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Want rid of new tenant - no contract signed yet

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  • 21-12-2013 5:26am
    #1
    whats_up
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭


    We are renting an apartment and one person moved out, so we got a new one in. The new person has been here one week and has not yet signed the lease, the landlord plans to come round with it after christmas. So far the new person has been difficult to deal with (I won't go into details but there is no way we want to go ahead with this now) and neither me nor the other person here want to sign on to a new lease with them. They have paid a deposit and 1 months rent to me as I was handling it, I will happily return this.

    As they haven't signed anything but have moved some stuff in, what can be done? We want the key back and the room emptied as soon as possible.

    Thanks


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    #2
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    No lease signed means you can give them 28 days written notice for any reason in the first 6 months.


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    #3
    whats_up
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭whats_up


    djimi wrote: »
    No lease signed means you can give them 28 days written notice for any reason in the first 6 months.

    Thanks, that's it is it? Nothing else?

    This person has never met the landlord or anything so the agreement was with me and verbal only, I am just a tenant.


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    #4
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    whats_up wrote: »
    Thanks, that's it is it? Nothing else?

    This person has never met the landlord or anything so the agreement was with me and verbal only, I am just a tenant.
    Are you even allowed to sublet? Who signed the original lease?


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    #5
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Explain your situation properly in more detail please.

    You are renting an apartment with some other people, one of whom has left and is being replaced by this new tenant, is that correct? Did you all sign a lease together, or are you renting rooms individually?


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    #6
    whats_up
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭whats_up


    Myself and two others are on the current lease, one has moved out and we will sign a new lease with the current two in the apartment and a new third in the new year. I got a new person and the landlord knows this, he is happy as long as there is continuity of the rent and will visit with the new lease. The idea is I would handle the transfer of responcibility from the old tenant to the new, for example the new person gave me the deposit which I gave to the person leaving, the new person should pay rent directly to the landlord.


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    #7
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Okay so a couple of things. You are renting the property jointly, so the deposit and the rent are handled as an entire entity; there is no such thing as one tenants rent and one tenants deposit. I presume that when they gave you money for the rent it went towards the full rent for that month? That money is between you and the tenant; you can return it to them if you wish but do not expect to get it back from the landlord. Same goes for the deposit; if you wish to return it to them then it comes out of your pocket.

    The lease, or lack thereof, is also somewhat irrelevant at this point. If you want this person out then its between you and them (and the other housemate). You are not subletting; they are taking over as a joint leaseholder. If you want them out then tell them that, and either sign the lease with just the two of you or find another person to take on. This is up to you to sort out, the landlord is not involved.


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    #8
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,959 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Their name is not on the lease, yet, so at this point, they have no rights whatsoever.

    Firstly, you need to contact the landlord and explain to him that
    1) You don't want to sign a lease with the suggested new tenant,
    2) You will be getting them out of the property ASAP, and
    3) You will find someone else, and will cover the rent in the meantime.

    Then you need to have a difficult conversation with them. Basically you need to tell them that "this is not the house for you, we want you to leave by XXX". I suggest making XXX within a week's time.

    I would give them the deposit back during this conversation, and tell them that you will give them the rent for the remaining period the day that they leave. (eg If they've been there for two weeks, you keep two week's rent and give them back the rest).

    Giving the timing, your call whether it's best to do this now or after Christmas. (If they're going home to mammy for it, then maybe wait 'til they come back).

    This is a hard conversation to have (I've only done it once myself), but you have to just focus on the consequences if you don't have it, and they stick around.

    It may be that they refuse to go: worse case you may have to put their stuff in the street. But try really hard to avoid getting to this. One way is to research backpacker hostels or B&Bs that do weekly rate where they could go for a week or two while they sort something else.

    The only down-side is that you and the other housemate will need to cover this months' rent for the room - and that there's a risk they will try some revenge actions in the final few days.

    Good luck. (And thank goodness the lease wasn't signed before they moved in!)


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    #9
    whats_up
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭whats_up


    Unfortunately I didn't go with my gut the first time, the tenant apologised the next morning and I decided to leave things be. It is 3 months since my post and once more the tenant has had a shouting match with me, and accused me of being a liar, he has previously had shouting matches with his girlfriend and generally comes across as a very angry person.

