Advertised Storage not available storage

Paulw

Cyber Ghost wrote: »

I keep repeating but I ended up with 1Gb from 4GB which is a whopping SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT less than advertised.

Can you please link to where it quotes the available space, rather than total space? It is NOT less than advertised. It is exactly as advertised. The device has a 4GB capacity, and you happen to have 1GB available to you.

Cyber Ghost wrote: »

This is a stupid example but say some "man on the street" who isn't very tech savvy decided to buy a Android smartphone as there's a particular app he's interested in and which he knows is a large 1.5GB.

If the man on the street isn't tech savy then he won't have a clue how much space 1GB is, or 4GB is. So, as far as he is concerned - he buys a phone and has space to install some apps. I bet the "man on the street" would have no clue as to the size of an app he is installing, never mind how much space he really wants. :rolleyes:

It is the somewhat more tech savy like you who have the issue and continue to rant when you already know what you're getting.

Maybe it's time to move on and do some research before you buy.

keithclancy

Cyber Ghost wrote: »

That's less than 15% of the space advertised.

I keep repeating but I ended up with 1Gb from 4GB which is a whopping SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT less than advertised.

This is a stupid example but say some "man on the street" who isn't very tech savvy decided to buy a Android smartphone as there's a particular app he's interested in and which he knows is a large 1.5GB. He notices the Huawei y300 (the one I bought) is being advertised with 4GB internal storage so he goes "Ah shur, that'll be plenty, like" - he takes it home and tried to install the app and finds there's only 1GB storage available!

The guy musn't have a clue what's going on! He must think his phone is broken or some****.

It's blatant misleading advertising and this has to be remedied

Advertising the available space would be misleading since when the O/S is updated or new features are added this increases the amount of space used.

Also the O/S is made by a third party.

TerrorFirmer

I think using the 1024mb v 1GB argument is a little off here, I think most people understand that and do not expect every last drop of storage on their phone, laptop, or whatever medium, but advertising something as 4gb storage of which only 25% of that is accessible to the user is pretty bad in my opinion. That's a whole different kettle of fish to the typical hard drive argument. Imagine you bought a 1TB laptop in PC World and only 250GB was accessible?

Nino Brown

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I think using the 1024mb v 1GB argument is a little off here, I think most people understand that and do not expect every last drop of storage on their phone, laptop, or whatever medium, but advertising something as 4gb storage of which only 25% of that is accessible to the user is pretty bad in my opinion. That's a whole different kettle of fish to the typical hard drive argument. Imagine you bought a 1TB laptop in PC World and only 250GB was accessible?

Surely it's understood in this day and age that operating systems take several GB's on a phone and more on a laptop. If you buy a cheap device with less memory, a larger percentage will be used for the OS. You're never going to have a 750GB operating system, so if you pay for the extra memory, then you get more available memory. Like everything else, you get what you pay for.

Cyber Ghost

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I think using the 1024mb v 1GB argument is a little off here, I think most people understand that and do not expect every last drop of storage on their phone, laptop, or whatever medium, but advertising something as 4gb storage of which only 25% of that is accessible to the user is pretty bad in my opinion. That's a whole different kettle of fish to the typical hard drive argument. Imagine you bought a 1TB laptop in PC World and only 250GB was accessible?

Finally, someone who gets my point.

RossieMan

is there any point arguing with you? you don't seem to get common sense on the matter.

do you understand that OS takes up a large majority of the available space? They are marketed as having 4gb of space because they do infact, gave 4gb of space.

I don't get whats so hard to understand. even if you're not technological, that still has to make sense.

you're not making any point with this thread, it's just your own ignorance on the matter i'm seeing.

UCDVet

If it were a car that was advertised as 'seats 6' but only had room for four people because of the engine and trunk....I'm sure there are people would say, 'Well - it didn't say seating for six is available - just that it has it. And it does - if you take out the engine and the boot!'.

I agree that it is standard practice, but we routinely pass laws to protect consumers as the industry is happy to make standard practices that screw over customers. In most of these cases the company selling the device does not make the information available, you can't see the size of the OS. You also can't see the size of additional 'stuff' they include (that often can't be removed).

