Vegetable Price War in Supermarkets - Good or Bad?

golfwallah

Of late, we've all noticed the ridiculously low prices for vegetables in Dunnes, Lidl, etc. Good for the consumer in the immediate short term, but ruinous for producers, who have become pawns in a supermarket price war for market share.

I gather from the radio that a lot of these vegetables are coming in from abroad. If true, this amounts to dumping and is unlikely to benefit the consumer in the long run.

Anyone have views on what is happening and how our home producers can protect themselves from aggressive market activity like this (especially when thousands of jobs could be at risk, if it continues)?

I'm all for competition but this is crazy!

Here's a link to an Indo article on the subject: http://www.independent.ie/incoming/five-cent-veggie-price-wars-very-aggressive-minister-29849272.html

creedp

golfwallah wrote: »

Of late, we've all noticed the ridiculously low prices for vegetables in Dunnes, Lidl, etc. Good for the consumer in the immediate short term, but ruinous for producers, who have become pawns in a supermarket price war for market share.

I gather from the radio that a lot of these vegetables are coming in from abroad. If true, this amounts to dumping and is unlikely to benefit the consumer in the long run.

Anyone have views on what is happening and how our home producers can protect themselves from aggressive market activity like this (especially when thousands of jobs could be at risk, if it continues)?

I'm all for competition but this is crazy!

Here's a link to an Indo article on the subject: http://www.independent.ie/incoming/five-cent-veggie-price-wars-very-aggressive-minister-29849272.html

Seems to me that this is the great unfettered market in action - what is the solution - Govt inervention? Unfortunately, most people want the opposite these days.

Mr.Micro

creedp wrote: »

Seems to me that this is the great unfettered market in action - what is the solution - Govt inervention? Unfortunately, most people want the opposite these days.

I doubt it will last long. We pay through the nose for most goods and food, so don't expect this vegetable price war to last.

golfwallah

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I doubt it will last long. We pay through the nose for most goods and food, so don't expect this vegetable price war to last.

I gather it will last until Christmas at least and Lidl say they are carrying the cost of the discount ..... but early days yet!!

Mr.Micro

golfwallah wrote: »

I gather it will last until Christmas at least and Lidl say they are carrying the cost of the discount ..... but early days yet!!

We might as well make the most of it, I guess? More vegetables anyone.

dlouth15

The alternative is low prices paid to producers and a large mark-up for the consumer such as I believe is the case in milk. Retailers will always seek the lowest wholesale price. I don't foresee a day when supermarkets will pay a penny more than they have to for their stock.

ScottSF

Mr.Micro wrote: »

We might as well make the most of it, I guess? More vegetables anyone.

I agree, on the positive side people might start eating healthier. I've noticed some lower prices too and bought vegetables more often recently. I didn't think about it at the time. Maybe we'll get in the habit of eating more produce (Irish grown if possible) in the New Year.

macraignil

I started a thread in this forum earlier in the year related to this one. I asked if the european CAP (Common Agricultural Policy) was contributing to depressing the economies of countries that are less industrialised and more dependant on employment in agriculture. CAP payments are larger for bigger farmers and have allowed more investment in machinery that reduces the need for labour in producing food and allows cheaper prices in supermarkets. Cheap vegetables are great for the modern urban population, but a disaster for rural employment as only large mechanised producers can hope to make a profitable business.

If you are worried about this, get your vegetables at a local farmers market. Your local grower will not be able to compete with the supermarket in price, but if you can afford it, you can help protect jobs in rural Ireland. Even better again you could try to find an allotment, or if you have a home with a reasonable sized garden, grow your own vegetables. The housing now permitted in Ireland does not allow garden space like this, and in the current economic climate I'm not sure that many people in Ireland can still afford to do their shopping with a social conscience. While cheap food is good, I think it's bad that most people in this country no longer have a choice in how they get their food.

ebbsy

What about the cheap booze then ? A lot of people seem to be in no hurry to deal with that.......they must be getting paid off.

andrew

So the firms that can produce cheap vegetables will survive and those which can't will go under. So what? If people want to buy more expensive veg, they can still do so if they want. Consumers are/should be under no obligation to keep anyone in a job.

enricoh

Nah, i'm against it, its destroying jobs in rural areas that are badly needed .
Growing vedg is a very labour intensive area n good for unskilled labour.
Renting an acre of glasshouses now is nearly the same price as renting an acre of land due to there being no dough in it. 6 cent for a bag of carrots or sprouts devalues the industry n will leave no one growing vedg in the country.
So what I hear people say- but not everyone can be a computer programmer n farmers wont leave to outsource if the corporation tax goes up!

dlouth15

andrew wrote: »

So the firms that can produce cheap vegetables will survive and those which can't will go under. So what? If people want to buy more expensive veg, they can still do so if they want. Consumers are/should be under no obligation to keep anyone in a job.