    Funilly enough he never did sign a lease, and I don't want to live with him anymore, if that means he or I go regardless. I won't live with people like this.

    So in the absense of a lease and the likely support of the landlord and the one other tenant, how should we go about removing this person? Thanks.


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    #10
    Eldarion
    Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭Eldarion


    whats_up wrote: »
    So in the absense of a lease and the likely support of the landlord and the one other tenant, how should we go about removing this person? Thanks.

    Have you signed a lease? Or is there now no lease in effect signed by anybody and you're on part 4?


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    #11
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    whats_up wrote: »
    Unfortunately I didn't go with my gut the first time, the tenant apologised the next morning and I decided to leave things be. It is 3 months since my post and once more the tenant has had a shouting match with me, and accused me of being a liar, he has previously had shouting matches with his girlfriend and generally comes across as a very angry person.

    Funilly enough he never did sign a lease, and I don't want to live with him anymore, if that means he or I go regardless. I won't live with people like this.

    So in the absense of a lease and the likely support of the landlord and the one other tenant, how should we go about removing this person? Thanks.

    Did your landlord come around with the new lease? Who signed it? Is this person's name on the lease or just you?


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    #12
    whats_up
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭whats_up


    Eldarion wrote: »
    Have you signed a lease? Or is there now no lease in effect signed by anybody and you're on part 4?
    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    Did your landlord come around with the new lease? Who signed it? Is this person's name on the lease or just you?

    The current lease lists the old tenant who moved out and myself and the one other tenant who is currently here. The new guy never managed to organise with the land lord to sign onto the lease.

    My attitude is that life is too short to live with someone who is aggressive and argumentative. For the moment I am waiting to see how the next few days go and maybe myself and the other tenant will approach the landlord about giving this guy notice. I expect the problem tenant would be very angry if that were to happen. The alternative being I would move out which would be a pain, I have lived here 1.5 years approximately.


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    #13
    Eldarion
    Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭Eldarion


    whats_up wrote: »
    The alternative being I would move out which would be a pain, I have lived here 1.5 years approximately.

    For you more than anyone. You'd still potentially be on the hook for all rent owed for the duration of the new lease you signed regardless.

    Again, as has been pointed out already, this has nothing to do with the landlord. There's no point in you approaching him in this regard as the LL has no contract or dealings with this "problem tenant" of yours. Unfortunately the two of you who are actually signed on the lease will have to deal with it yourselves. Fortunately though your problem tenant has little to no legal standing in terms of rights here as they do not qualify for part 4 nor do they have a lease to guarantee them tenancy.

    Please do note that if/when the tenant does leave the two tenants actually on the lease are responsible for the FULL payment of the rent and not 2/3rds.


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    #14
    whats_up
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭whats_up


    I have just spoken to threshold.ie on the phone, supposedly as he has been here less than 6 months and has no lease, but has been paying rent directly to the landlord the landlord is able to give him 28 days notice to leave. Does this sound right? If so I guess I will wait to see how the second non-problem tenant feels and we may approach the landlord about it.


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    #15
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    whats_up wrote: »
    I have just spoken to threshold.ie on the phone, supposedly as he has been here less than 6 months and has no lease, but has been paying rent directly to the landlord the landlord is able to give him 28 days notice to leave. Does this sound right?

    No. You and the other existing flatmate are currently renting the property in its entirety; the landlord cannot have a seperate dealing with another tenant for the same property. Either the new tenant is part of the overall lease, or they are subletting from you.

    The way that it is at the moment sounds like a bit of a mess tbh. At a guess, Id say they are part of the overall lease as they took over from an existing tenant with the (albeit verbal) blessing of the landlord.

    Either way, this is almost certainly your problem to sort out, not the landlords.


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    #16
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    djimi wrote: »
    No. You and the other existing flatmate are currently renting the property in its entirety; the landlord cannot have a seperate dealing with another tenant for the same property. Either the new tenant is part of the overall lease, or they are subletting from you.

    The way that it is at the moment sounds like a bit of a mess tbh. At a guess, Id say they are part of the overall lease as they took over from an existing tenant with the (albeit verbal) blessing of the landlord.

    Either way, this is almost certainly your problem to sort out, not the landlords.