I agree with the OP. It's shady at best. I'm fine with them saying '4gb' so long as they also disclose how much is available. If I buy a phone that says '4gb (.8 available)' or something; then hey, I can make an informed decision. I don't see any reason to be against having this information disclosed.

UCDVet

As a more concrete example - I want to buy a Tablet for my wife. I believe teh Asus Transformer (T100) is the device I want to get.

Here is the item:
http://www.pcworld.ie/Product/ASUS-Transformer-Book-T100-Touchscreen-2-in-1/316797/2.9

There are two models - the 32gb and the 64gb. Unfortunately the 64gb model is not available in Ireland. Reviews of the device overwhelmingly say to get the 64gb model (most of the reviews are done where there is only a small jump in price - so why not?).

But that's not available in any shop I can get to.

So what do I do? Is the 32gb enough space for my needs? Well, I don't know. And short of purchasing one, I can't find out.

I'm searching online because I REALLY do want to know. Will 15gb be free or 5gb? Or 1gb? If it's 15gb - I'd buy it - no question. 5gb - I wouldn't.

What does PC World say on the topic?

Storage is provided by 32 GB of eMMC storage and is enough for apps, music, photos and files.

It is enough for apps, music, photos and files. Well....that means NOTHING. 10mb would be enough storage for two apps, a 2 second mp3, 2 pictures and 2 text files. Heck - you could do that in 2mb.

If you call a shop and ask, they'll think you are crazy and they won't know. They'll tell you what it says on the box '32 gb'. Okay - but that doesn't help me. And if I buy it in a shop - well, then this becomes a far more serious legal issue.

I don't have a right to return something because I get it home and don't like it. So long as it does what it is supposed to.

The law only entitles you to return an item if it is broken or not as described. You are not legally entitled to return something if you don't like it or it doesn't fit

http://www.rte.ie/tv/theafternoonshow/2009/0107/tinaleonard681.html

I don't know if the device will work for me because enough information isn't disclosed. I can't get any official source of the information. And if I buy it, I have no legal right to return it because there is not enough available free space.

I work with computers as a software developer. I don't know the in's and out's of hardware but I'm at least familiar with things - it's not a huge deal for me and like others have pointed out, I know to expect that a bunch of that 32 won't be available. But I can't know how much. I know the OS installed is Windows 8.1 and I know it's a regular x86 chip (so it should be the x86 version of Windows not that RT stuff I don't really understand). But okay, how much space does Windows 8.1 take? And how much crap did ASUS add to it that I may or may not be able to remove?

I don't know!?

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-IE/windows-8/system-requirements says 16gb

But what else is installed?
Microsoft Office Home and Student 2013

Okay - but how much space does that take? I don't know! And it's not like there just one way to install office. Office is a whole collection of products each with lots of optional features. There is no way I can figure out how much space it takes.

Even if I search reviews and opinions - I can't find an answer.

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/laptops/385585/asus-transformer-book-t100 is one such review I found with Google. The thing is - none of the answers are official. They aren't from the company - heck they aren't even from the reviewer - it's from random people and they give conflicting answers!

24GB is used, and that includes a couple of audio books (Audible), Windows, Office 365, Firefox and a few other Windows desktop applications and a dozen or so apps.

I didn't install very much before I realised I had 11GB remaining.

I can't be sure, I'm just *assuming* they both know what they are talking about and both have the same 32gb model. But they both are pretty close. Let's say I trust them....I should have 11-12 gigs of free space. So I go and buy it - but I only have 6! Oh no!

Can I return it. I need at least 10gb....but no, I can't return it. Because the company didn't advertise free space. I just went off what the internet told me.

