Jesus and Alien Life

Malcolm.

gaynorvader wrote: »

I'm not missing the point, though I fear you're missing mine.

Current weather is proven to exist.
Terrestial life is proven to exist.

Future weather is not proven to exist.
Extraterrestial life is not proven to exist.

Using data to extrapolate is what science is all about (hyperbole alert).

Weather exists, it has nothing to do with aliens or forecasting what aliens are going to do.

Now, have you any evidence alien life exists, if you have post it up.

Until you present proper scientific evidence that aliens exist, I'll be suspending any belief in aliens if you don't mind. And there is no evidence.

Malcolm.

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

According to the Bible God is the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob and the Jews who were their descendants were the chosen people and NOBODY else.

I thought he was supposed to be the god of everyone and everything ?

Your own book makes it very clear angels knew about god and jesus before man, and that he is also their god.

No missionaries required.

Or as they said in star trek "why does God need a starship" ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYW_lPlekiQ

Balaclava1991

oldrnwisr wrote: »

You seem to have completely ignored my last point so let me try again.

Even if we were to take the Biblical account as true, the necessity of Jesus' arrival on Earth was driven by our fallen nature which we inherit from the first humans, Adam and Eve. So, therefore only the descendants of Adam and Eve would be in need of salvation through Jesus. A separate group of beings, human or otherwise, created by God would not be tarred with the same brush of original sin and would therefore not need to be saved.

As interesting as your thought experiment is, it is fatally undermined by your failure to assimilate this point.

So only the 7 billion human beings have to worry about hell and not the potentially trillions of other intelligent beings with souls on all the other billions of habitable planets that exist?

So why does God in his infinite power simply bail out the human race and forgive our sins without going to trouble of sending his only Son to earth to suffer and die?

The earth is just a speck compared to a universe that unimaginably vast.

Why would a God who could create such a thing send people to hell for having anal sex or lustful thoughts or robbing a bank since such a crimes do not make a dent in the vast universe?

mr lee

what about all the people who lived and died before jesus was born,they're all screwed as well

gerrybbadd

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

If Jesus is the ONLY son of God then he could have existed ONLY on Planet Earth in the 1st century and NOWHERE ELSE.
If you are a believing Christian you MUST believe that.
Therefore if there are potentially trillions of unsaved souls on other planets they will only hear about Jesus from Christians and NOWHERE ELSE.
God has not given Christians the means to able to fulfill the mission of saving them - preaching to them, converting them and baptizing them.
Therefore this utterly undermines the whole basis of the Christian faith.

You love the word ONLY. I'm not a believing Christian. I have no doubt there was a historical Jesus, but was he the son of god - no. The way you take the Bible as fact is worrying, especially in this day and age.

You do REALISE the Bible is also a human invention, as is Jesus' divinity? Every heard of the First Council of Nicaea? Where humans DECIDED what went into the Bible, and what would not go in? Or how they DECIDED that Jesus would no longer be a lowly Human, and instead become the son of god?

The aliens are better off not knowing about Jesus or organised religion, with the amount of wars that have been fought in the name of God. The ETs are in fact SAVED, due to ignorance of religion

Balaclava1991

Malcolm. wrote: »

I thought he was supposed to be the god of everyone and everything ?
Your own book makes it very clear angels knew about god and jesus before man, and that he is also their god.

Mortals can today only learn about God through word of mouth since God for some strange reason has decided not to perform miracles like parting the Red Sea and so on in the modern industrial era.

Balaclava1991

gerrybbadd wrote: »

You love the word ONLY. I'm not a believing Christian. I have no doubt there was a historical Jesus, but was he the son of god - no. The way you take the Bible as fact is worrying, especially in this day and age.

You do REALISE the Bible is also a human invention, as is Jesus' divinity? Every heard of the First Council of Nicaea? Where humans DECIDED what went into the Bible, and what would not go in? Or how they DECIDED that Jesus would no longer be a lowly Human, and instead become the son of god?

The aliens are better off not knowing about Jesus or organised religion, with the amount of wars that have been fought in the name of God. The ETs are in fact SAVED, due to ignorance of religion

The Bible is quite clear that Jesus is the ONLY Son of God and it is the duty of Christians to spread the Good News of salvation.