    If you assign a lease after getting Part 4, does the Part 4 transfer to the new tenant? (may not be applicable here, just wondering)


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    #17
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    If you assign a lease after getting Part 4, does the Part 4 transfer to the new tenant? (may not be applicable here, just wondering)

    Yes I believe so. Assigning a lease means that the new tenant is taking over your tenancy; they are not starting again.

    I could be wrong about that however.


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    #18
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    djimi wrote: »
    Yes I believe so. Assigning a lease means that the new tenant is taking over your tenancy; they are not starting again.

    I could be wrong about that however.

    I've just found a bit in the RTA 2004 about Part 4 tenancies being sublet or assigned.

    "the assignee shall become the tenant of the landlord under
    the     Part 4 tenancy"

    Sounds like the agreement with the landlord to take this person on means he has inherited Part 4 protection. OP mentions 1.5 years being a tenant, so they would need 42 days notice. Don't fully know how this works if they're all on the same lease.


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    #19
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    I've just found a bit in the RTA 2004 about Part 4 tenancies being sublet or assigned.

    "the assignee shall become the tenant of the landlord under
    the     Part 4 tenancy"

    Sounds like the agreement with the landlord to take this person on means he has inherited Part 4 protection. OP mentions 1.5 years being a tenant, so they would need 42 days notice. Don't fully know how this works if they're all on the same lease.
    Unfortunately, assignments in Ireland are virtually never done legally - that is, no Deed of Assignment is completed and signed by the parties involved: the vacating tenant, the new tenant, the remaining tenant/s and the landlord.

    An assignee, moving in does not inherit Part 4 rights from the assignor but rather until s/he has been in the property for 6 months. Therefore 28 days notice is required.


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    #20
    whats_up
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭whats_up


    Update on this.

    After asking for an apology for the most recent aggressive behaviour I received a string of insults and accusations. I am going to ask the landlord to give him 28 days written notice, which I expect the landlord will be ok with. The problem tenant has said he isn't going anywhere, what would happen if he stayed past the 28 days?

    Thanks guys, I appreciate the advice


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    #21
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    If it were me I would cut my losses and look for somewhere else to live even if you have to honour the rest of the lease. Life is too short.


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    #22
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,614 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    whats_up wrote: »
    Update on this.

    After asking for an apology for the most recent aggressive behaviour I received a string of insults and accusations. I am going to ask the landlord to give him 28 days written notice, which I expect the landlord will be ok with. The problem tenant has said he isn't going anywhere, what would happen if he stayed past the 28 days?

    Thanks guys, I appreciate the advice

    Sounds familiar.

    Me and housemate were on very good terms with landlord (housemate was a 2nd cousin or some such). The 3rd party was a bit of a horror show as a housemate.

    Landlord asked him to leave and he did.He wasn't happy about it but he left.


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    #23
    whats_up
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭whats_up


    Yeah I expect the landlord will support our decision, thanks guys. If he were to refuse to go though as he has implied, what could be done about that?


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    #24
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    If you assign a lease after getting Part 4, does the Part 4 transfer to the new tenant? (may not be applicable here, just wondering)
    djimi wrote: »
    Yes I believe so. Assigning a lease means that the new tenant is taking over your tenancy; they are not starting again.

    I could be wrong about that however.
    Yes, you are wrong!
    If a Part 4 tenancy is assigned, a new tenant (i.e. where the tenant is not a sub-tenant) does not acquire Part 4 rights until he has been in occupation for 6 months. Therefore, the assigned tenancy does not continue as a Part 4 tenancy but it becomes a Periodic tenancy (during the first 6 months) and converts to a Part 4 after six months.

    If the assignment is to a sub-tenant (i.e. the head tenant assigns to the sub-tenant) then the Part 4 rights of the head tenant pass to the sub-tenant and the tenancy continues as a Part 4 tenancy.

    It is therefore imperative to fully understand the difference between a tenant with a sub-let and a licencee. Many posts on boards refer to a licencee as a person who sub-lets which is completely erroneous.

    Again, where a Part 4 tenancy is assigned to a new tenant is one of the occasions when a Periodic tenancy comes into existence and is slightly different to a Part 4 tenancy as can be seen that after six months of occupation, the tenant acquires Part 4 rights.


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