Why would my version not have the same amount of free space as those other two? Well, software changes. Windows 8.1 has already had a bunch of patches and those certainly can increase space. It's unlikely to do so by 6 gigs, but my point is that it CAN happen, and I have no way of knowing or protecting myself. Heck - a lot of sellers sneakily change the hardware - my current Cell phone is a great example - the Samsung Galaxy Ace came out, got a lot of great reviews and after the first 12 months they switched the CPU and updated the fine print so that it was a different model number (they added a T). The new CPU performs worse. In my case, the O2 website showed the original (good CPU) model but they sold me the worse CPU model. I was able to return it (you can find my post to O2 about it on Boards.ie) they HAD to take it because the CPU was explicitly stated. But with available storage space it is never stated.

I don't see any reason NOT to make companies disclose this. It would cost virtually nothing for them to do and it would greatly improve the shopping experience of customers.

RossieMan

I googled "how much space does the OS take up in the 32GB version of the Asus Transformer".

and this is what was there, on the 1st link.



The internet is such a devil.


But on a level i do agree, the information should be posted along with it on websites like PCworld. they should do a proper review of the items.

But saying its false advertisement, comon.

Guy:Incognito

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Imagine you bought a 1TB laptop in PC World and only 250GB was accessible?

If you bought a 1tb laptop in pc world you wouldn't have 1tb of free space.

The particular phone the op bought seems to have a smaller amount of free space than others alright but they all have less free space than total space.

embraer170

I see the OP's problem and am somewhat surprised at how little understanding there is for it. Manufacturers should be forced to disclose available storage space, in addition to total storage. I seriously doubt most normal consumers would expect to only find 1GB free on a 4GB device...

Paulw

The average consumer wouldn't have a clue to start with. They just know that a bigger number means more space.

As for the suppliers - they can't state the exact available space. This would depend on the specific version of OS installed, the specific apps installed, any space used with the installation, etc.

Buy an identical phone from the operators in Ireland, and each will have different available space. Buy an identical phone 3 months apart, and they will have different available space, since patches may have been factory installed (assuming it is a new phone and not one that has been just sitting in stock).

Bottom line, the retailer has no obligation to detail the available space on a device, and they definitely don't advertise available space. They detail the device capacity.

Talk about this thread being a "First World problem". :rolleyes:

cdebru

Cyber Ghost wrote: »

This has ZERO to do with how many bytes are in a bit and whatnot.

It's to do with the HUGE variation between advertised space and what you end up getting.

For example I bought two 4GB phones lately and one has 1GB (75% less than advertised) available for apps and the other 2GB.

How am I supposed to know this until I take it home and turn it on?

Does the law state that "ah shur you could have checked it online before you bought it" - me hole.

This is a joke of an issue imo and the companies get away with blue murder.
This could easily fall into false advertising and I don't know how they can get away with it.

But what about updates to operating systems ? If a company had to promise you that you would have x amount of storage and you get home to realise that there is a 200mb update you had to install would you have a complaint that you had been misled ?

Would it not encourage some suppliers to just install a bare bones OS so that it would appear that you had more storage even though the OS may be virtually useless.

witchgirl26

You know what you could do - ask the nice people in the shop.

My mam was buying an iPad a couple of years ago. Not a clue what a gb or mb was really except that the bigger meant more space. She chatted away to the guy in the shop who asked her what she'd be using it for etc. He said she'd probably be fine with the 32gb based on what she was looking for. In the end she decided to go for the 64gb one because she decided to have the extra space for music (which she hadn't originally planned to put on it). Done, dusted. No idea of the actual free space on it when she got it but it was enough for her needs.

And if she was ordering it online......well then she'd be able to do a nice little google search.

I do agree that maybe they should put an approx of the free space but it is not false advertising.

UCDVet

RossieMan wrote: »

I googled "how much space does the OS take up in the 32GB version of the Asus Transformer".

and this is what was there, on the 1st link.



The internet is such a devil.


But on a level i do agree, the information should be posted along with it on websites like PCworld. they should do a proper review of the items.

But saying its false advertisement, comon.

I don't mean this to be disrespectful, because it is a bit confusing but...

1.) The reviewer is Brad Linder. That is, some guy on the internet. He doesn't work for ASUS and he doesn't work for PcWorld.ie - what he says his particular model has for storage doesn't matter. I don't doubt that he is correct, at the time of writing it, for the model he got....but that doesn't mean PcWorld or ASUS or anyone else has to honor it in the future.