Yet strangely God gives Christians no ability to spread Jesus to alien civilizations if they were ever discovered.

God has not created an efficient system of spread the faith.

Similarly if Jesus had been Chinese then 2 Billion Chinese would be saved.

Instead God chose to be born in Israel in 1st century which was a provincial backwater.

The Earth is a celestial backwater and yet Jesus was born here?

Why wasn't Jesus born on a planet that already had warp drive?

Malcolm.

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Mortals can today only learn about God through word of mouth since God for some strange reason has decided not to perform miracles like parting the Red Sea and so on in the modern industrial era.

Hmmm, must be because of stena line, or perhaps P&O

Sarky

oldrnwisr wrote: »

You seem to have completely ignored my last point so let me try again.

Even if we were to take the Biblical account as true, the necessity of Jesus' arrival on Earth was driven by our fallen nature which we inherit from the first humans, Adam and Eve. So, therefore only the descendants of Adam and Eve would be in need of salvation through Jesus. A separate group of beings, human or otherwise, created by God would not be tarred with the same brush of original sin and would therefore not need to be saved.

As interesting as your thought experiment is, it is fatally undermined by your failure to assimilate this point.

It'd be hilarious to see alien civilisation that didn't need saving show up, only to turn out to be as petty and vindictive as everyone else. the theological gymnastics required to explain it away would be breathtaking.

Malcolm.

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

The Bible is quite clear that Jesus is the ONLY Son of God and it is the duty of Christians to spread the Good News of salvation.

Yet strangely God gives Christians no ability to spread Jesus to alien civilizations if they were ever discovered.

God has not created an efficient system of spread the faith.

Similarly if Jesus had been Chinese then 2 Billion Chinese would be saved.

Instead God chose to be born in Israel in 1st century which was a provincial backwater.

The Earth is a celestial backwater and yet Jesus was born here?

Why wasn't Jesus born on a planet that already had warp drive?

Pretty cheeky asumming other alien races have inherited origional sin from adam and eve.

Why does God need a starship ?

Balaclava1991

Malcolm. wrote: »

I thought he was supposed to be the god of everyone and everything ?

Your own book makes it very clear angels knew about god and jesus before man, and that he is also their god.

No missionaries required.

Or as they said in star trek "why does God need a starship" ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYW_lPlekiQ

So we can agree that both the existence and non-existence of life on other planets makes the concept of God problematic.

1. If Earth is alone in the universe as the only planet where intelligent life exists one must ask why God would leave his universe so empty?

2. If intelligence life exists throughout the universe how are humans going to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ?

gerrybbadd

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

The Bible is quite clear that Jesus is the ONLY Son of God and it is the duty of Christians to spread the Good News of salvation.

Yet strangely God gives Christians no ability to spread Jesus to alien civilizations if they were ever discovered.

God has not created an efficient system of spread the faith.

Similarly if Jesus had been Chinese then 2 Billion Chinese would be saved.

Instead God chose to be born in Israel in 1st century which was a provincial backwater.

The Earth is a celestial backwater and yet Jesus was born here?

Why wasn't Jesus born on a planet that already had warp drive?

I'm calling Shenanigans on this whole thing.

The Bible is a load of muck, created mostly by humans, as a control mechanism. Spread fear amongst humans in order to control them.

Why is your book the true book, what of the 2 Billion Chinese & their religious beliefs? The muslims, the jews, the Flying Spagetti Monster Or the Jedis? :rolleyes:

Balaclava1991

Malcolm. wrote: »

Pretty cheeky asumming other alien races have inherited origional sin from adam and eve.

Why does God need a starship ?

Potentially trillions of souls exist but only earthlings are doomed to die from original sin and have knowledge of good and evil and capable of sinning having eaten the forbidden fruit.

Why are earthlings discriminated against by God?

Balaclava1991

gerrybbadd wrote: »

I'm calling Shenanigans on this whole thing.

The Bible is a load of muck, created mostly by humans, as a control mechanism. Spread fear amongst humans in order to control them.