The producers themselves are not being asked to bear the cost of this. it is purely a retail price war. What the growers themselves are complaining about is that the price ware is "devaluing" their industry. Unfortunately farmers also complain when supermarkets significantly mark up products. There is a danger that people will stop listening to them.

enricoh

dlouth15 wrote: »

The producers themselves are not being asked to bear the cost of this. it is purely a retail price war. What the growers themselves are complaining about is that the price ware is "devaluing" their industry. Unfortunately farmers also complain when supermarkets significantly mark up products. There is a danger that people will stop listening to them.

According to the supermarkets they' re not. In reality they are. say a spud man speaks out in the media about supermarket mark up on a 10kg bag of spuds- every load after that is rejected on quality grounds. a couple of million of a loan wouldnt look at the machinery n bagging plant- so he darent speak.

dlouth15

enricoh wrote: »

According to the supermarkets they' re not. In reality they are. say a spud man speaks out in the media about supermarket mark up on a 10kg bag of spuds- every load after that is rejected on quality grounds. a couple of million of a loan wouldnt look at the machinery n bagging plant- so he darent speak.

As far as I'm aware, it's not being refuted by the IFA.

golfwallah

Farmers have been protesting by buying up cut price vegetables in Dunnes Stores & Lidl and giving them away to passers by.

Fair play to them for fighting their corner! But will it work?

Will be interesting to see if Minister Bruton brings in regulations on this issue, as reported: http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1219/493839-farmers-protest/

timetogo

golfwallah wrote: »

Farmers have been protesting by buying up cut price vegetables in Dunnes Stores & Lidl and giving them away to passers by.

Fair play to them for fighting their corner! But will it work?

Will be interesting to see if Minister Bruton brings in regulations on this issue, as reported: http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1219/493839-farmers-protest/

What's that achieving though?

golfwallah

timetogo wrote: »

What's that achieving though?

In the short run, publicity.

In the long run, time will tell.

antoobrien

dlouth15 wrote: »

The producers themselves are not being asked to bear the cost of this.

According to the IFA, in at least some cases, yes they are.

The IFA said some potato farmers had seen prices slashed from €250 a tonne to €120 in the last week as a result of supermarket discounts.

kevohmsford

I think this situation is a disgrace. Sure the consumer is getting cheap vegetables but the farmers are losing out big time.
I fully support the farmers protesting.

andrew

Woah. Woah. Wait. Let me get this straight. They're complaining, not because they're actually getting less money for their goods (mostly), but because they think that low price veg will change people's perception of veg? What? Is that it? That's what they're protesting against? They're saying 'veg should be marginally more expensive than it currently is' literally 'just because.' How do they think people currently perceive veg?

I could understand if they were getting less money for their veg. I'd still disagree, but at least I'd understand it. But I really don't get this. And that they think they should have some say over the pricing of their produce once they've sold it is mind boggling, and to think they think there should be government regulation for veg prices is genuinely one of the stupidest, most self entitled, rent seeking, this-is-what-is-wrong-with-this-country things I have ever heard of. They're making taxi drivers look like paragons of free-market advocacy.

antoobrien

andrew wrote: »

They're saying 'veg should be marginally more expensive than it currently is' literally 'just because.' How do they think people currently perceive veg?

No, they're saying that they're losing money because of below cost selling.

Scortho

antoobrien wrote: »

No, they're saying that they're losing money because of below cost selling.

Surely it's the market setting the price, the market being the wholesaler they're selling too.

Or are we to start having prices below which every good and service cannot be sold at, even if I want to sell them below the price.

andrew

antoobrien wrote: »

No, they're saying that they're losing money because of below cost selling.