2.) He reviewed the 64GB model that is not available in Ireland or the UK. He only mentions that the 32GB model 'should' have around 15GB. He is also claiming that the model will come with 40GB of storage and not 32GB storage....which is a pretty substantial difference.

3.) His review says 15GB - I've found two examples of people who have purchased the 32GB model who claim they have around 11....so again - if they went back to the store, they might be able to return it; but they don't have a legal right to. The 15gb claim isn't coming from the shop....just a guy with a blog.

4.) The review was written on August 11th. I know for a fact Microsoft has released a Windows 8.1 patch that is causing a lot of ASUS T100 users serious problems, so much so that ASUS has a new BIOS update available. I have no idea how these (or future) updates will impact the available storage....odds are, probably not much at all. But that's not always the case. Also, that was before the official release date - it may or may not reflect what I would get if I bought one today.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but a blog is no different than 'my friend told me'. You can't return something because 'your friend told you it would be different'.

Guy:Incognito

cdebru wrote: »

But what about updates to operating systems ? If a company had to promise you that you would have x amount of storage and you get home to realise that there is a 200mb update you had to install would you have a complaint that you had been misled ?
.

Like some recently released consoles?

Carawaystick

The consumer protection act of 2007
Section 43.3(b)
Outlines misleading practises

I'd say being left with ~25% of advertised storage is being misled.
The act places no onus on consumers to look up specs on the internet or elsewhere
But sets the bar at an average consumer

Misleading commercial practises are illegal and retailers can be convicted for doing so

Paulw

Carawaystick wrote: »

The consumer protection act of 2007
Section 43.3(b)
Outlines misleading practises

How is it misleading? Just because it doesn't meet the OPs expectation doesn't mean that it is misleading. The advertisement only gives the memory capacity, and never onces mentions available space for the end user.

But, if the OP wants to take the retailer to court, it could be interesting.

kippy

Paulw wrote: »

How is it misleading? Just because it doesn't meet the OPs expectation doesn't mean that it is misleading. The advertisement only gives the memory capacity, and never onces mentions available space for the end user.

But, if the OP wants to take the retailer to court, it could be interesting.

Interesting in that he'll be laughed outta the place.....

Carawaystick

If the retailer advertised a device with 64GB memory and that it had space for video, music and photo files, and this space, discovered after purchase was 10MB, enough for several vines and a few tunes, I'd feel Misled.
being available
My first pc had a 20MB hard disk, and almost 0,4MB of this was taken up by DOS5.1, leaving me with 19.6 MB of available space.
I didn't feel misled.

There's a reasonable balance between those two extremes, and I'd say it's probably closer to 100% of advertised space being available for a user than 50% of space available.

I'd say if a retailer told you a device had X storage installed, and you found out that after the OS was installed, you only had <0.25X, the retailer has misled you.

re. Paulw's post, how would the OP's expectation be created?
The retailer has to meet the average expectation.
If a consumer bought a nokia feature phone with 256MB storage as their last phone, and got >200MB storage, they'd be entitled to expect the overhead would be less or similar in anew phone and that maybe os storage would be seperate to user storage, like every phone they bought before now.

And the advertiser has to deal with these expectations, not the manufacturer.

hognef

Agree with the OP. While there may be more pressing consumer issues to deal with, there's no doubt that plenty of average buyers could easily be misled by the advertised figures.

The manufacturer/vendor may not be making any false claims as such, but they are knowingly taking advantage of consumers drawing the wrong conclusions. An average consumer is likely to assume '4gb' means '4gb available'. Otherwise, what exactly is the significance if that number?

Cyber Ghost

Some people are playing the Devil's Advocate/trolling in this thread.

GarIT

hognef wrote: »

Otherwise, what exactly is the significance if that number?

It's the total storage capacity of the device. If a consumer jumps to a conclusion that's not the manufacturers fault.