Why is your book the true book, what of the 2 Billion Chinese & their religious beliefs? The muslims, the jews, the Flying Spagetti Monster Or the Jedis? :rolleyes:

Why indeed.

This thread is just a thought experiment.

I just wanted to demonstrate the absurdity of Christianity.

Malcolm.

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

So we can agree that both the existence and non-existence of life on other planets makes the concept of God problematic.

1. If Earth is alone in the universe as the only planet where intelligent life exists one must ask why God would leave his universe so empty?

2. If intelligence life exists throughout the universe how are humans going to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ?

One snag. No evidence what so ever.

There's another one, why has adam and eve's origional sin been transferred to aliens ? It was not transferred to angels.

And nother one, why does God need a starship ?

Malcolm.

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Why indeed.

This thread is just a thought experiment.

I just wanted to demonstrate the absurdity of Christianity.

Great, but it's bad enough wasting time on theists, never mind a pretend one. :mad:

gaynorvader

Malcolm. wrote: »

Weather exists, it has nothing to do with aliens or forecasting what aliens are going to do.

Now, have you any evidence alien life exists, if you have post it up.

Until you present proper scientific evidence that aliens exist, I'll be suspending any belief in aliens if you don't mind. And there is no evidence.

• Weather exists. There is proof of weather.
• Life exists. There is proof of life.

Future weather is predicted to exist, however there is no proof that it will. We're simply extrapolating based on what we know.

Extraterrestrial life is predicted to exist, however there is no proof that it will. We're simply extrapolating based on what we know.

Malcolm.

gaynorvader wrote: »

• Weather exists. There is proof of weather.
• Life exists. There is proof of life.

Future weather is predicted to exist, however there is no proof that it will. We're simply extrapolating based on what we know.

Extraterrestrial life is predicted to exist, however there is no proof that it will. We're simply extrapolating based on what we know.

Good, now you understand what proof is in great big letters, have you any evidence of alien life yet ? I'm not even looking for proof. Just some evidence will do. Any evidence what so ever. Untill then and untill you present some evidence for alien life, if you don't mind, and it's all right with you, I'll be suspending any belief in alien life.

oldrnwisr

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

So only the 7 billion human beings have to worry about hell and not the potentially trillions of other intelligent beings with souls on all the other billions of habitable planets that exist?

Yes. That is, if you're a Christian.

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

So why does God in his infinite power simply bail out the human race and forgive our sins without going to trouble of sending his only Son to earth to suffer and die?

Infinite power? I don't think so. Have a look at Judges 1:19.

Yes, bailing out the human race would be quicker and easier but unfortunately the people who wrote the OT backed themselves into a corner by borrowing the basis of their mythology from Sumerian and Babylonian myth and then trying to make a coherent story out of it.

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Why would a God who could create such a thing send people to hell for having anal sex or lustful thoughts or robbing a bank since such a crimes do not make a dent in the vast universe?

Laws aren't framed, even now, by how they affect the Universe at large, but rather by how they affect society. This is why robbing a bank is illegal and immoral.

As for the anal sex and lustful thoughts bit, this is really just a feature of the frontier law nature of the 613 mitzvot in the OT. In a nomadic, warlike and primitive society, moral decrees were dealt with with severe punishments, typically death in the Bible.

You really have to stop looking at the Bible as if it were the work of God. You should look at the world and the Bible in particular as it really is.

gaynorvader

Malcolm. wrote: »

Good, now you understand what proof is in great big letters, have you any evidence of alien life yet ? Never mind proof. Just some evidence will do. Any evidence what so ever. Untill then and untill you present some evidence, if you don't mind, and it's all right with you, I'll be suspending any belief in alien life.

Do you have any evidence of what the weather will be tomorrow?

Malcolm.

gaynorvader wrote: »

Do you have any evidence of what the weather will be tomorrow?

The goalpost are exactly where they always were. Evidence.

Have you got any evidence of alien life yet ? You've been asked several times for same. Untill you provide some I'll be suspending any belief.

robindch

Sarky wrote: »

It'd be hilarious to see alien civilisation that didn't need saving show up, only to turn out to be as petty and vindictive as everyone else. the theological gymnastics required to explain it away would be breathtaking.