As this article notes, only some farmers have actually seen their wholesale prices fall. In the main, that doesn't appear to be their complaint.

macraignil

I'm all for cheap vegetable prices and will be buying some of the cheaper vegetables when they are available. I'm against billions of euros from public money being paid in greater proportions to larger farmers through CAP(Common Agricultural Policy) so they can buy machinery and land to put smaller farmers out of business with these lower prices. Why not channel at least some of this money so it has to be used to promote rural empoyment?
We are also channeling billions of euros to support banks that set unrealistic values on property. This has led to residential property in Ireland reaching values far higher than what people on average wages could afford. It also has led to many businesses closing with the assistance of crazy legislation like upward only rent agreements. We are not seeing a free market when public money is being used like this, and the average or low paid workers are not benefiting from public money being used like this. The EU with the support of the Irish government is operating to benefit the urbanised core areas at the expense of peripheral areas that depend more on primary production and not manufacturing and financial services.

creedp

macraignil wrote: »

I'm all for cheap vegetable prices and will be buying some of the cheaper vegetables when they are available. I'm against billions of euros from public money being paid in greater proportions to larger farmers through CAP(Common Agricultural Policy) so they can buy machinery and land to put smaller farmers out of business with these lower prices. Why not channel at least some of this money so it has to be used to promote rural empoyment?
We are also channeling billions of euros to support banks that set unrealistic values on property. This has led to residential property in Ireland reaching values far higher than what people on average wages could afford. It also has led to many businesses closing with the assistance of crazy legislation like upward only rent agreements. We are not seeing a free market when public money is being used like this, and the average or low paid workers are not benefiting from public money being used like this. The EU with the support of the Irish government is operating to benefit the urbanised core areas at the expense of peripheral areas that depend more on primary production and not manufacturing and financial services.

Have to say I agree with this. I'm always amazed at the size of the machinery used by farmers these days - it can be difficult to get past a modern day tractor used by ordinary farmers on Irish country roads. Given the constant bleating by the likes of Micheal O'Leary about free enterprise and the market setting prices its surprising he has no difficulty collecting the massive fam subsidies each year for his champagne herd. Is it time to cap the payments made to each farmers allowing the money to be spread more fairly thereby benefiting smaller farmers and local communities?

dlouth15

andrew wrote: »

As this article notes, only some farmers have actually seen their wholesale prices fall. In the main, that doesn't appear to be their complaint.

There's also the wholesaler in this article who says:

Paul Brophy of Iverk Produce last night said neither his company nor its suppliers were bearing the cost of the promotion.

.

Wholesale suppliers such as this would be the first to be hit if supermarkets lowered the price they were willing to pay for vegetables.

SpaceTime

Seems like classic 'loss leader' sales tactics from the supermarkets. Sometimes this kind of things is cheaper than buying adverts on TV or in the press and gets people in the doors to buy other stuff.

That's how large scale retail works!

The supermarkets may well be writing it down as a promotional cost.

I do think farmers should be getting a fair price though and the big retailers shouldn't be so powerful.

What has changed here in the last while though is Aldi and Lidl in the market which has seriously reduced market share for Dunnes and Tesco. So, at least the market's getting shaken up a bit and the dominance of a couple of players is reducing.

nice_guy80

most of these vegetables are actually grown in Holland!!!!

what is happening is that the normal growers are not getting orders from the supermarkets as they cannot produce so cheaply

nice_guy80

macraignil wrote: »

I'm all for cheap vegetable prices and will be buying some of the cheaper vegetables when they are available. I'm against billions of euros from public money being paid in greater proportions to larger farmers through CAP(Common Agricultural Policy) so they can buy machinery and land to put smaller farmers out of business with these lower prices. Why not channel at least some of this money so it has to be used to promote rural empoyment?

so you are blaming farmers for owning large farms and needing large machinery to work them??
wow.

you'll find that most large farmers don't bother with vegetable growing - not enough profit and too labour intensive.
they are usually small farmers, who have a family history growing vegetables

macraignil

nice_guy80 wrote: »

so you are blaming farmers for owning large farms and needing large machinery to work them??
wow.

No I am not blaming farmers for owning large farms and needing machinery to work them, and I never said that. I am critical of the way CAP(Common Agriculture Policy) public funds are allocated so larger farmers are given larger payments with no obligation to create additional rural employment.

Rather than simply capping the payment to farmers, I would be in favor of farmers and farm businesses receiving over a particular level of payment being obliged to create one or more community employment type positions in their business. This might help them add value to what they produce on the farm and reduce the unsustainable levels of unemployment in Ireland.