Have you ever seen a car advertised as x amount of engine capacity free after everything is put in or just X engine capacity? Is your house advertised as X square meters or X square meters free after you add fixtures and fittings?

UCDVet

Well - PcWorld sold out of the ASUS Transformer I'd hoped to buy, but I was looking today and I saw this product info for on of the Surfaces.

Important

System software uses significant storage space; your storage capacity will be less. 1 GB = 1 billion bytes

Surface with Windows RT comes in two storage configurations. Users can select between a 32 GB and 64 GB version of Surface.

As with all PCs and tablets, the operating system and pre-installed applications take up a certain amount of available storage. With Surface, you can store and enjoy media content and also get real work done, right out of the box.

How much storage space do I have?
Here's how much storage you have available out of the box:

Surface Windows RT
The 32 GB Surface with Windows RT has approximately 16 GB storage available for user content
The 64 GB Surface with Windows RT has approximately 45 GB storage available for user content

I thought it was pretty relevant to this thread. Clearly there are some differences of opinions, but I think we can all agree providing the information like that is pretty cool.

GarIT

UCDVet wrote: »

Well - PcWorld sold out of the ASUS Transformer I'd hoped to buy, but I was looking today and I saw this product info for on of the Surfaces.



I thought it was pretty relevant to this thread. Clearly there are some differences of opinions, but I think we can all agree providing the information like that is pretty cool.

Providing the information is no doubt useful but it is not always possible and shouldn't be a legal requirement.

hognef

GarIT wrote: »

It's the total storage capacity of the device. If a consumer jumps to a conclusion that's not the manufacturers fault.

Have you ever seen a car advertised as x amount of engine capacity free after everything is put in or just X engine capacity? Is your house advertised as X square meters or X square meters free after you add fixtures and fittings?

Well, in some countries, the advertised area is not simply length of house x width of house x 2, it's actually defined as that less the area taken up by internal walls, staircases, storage, etc.

Consumers in this country are largely left to their own devices, due to incredibly weak legislation, and unless people like the OP brings up issues, instead of listening to those who believe what has always been the way is the right way, that'll never improve.

mathepac

Cyber Ghost wrote: »

...
Does the law state that "ah shur you could have checked it online before you bought it" - me hole.

This is a joke of an issue imo ...

I agree with you hole-heartedly. The issue you raise is a joke.

Cyber Ghost wrote: »

... the companies get away with blue murder.
This could easily fall into false advertising and I don't know how they can get away with it.

The ASAI will take your complaint and investigate if it has merit.

Failing that BRNNG BRNNG "Hello, Joe? Yeah listen Joe, dem mega-mangles an' tings you get in your phone Joe, dey're a rip-off Joe...."

kippy

hognef wrote: »

Well, in some countries, the advertised area is not simply length of house x width of house x 2, it's actually defined as that less the area taken up by internal walls, staircases, storage, etc.

Consumers in this country are largely left to their own devices, due to incredibly weak legislation, and unless people like the OP brings up issues, instead of listening to those who believe what has always been the way is the right way, that'll never improve.

Do those measurements take into account furniture?
.read the thread.....there are reasons why it aint legally enforceable.

hognef

kippy wrote: »

Do those measurements take into account furniture?
.read the thread.....there are reasons why it aint legally enforceable.

No, they give the total practically useable area, as opposed to the technically available area (e.g. the area after knocking walls and making a single open-plan space). Fairly analogous to the discussion about available storage space vs total storage space.

And furniture is generally not fixed (as opposed to walls), and is also generally put in by the owner rather than the builder, so not at all comparable.

I've read the thread, an not yet seen any reason why it wouldn't be possible to put in place legally enforcible rules.

kippy

hognef wrote: »

No, they give the total practically useable area, as opposed to the technically available area (e.g. the area after knocking walls and making a single open-plan space). Fairly analogous to the discussion about available storage space vs total storage space.

And furniture is generally not fixed (as opposed to walls), and is also generally put in by the owner rather than the builder, so not at all comparable.

I've read the thread, an not yet seen any reason why it wouldn't be possible to put in place legally enforcible rules.

Read it again.