In all fairness, the religious have shown some serious form doing that previously.

gaynorvader

Malcolm. wrote: »

The goalpost are exactly where they always were. Evidence.

Fair enough, I removed that bit of my post as fast as I could, it was an error on my part

Malcolm wrote:

Have you got any evidence of alien life yet ? You've been asked several times for same. Untill you provide some I'll be suspending any belief.

I'm trying to demonstrate that to make a scientific prediction you don't need evidence. The answer is no, I don't have evidence yet (obviously). I haven't asked you to believe anything.
My point, which you seem to be avoiding addressing, is that we are (almost) certainly going to find e.t. life at some point.

Balaclava1991

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Yes. That is, if you're a Christian.




Infinite power? I don't think so. Have a look at Judges 1:19.

Yes, bailing out the human race would be quicker and easier but unfortunately the people who wrote the OT backed themselves into a corner by borrowing the basis of their mythology from Sumerian and Babylonian myth and then trying to make a coherent story out of it.




Laws aren't framed, even now, by how they affect the Universe at large, but rather by how they affect society. This is why robbing a bank is illegal and immoral.

As for the anal sex and lustful thoughts bit, this is really just a feature of the frontier law nature of the 613 mitzvot in the OT. In a nomadic, warlike and primitive society, moral decrees were dealt with with severe punishments, typically death in the Bible.

You really have to stop looking at the Bible as if it were the work of God. You should look at the world and the Bible in particular as it really is.

You do realize I am taking the p*ss don't you?

The whole point of this thread is how comically absurd Christianity is in the light of science and when we consider what could potentially be out there in the universe.

oscarBravo

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Surely if a planet the same size as our earth is orbiting a yellow dwarf star at a distance of 93 miles...

...it would be rather hostile to life (and wouldn't be orbiting for very long).

:pac:

Malcolm.

gaynorvader wrote: »

Fair enough, I removed that bit of my post as fast as I could, it was an error on my part

I'm trying to demonstrate that to make a scientific prediction you don't need evidence. The answer is no, I don't have evidence yet (obviously). I haven't asked you to believe anything.
My point, which you seem to be avoiding addressing, is that we are (almost) certainly going to find e.t. life at some point.

For a hypothesis to be termed a scientific hypothesis, it has to be something that can be supported through carefully crafted and repeated experimentation and observation. There is no evidence what so ever for alien life and there never has been, and I'll be suspending any belief in it untill there is.

gaynorvader

Malcolm. wrote: »

For a hypothesis to be termed a scientific hypothesis, it has to be something that can be supported through carefully crafted and repeated experimentation and observation. There is no evidence what so ever for alien life and there never has been, and I'll be suspending any belief in it untill there is.

There is however ample evidence of life here on Earth. Unless you are claiming that the Earth is unique in it's virtues ( a statistical impossibility)?

Malcolm.

gaynorvader wrote: »

There is however ample evidence of life here on Earth. Unless you are claiming that the Earth is unique in it's virtues ( a statistical impossibility)?

Given the vastness of the universe anything is technically possible, including the existence of god, unicorns, etc. somewhere

Show me any evidence for alien life.

The burden of proof lies with you.

There is no evidence what so ever for alien life and there never has been, and I'll be suspending any belief in it until there is.

It's as simple as that. You're as bad as the theists on here.

Claiming belief, or possibility, is some sort of proof or evidence or backing a reason to believe in anything. It's not.

jackboy

There is evidence for alien life. Look in the mirror.

Malcolm.

jackboy wrote: »

There is evidence for alien life. Look in the mirror.

What planet are you from ?

jackboy

Well if you found one pink unicorn the chances of finding a second one vastly increases.

Malcolm.

jackboy wrote: »

Well if you found one pink unicorn the chances of finding a second one vastly increases.

Great, all you have to do is find one. That's called evidence, instead of pretending a horse is evidence to believe unicorns exist.

gaynorvader

Malcolm. wrote: »

Great, all you have to do is find one. That's called evidence, instead of pretending a horse is evidence to believe unicorns exist.