As food is set to increase in price in coming years, as world population and demand increases, I would hope some of these positions could become real jobs as the farm business grows in the future. I spoke to friends from farming backgrounds about this and they agreed that many older farmers would like this opportunity to pass on the skills of farming to a new generation of younger people, who at the same time could add some imagination and diversification to farm produce.

nice_guy80

macraignil wrote: »

nice_guy80 wrote: »

so you are blaming farmers for owning large farms and needing large machinery to work them??
wow.

No I am not blaming farmers for owning large farms and needing machinery to work them, and I never said that. I am critical of the way CAP(Common Agriculture Policy) public funds are allocated so larger farmers are given larger payments with no obligation to create additional rural employment.

Rather than simply capping the payment to farmers, I would be in favor of farmers and farm businesses receiving over a particular level of payment being obliged to create one or more community employment type positions in their business. This might help them add value to what they produce on the farm and reduce the unsustainable levels of unemployment in Ireland.

As food is set to increase in price in coming years, as world population and demand increases, I would hope some of these positions could become real jobs as the farm business grows in the future. I spoke to friends from farming backgrounds about this and they agreed that many older farmers would like this opportunity to pass on the skills of farming to a new generation of younger people, who at the same time could add some imagination and diversification to farm produce.

ok.
what would these people be doing on these large farms?

macraignil

It would depend on each individual farm, but I would hope they would be learning about farming and how that farm makes money and adding to the existing farm enterprise. As with any business a farm will have a variety of work, that should be done to produce their end product and an additional person working there can help with all of these. There are a number of ways farm produce can have added value and the additional labour could for example produce prepared vegetables rather than bulk product simply by washing and sorting of the crops. Packaging and labelling and even finding better places to sell the farms produce are all possibilities. Processing raw milk to cheese or yoghurt or making jam from berries planted in the hedge rows between fields, or marketing the farms products in local markets or through the internet, or building small scale artisan brands for the farm's produce could also help add to farm income.

There are a number of alternative farm enterprises that on many farms could generate marketable products, without damaging the main farm income. Some of these like free range poultry production might even help the main farm enterprise of dairy or beef production, by reducing the level of parasites that modern farmers need to spend money each year to control. Slurry from livestock might be utilised to produce compost and methane fuel. Crops might be processed further so they can be sold not as raw products, but as packaged consumer goods ready for retail. By-products of the particular farm enterprise like manure could be channelled to produce mushrooms or help with vegetable production.

With so many people from the construction sector currently unemployed farm infrastructure might be improved with improved walls, ditches, animal housing and crop storage facilities. The variety of work possible is far more diverse than I could possibly list here, but one of the main functions of the system I am proposing would be to reduce rural isolation that is a by-product of our current social scheme of increased urbanisation, rural depopulation and replacing farming communities with factory farms requiring expensive mechanisation to maintain competitiveness.

gaius c

If the price war knocks Tesco out, I'm all for it.

Jawgap

If they are using fruit and veg as a loss leader to get people in the door instead of cheap alcohol, I'm all for it.

Also, if it means people end up eating more of the stuff - I'm all for it.

I'm afraid the farmers are on the wrong of the side argument this time.

nice_guy80

macraignil wrote: »

It would depend on each individual farm, but I would hope they would be learning about farming and how that farm makes money and adding to the existing farm enterprise. As with any business a farm will have a variety of work, that should be done to produce their end product and an additional person working there can help with all of these. There are a number of ways farm produce can have added value and the additional labour could for example produce prepared vegetables rather than bulk product simply by washing and sorting of the crops. Packaging and labelling and even finding better places to sell the farms produce are all possibilities. Processing raw milk to cheese or yoghurt or making jam from berries planted in the hedge rows between fields, or marketing the farms products in local markets or through the internet, or building small scale artisan brands for the farm's produce could also help add to farm income.

There are a number of alternative farm enterprises that on many farms could generate marketable products, without damaging the main farm income. Some of these like free range poultry production might even help the main farm enterprise of dairy or beef production, by reducing the level of parasites that modern farmers need to spend money each year to control. Slurry from livestock might be utilised to produce compost and methane fuel. Crops might be processed further so they can be sold not as raw products, but as packaged consumer goods ready for retail. By-products of the particular farm enterprise like manure could be channelled to produce mushrooms or help with vegetable production.

