Leinster youth system, where he would stay for two and a half years, but after missing out on selection for the Ireland U20s, he was not accepted into the Leinster Academy.

His performances have not gone unnoticed in Ireland. The player knows that his name has recently crossed Joe Schmidt's desk who could call on him for the "summer tour". Ironically, the Grenoble scrum-hald was also contacted by the "club of his heart", Leinster, who had previously rejected him.

Signed to Grenoble until 2017, he renewed his development contract in October and will become a full professional next season.

Jame Hart wrote:

I love the Top 14 and proving to those who discarded me that they were wrong is today a source of motivation.
One day, maybe, I'll go back to Ireland.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

former legend wrote: »

That got my day off to a flyer, absolutely top-notch humour.

Well he's got a point. Murray had Stringer and TOL ahead of him whereas Marmion had Frank Murphy

former legend

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Well he's got a point. Murray had Stringer and TOL ahead of him whereas Marmion had Frank Murphy

Perhaps Murray would have broken into his provincial team sooner.

Would he have been parachuted into the national team in the same manner if he had been a Connacht player? Would he f**k.