We are the first pink unicorn in his analogy.

Again the fact that life exists here, is evidence life can exist. Therefore, it's incredibly unlikely that life doesn't exist in the billions upon billions of other worlds out there.

And if you could leave the aspersions aside I'd appreciate it.

shruikan2553

Malcolm. wrote: »

Great, all you have to do is find one. That's called evidence, instead of pretending a horse is evidence to believe unicorns exist.

I'm going to go through this very slowly. The evidence is that we exist. By our existence we know that life exists. We also know other animals exist. So now we are at the point where we know two things:

1. Life does exist
2. It can exist in many forms (humans, trees, flowers, bushes, fish, insects, birds, bacteria)

All the life we know about is on this planet. We have found planets with conditions like ours. If we know other planets can have water, rocks, oxygen etc then there is the possibility that it also contains life.

We have proven that life does exist in many forms and often discover new types. There is no difference in finding a new type of fish deep in our ocean or on another planet.

Malcolm.

gaynorvader wrote: »

We are the first pink unicorn in his analogy.

Again the fact that life exists here, is evidence life can exist. Therefore, it's incredibly unlikely that life doesn't exist in the billions upon billions of other worlds out there.

And if you could leave the aspersions aside I'd appreciate it.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I'm going to go through this very slowly. The evidence is that we exist. By our existence we know that life exists. We also know other animals exist. So now we are at the point where we know two things:

1. Life does exist
2. It can exist in many forms (humans, trees, flowers, bushes, fish, insects, birds, bacteria)

All the life we know about is on this planet. We have found planets with conditions like ours. If we know other planets can have water, rocks, oxygen etc then there is the possibility that it also contains life.

We have proven that life does exist in many forms and often discover new types. There is no difference in finding a new type of fish deep in our ocean or on another planet.

I'll keep it short and sweet for you again.

A horse is not evidence for unicorns.

Bishops are not evidence for god.

You have no evidence of alien life.

I've asked you again and again to bring me a single scientific report or scientific evidence showing that there is evidence for alien life.

The reason you cannot is, like a theist, you have no evidence whatsoever for your claims, but keep thinking that you do.

Speculation is not evidence for your claim.
Probability is not evidence for your claim.
Possibility is not evidence for your claim of alien life.
Life on earth is not evidence of alien life.

Bring me some proper scientific evidence for alien life.

Untill you do, I'll be suspending my belief in it.

shruikan2553

Malcolm. wrote: »

I'll keep it short and sweet for you again.

A horse is not evidence for unicorns.

Bishops are not evidence for god.

You have no evidence of alien life.

I've asked you again and again to bring me a single scientific report or scientific evidence showing that there is evidence for alien life.

The reason you cannot is, like a theist, you have no evidence whatsoever for your claims, but keep thinking that you do.

Speculation is not evidence for your claim.
Probability is not evidence for your claim.
Possibility is not evidence for your claim of alien life.
Life on earth is not evidence of alien life.

Bring me some proper scientific evidence for alien life.

Untill you do, I'll be suspending my belief in it.

Nobody is saying there is alien life. People are saying that there is the possibility of alien life.

I'm assuming you ignore weather forecasts?

Malcolm.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Nobody is saying there is alien life. People are saying that there is the possibility of alien life.

I'm assuming you ignore weather forecasts?

In such a vast universe, lots of things are possible, including god and unicorns.

Until I see some actual evidence of alien life, I'll be suspending belief in it.

I'm not intrested in what you choose to believe. I'm intrested in actual evidence.

nagirrac

shruikan2553 wrote: »

We have proven that life does exist in many forms and often discover new types. There is no difference in finding a new type of fish deep in our ocean or on another planet.

All life on earth is believed to have evolved from one common ancestor or at least a common primitive gene pool, so finding new species is what you would expect. How life itself emerged, in terms of how chemical sludge turned into the first primitive cell, is still largely unknown to us. As Darwin said: "we might as well speculate about the origin of matter", and 150 years later, even with all the effort in abiogenesis, we are still largely speculating.