With so many people from the construction sector currently unemployed farm infrastructure might be improved with improved walls, ditches, animal housing and crop storage facilities. The variety of work possible is far more diverse than I could possibly list here, but one of the main functions of the system I am proposing would be to reduce rural isolation that is a by-product of our current social scheme of increased urbanisation, rural depopulation and replacing farming communities with factory farms requiring expensive mechanisation to maintain competitiveness.

do you know the hurdles and regulations each area of farming has, don't you?

I get certified as free range you've to pass all sorts of inspections and quality levels. this could only be achieved with dedicated operations. farmers usually stick to what they know and are generally able to do/good at

Jawgap

nice_guy80 wrote: »

do you know the hurdles and regulations each area of farming has, don't you?

I get certified as free range you've to pass all sorts of inspections and quality levels. this could only be achieved with dedicated operations. farmers usually stick to what they know and are generally able to do/good at

The other problem would be bio-security. I doubt you could successfully mix poultry or pig production with many other productive agricultural activities without wrecking the flock or herd, even if you were producing to an organic standard. But I know very little about farming, so I'm way open to correction on this point.

hfallada

In America regardless of promotion tomatoe farmers get a 2/3 cent a pound of tomatoes that are eventually sold for about $1,50 a can

macraignil

Jawgap wrote: »

The other problem would be bio-security. I doubt you could successfully mix poultry or pig production with many other productive agricultural activities without wrecking the flock or herd, even if you were producing to an organic standard. But I know very little about farming, so I'm way open to correction on this point.

What is bio-security?

Farmers for thousands of years have worked with mixed enterprise farms with numerous benefits. Animals can feed on byproducts of crop production and crops can benefit from manure from animals and grazing of plants that might compete with the crop. I agree that today's direction in the farm industry is for more focused efforts to produce low priced single type produce from the farm.

My point is that I do not think this is the best way for Ireland to develop as it is destroying rural communities and not benefiting the majority of farmers who are small scale when compared to international farming. I agree it is more work to produce multiple crops on a farm and that is the point of the scheme I was proposing.

My suggestion is for a job creation scheme to help farmers with their existing enterprise and produce higher value produce from the farm. Mixed production of different livestock would not suit every farm and I would not suggest telling the farmer what they should produce. Somebody employed by the scheme I am suggesting might simply work to make the existing farm enterprise more efficient. Improvements to existing animal housing, improved fencing or crop storage facilities are some of the possibilities.

The Irish tomato farmer for example might hire somebody through the scheme I am suggesting, to put the tomatos in jars mixed with some herbs and spices and sell these jars of farmhouse relish at the local farmers market or to local hotels and guesthouses or even for export bringing much more cash income to the farm than the two thirds of a cent a pound from just selling the raw vegetable.

Jawgap

Bio-security means keeping certain diseases off farms such as foot and mouth, Newcastle disease (poultry), Schmallenberg virus etc as well as pathogens such as Salmonella, Campylobacter, E. coli O157 etc.

The type of polyculture suggested by the mixed enterprise idea wouldn't give you the scale / intensity needed to keep costs low, which would leave Irish farmers vulnerable to being wiped out by cheap imports.

The example provided of the relish producer would not be viable. There'd be a relatively high fixed cost input, especially if you are exporting, which would need to be spread over a large enough production run. Also even for small scale production you need proper cooking and processing facilities - no point in giving everyone botulism.

macraignil

Jawgap wrote: »

Bio-security means keeping certain diseases off farms such as foot and mouth, Newcastle disease (poultry), Schmallenberg virus etc as well as pathogens such as Salmonella, Campylobacter, E. coli O157 etc.

The type of polyculture suggested by the mixed enterprise idea wouldn't give you the scale / intensity needed to keep costs low, which would leave Irish farmers vulnerable to being wiped out by cheap imports.

The example provided of the relish producer would not be viable. There'd be a relatively high fixed cost input, especially if you are exporting, which would need to be spread over a large enough production run. Also even for small scale production you need proper cooking and processing facilities - no point in giving everyone botulism.

I am not suggesting bringing pathogens onto farms and I am not sure how the scheme I was suggesting would do this. As I said already my suggestion does not rely on mixed animal production.

Mixed farm enterprises are not my idea, but the traditional way farms were organised before increased mechanisation, and many farms still produce more than one crop. Some farms still make a profit when producing more than one type of crop and not being dependant on just one low priced product they are far less likely to be wiped out by cheap imports.

I would not suggest giving anybody botulism. I do agree this example of an alternative farm enterprise would require investment but I am not sure how you can conclude so quickly that it would not be viable. Small scale quality products can sometimes get a higher price that could compensate for smaller scale production costs. What do you mean by high fixed cost input?

Jawgap

macraignil wrote: »

I am not suggesting bringing pathogens onto farms and I am not sure how the scheme I was suggesting would do this. As I said already my suggestion does not rely on mixed animal production.

Mixed farm enterprises are not my idea, but the traditional way farms were organised before increased mechanisation, and many farms still produce more than one crop. Some farms still make a profit when producing more than one type of crop and not being dependant on just one low priced product they are far less likely to be wiped out by cheap imports.

I would not suggest giving anybody botulism. I do agree this example of an alternative farm enterprise would require investment but I am not sure how you can conclude so quickly that it would not be viable. Small scale quality products can sometimes get a higher price that could compensate for smaller scale production costs. What do you mean by high fixed cost input?

Every time something or someone moves on or off a farm where there are animals increases the potential for spreading diseases between flocks and herds.

That includes animals, fodder, bedding, people, vehicles etc.

Small scale artisan products may well command higher prices but that doesn't necessarily mean they enjoy higher margins and / or decent profits. Your fixed costs are the costs that don't vary with production - the cost of a piece of equipment or the lease on a premises or the cost of a shelf-life study. Variable costs vary with production - packaging, energy etc

In my experience no one sets out to give anyone botulism, listeria or salmonella.

The reason I can be confident in my assessment is that I've been involved in assessing such operations for over 20 years - the simple fact is you either get big quickly, get scale or die!

You don't think Ballymaloe Relish is still produced in Ballymaloe?

macraignil

Jawgap wrote: »

Every time something or someone moves on or off a farm where there are animals increases the potential for spreading diseases between flocks and herds.

That includes animals, fodder, bedding, people, vehicles etc.

Small scale artisan products may well command higher prices but that doesn't necessarily mean they enjoy higher margins and / or decent profits. Your fixed costs are the costs that don't vary with production - the cost of a piece of equipment or the lease on a premises or the cost of a shelf-life study. Variable costs vary with production - packaging, energy etc

In my experience no one sets out to give anyone botulism, listeria or salmonella.

The reason I can be confident in my assessment is that I've been involved in assessing such operations for over 20 years - the simple fact is you either get big quickly, get scale or die!

You don't think Ballymaloe Relish is still produced in Ballymaloe?

Are you suggesting no efforts to create additional jobs on farms should be taken on the grounds that the additional farm worker might transmit disease between herds?

No I do not think Ballymaloe Relish is still produced in Ballymaloe, but as far as I know it was originaly produced there. Would additional support for alternative farm enterprises, that might build up a successful brand, possibly lead to more successful products, that could create a market share and allow for large scale production in future? I have no problem with Irish business sub contracting elements of its business.

I'm not claiming every alternative farm enterprise will be a success and many of the community type employment schemes supported by CAP funding as I was suggesting might operate to simply add to the existing farm production. It would depend on each individual farm and I was only listing some examples of what might be done. The individual farmer or farm business would need to decide how to best make use of the funds depending on what opertunities were available to that farm business. I would hope Ireland would benefit from additional employment of any sort particularly if the alternative use of the CAP funds is more machinery that functions to reduce employment.

Geomy

I was in Kinvara yesterday, a lady was selling organic Brussels sprouts and broccoli and loads more, she has set up her usual stall ...
The local supermarket is selling them for nothing really. ...
She had sold out in no time, the supermarket still have their shelves full. ...

Ill support the local farmers any day.

Maudi

kevohmsford wrote: »

I think this situation is a disgrace. Sure the consumer is getting cheap vegetables but the farmers are losing out big time.
I fully support the farmers protesting.

Give away a nations resources ..move along nothing to see here..give away a few cheap brussel sprouts at xmas..pitchforks out...cop on..

Maudi

kevohmsford wrote: »

I think this situation is a disgrace. Sure the consumer is getting cheap vegetables but the farmers are losing out big time.
I fully support the farmers protesting.

Give away a nations resources ..move along nothing to see here..give away a few cheap brussel sprouts at xmas..pitchforks out...cop on..

Jawgap

macraignil wrote: »

Are you suggesting no efforts to create additional jobs on farms should be taken on the grounds that the additional farm worker might transmit disease between herds?