We simply haven't a clue what the probability of life emerging on a planet like ours is, it is somewhere between "impossibly unlikely" and "absolutely inevitable" according to George Whitesides, Professor of Chemistry at Harvard University. We don't even know if life originated on earth, it may have originated on Mars for example and migrated here.

pauldla

I don't know a great deal about the subject, but I'd imagine finding evidence of life on another planet would be hugely more significant than finding another species of life in the ocean. As nagirrac points out, all life on this planet is from a common gene pool; we are, to a certain extent, variations on a theme.

kylith

gaynorvader wrote: »

We are the first pink unicorn in his analogy.

Again the fact that life exists here, is evidence life can exist. Therefore, it's incredibly unlikely that life doesn't exist in the billions upon billions of other worlds out there.

Exactly. Since it has occurred once (us) it is likely that abiogenesis and evolution has also occurred in other places in the universe, it may be slime on a rock, but living nonetheless.

For gods though, you'd have to find one god first, before you could claim there were more.

Malcolm.

kylith wrote: »

Exactly. Since it has occurred once (us) it is likely that abiogenesis and evolution has also occurred in other places in the universe, it may be slime on a rock, but living nonetheless.

Evidence of a horse is not evidence of a unicorn

kylith

Malcolm. wrote: »

Evidence of a horse is not evidence of a unicorn

What horse? We, metaphorically speaking, are the unicorn. We (and all other terran creatures) are proof of life on a planet in this universe. If there is life on this one planet then the likelyhood of there being life on other planets increases, especially if the number of stars, and planets orbiting them, is near infinite.

gaynorvader

Malcolm. wrote: »

Evidence of a horse is not evidence of a unicorn

A horse and a unicorn are not the same. Life is the same as life however.

Malcolm.

kylith wrote: »

What horse? We, metaphorically speaking, are the unicorn. We (and all other terran creatures) are proof of life on a planet in this universe. If there is life on this one planet then the likelyhood of there being life on other planets increases, especially if the number of stars, and planets orbiting them, is near infinite.

gaynorvader wrote: »

A horse and a unicorn are not the same. Life is the same as life however.

You have no evidence of alien life.

I've asked again and again to bring me a single scientific report or scientific evidence showing that there is evidence for alien life.

The reason you cannot is, like a theist, you have no evidence whatsoever for your claims, but keep thinking that you do.

Speculation is not evidence for your claim.
Probability is not evidence for your claim.
Possibility is not evidence for your claim of alien life.
Life on earth is not evidence of alien life.

Bring me some proper scientific evidence for alien life.

Untill you do, I'll be suspending any belief in it.

housetypeb

Do you believe that there is weather patterns on alien planets or have you suspended belief in that too.

Malcolm.

Weather on other planets exists. That's called evidence of weather on other planets. Well done you, I think you're finally getting the word evidence.

Now have you any evidence of alien life yet ? You'll be the first ever, and we can award you the Nobel prize.

Turtwig

How do you know weather exists in planets outside the local horizon?

kylith

Malcolm. wrote: »

You have no evidence of alien life.

I've asked again and again to bring me a single scientific report or scientific evidence showing that there is evidence for alien life.

The reason you cannot is, like a theist, you have no evidence whatsoever for your claims, but keep thinking that you do.

Speculation is not evidence for your claim.
Probability is not evidence for your claim.
Possibility is not evidence for your claim of alien life.
Life on earth is not evidence of alien life.

Bring me some proper scientific evidence for alien life.

Untill you do, I'll be suspending any belief in it.

No one that I've seen has claimed alien life as fact. What has been said is that since life has evolved on this one planet it is statistically likely that life has also evolved on other planets. No one is claiming that lizard people definitely live on a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri, just that somewhere out there in the vastness of space there may well be a planet where a lichen covers a rock.

Anyway, I'm sure there'll be a mission to Europa at some point. Hopefully that'll answer some questions.

shruikan2553

Jernal wrote: »

How do you know weather exists in planets outside the local horizon?

Current weather exists, its just there is no weather in the future. Theres no evidence that weather will exist so I dont believe in it.

Victor

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

That means there are trillions of souls out there that will not be saved because they don't know about Jesus the ONLY son of God.

And Jesus's sisters?