No, the original point I was responding to related to the cost / hassle associated with maintaining 'free range' status - that implied to me that the person was operating a poultry farm (the designation free range doesn't apply anywhere else) - one of the main concerns of a poultry farmer is bio-security, which also incurs a cost.

macraignil wrote: »

No I do not think Ballymaloe Relish is still produced in Ballymaloe, but as far as I know it was originaly produced there. Would additional support for alternative farm enterprises, that might build up a successful brand, possibly lead to more successful products, that could create a market share and allow for large scale production in future? I have no problem with Irish business sub contracting elements of its business.

I'm not claiming every alternative farm enterprise will be a success and many of the community type employment schemes supported by CAP funding as I was suggesting might operate to simply add to the existing farm production. It would depend on each individual farm and I was only listing some examples of what might be done. The individual farmer or farm business would need to decide how to best make use of the funds depending on what opertunities were available to that farm business. I would hope Ireland would benefit from additional employment of any sort particularly if the alternative use of the CAP funds is more machinery that functions to reduce employment.

Adding value to primary products is an excellent idea, but you need to think it through. First, facilities - you can't simply take farm produce and turn it into a product in the kitchen, you need proper facilities, equipment etc even for small scale production.

Branding, marketing, promotion, advertising etc all takes time and significant amounts of money - markets don't just throw themselves open and successful brands don't just happen.

In terms of employees who is the farmer going to get and how are they going to be managed?

That's before you even get to running costs such as energy, logistics, packaging.

It's a nice idea but you'd need bigger farms to make it work - Irish farms, generally speaking, are too small as are their field sizes. Of course, it's not all about economics and large farms lead to reduced rural populations and less stewardship of the land.

Personally, I think instead of whinging and looking for someone to blame the IFA should look to set up co-operatives to open up other channels through which farmers can get there produce to the consumer without having to go through the multiples

Farmer Pudsey

Just to give an idea of the effects of this a small producer non-organic who set up a stall on market days in different towns/villages around 10 miles from major supermarkets. Last week his sales were back 50%. This should have been one of the busyist weeks of the year for him.

Mcgrail your theory on food production seems great however in Ireland we have one serious issue we do not have the population base to support this. We export 90% of the food we produce. It is different in France/UK/Italy/Germany etc you can set up a micro farm project and use local farm markets to test/support your project.

Farmers cannot be expected to develop a product and create employment just for the sake of it. This would be akin of telling Supermarkets that they had to sell all there meat through a butcher counter, or cooked meat/salads from a Deli counter, both would create employment and would allow other shops to set up in competition but would raise the cost of these items and create problems for supermarkets.

macraignil

Jawgap wrote: »

In terms of employees who is the farmer going to get and how are they going to be managed?


That's before you even get to running costs such as energy, logistics, packaging.

It's a nice idea but you'd need bigger farms to make it work - Irish farms, generally speaking, are too small as are their field sizes. Of course, it's not all about economics and large farms lead to reduced rural populations and less stewardship of the land.



Personally, I think instead of whinging and looking for someone to blame the IFA should look to set up co-operatives to open up other channels through which farmers can get there produce to the consumer without having to go through the multiples

There are a few hundred thousand people being paid unemployment benefit in Ireland currently and I'm sure many of them would apply for such a scheme if it was available. FAS is now being joined up with the department of social welfare, but the infastructure for advertising such positions already exists. The management of the individual farm community employment scheme post would need to be down to the particular farmer or farm business as it would be completely unproductive for government to try to decidide what they should do. I did mention in a previous post that a threshold in CAP payments might be applied so only the larger farm enterprises would be required to participate.

I agree that there are lots of complications with alternative farm enterprises and I would not suggest that this type of job creation scheme would require the farmer to start a completely new enterprise. For many the additional labour might simply improve farm infastructure to allow more efficient production or marketing of existing farm products to achieve a better price, for what a farm already produces. Idealy the unemployed person could be matched to the farm that has requirements in areas where they might have previous qualifications or experience.

The idea of the IFA setting up new co-operatives to open up other channels for sales is a very good suggestion.

lostdisk

ebbsy wrote: »

What about the cheap booze then ? A lot of people seem to be in no hurry to deal with that.......they must be getting paid off.

Booze? Least of all problems.

The cartel that controls fuel prices. Government backed robbery