<SNIP>: Fire hazard in 4 vans!

cormie

Hi folks,
Have had a bit of a lengthy issue with some auto electric work I needed done in 4 vehicles. The initial goal was to set up a secondary battery source to power a dash cam in each van so it would remain recording even when the ignition was off, without draining the main battery of the van.

I started a thread in the motors forum which can be viewed here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056821273

As can be seen, I was recommended a certain battery type and ended up buying 4 of them, along with the other equipment supposedly required. Now all I needed was to find a professional auto electrician to carry out the actual installation. I ended up going with the aforementioned after being recommended him on THIS thread I started: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84440325

ang him up and he said he could do it, I explained the situation and straight away I could tell he knew what he was talking about, he even explained that Transit vans required something additional for what I was after and was maybe why a previous solution didn't work, this was also great to hear. Made a booking which he had to cancel due to a few other projects taking longer than expected, no problem for me, he gave me notice and we rearranged and he showed up as expected on the day.

Again I explained what exactly I wanted, what the desired solution was for each van and showed him what equipment I had to achieve this. He didn't give any indication of any issues with the parts I had and started the work. Very clean and professional work. He's in a sign written jeep displaying audio and alarm installation and has a boot full of cables and tools so had everything he needed. He said €50 per hour over the phone when I first rang him, but it turned out to be €60+VAT and he charged the full 4 hours when it was less than 3.5 so worked out a bit more expensive than expected but the job was done right. He also discovered an issue which is the probable cause of extra drain on one of my batteries which is cool. He cleaned up all the loose and trailing wires from previous work I had done too.

So it ended up costing €272.40, a lot higher than another guy I had used before but had since moved down the country and a good bit higher than quoted too but I didn't get into a debate over the overcharge. All seemed well and was giving me the desired result,that is, until I actually started driving the vehicles for an extended period (no more than 5-10 minutes) as opposed to just starting the ignition when they were parked to test the set up. When driving I got a burning smell so pulled over immediately and realised that the wires connecting the secondary battery were scalding hot and were actually melting, creating the smell. I had to disconnect it, but imagine if I had the windows down fully and then parked up to load the van and left the engine running (necessary sometimes if using the tail lift a lot). I could have seen the front cab turn into an inferno. Once I had a chance I tested the rest of the vans and they all had the same issue, each one started melting the wires once it was being driven for over 5 minutes.

I rang him up and said what happened and he rang back to say he was speaking to another lad who said I'd need to buy 4 different batteries, the same size as the primary battery in each van to resolve a difference in running voltage which according to the first thread I linked to, was causing the issue. This wasn't an option as it would have cost at least an extra €250 and I had already gone over budget on the job. I told him I'd get back to him with a decision, I returned to the thread and explained there and was given a multitude of options and possible causes, but given the difference of batteries, none of them were guaranteed to work 100%. I ended up going with a solution where I was to buy resistors for each set up that would take some of the drain.

This solution took a while to arrive at and I got back onto Greg to arrange him to come back to resolve the issue. There was, as expected, no mention of price. He was out at the first van fitting it and I went back inside, he rang me but I was on a call so came out when I finished the call 3 minutes later, he told me to feel the resistor and it was pretty warm, he said he had it on the pavement for the last 3 minutes and he almost burnt his hand on it and said it was steaming when it was connected up.

Didn't sound like it was going to work so then we were thinking what to do. He said if I was to replace the batteries with moped batteries they would be the same size but also be the same voltage as the car battery so there'd be no issue with the excess voltage. I told him I didn't want to spend any more money on it and he got a price anyway, he said it'd be about €45 a battery, so about €180 total, I said I think I'll just forget about the cameras being powered after the ignition is off and to just turn them on and off with the ignition and we'd leave it at that. He said that would definitely be cheaper anyway... I wasn't sure if I understood him right, that he wanted to charge me for fixing the set up he did that had each battery he installed smoking and causing a serious fire hazard after I already paid him €270 odd?

I double checked and yup, he wanted to charge me about €100 to put the cameras to turn on/off with the ignition, which for me was the last resort as I knew this was basic auto electric work but wasn't achieving what I wanted or what I had paid him the €272.40 to do originally, I actually had the cameras set up like this prior to the secondary battery idea. I wasn't very happy and tried to compromise and say that if he could just fit them to do that, we could call it quits, as in, it's a much quicker job than the whole aux battery set up I wanted, so would have been cheaper initially had he known the battery set-up would have failed. I was actually thinking of a partial refund if this had to be the end solution, not for me to be charged again.

There was no budging him and he said he wasn't going to work for free. I said that I felt it was his responsibility to fix the problem after he took on the job and charged me accordingly. He said that it's not up to him to know whether it would work or not because I supplied the batteries and that if he assessed the job himself and supplied the equipment it would be different. He said it would be like me going to a tyre fitter with a tyre I bought online and trying to blame the tyre fitter if it blew after a few miles. I don't think it's like this at all, I explained the end result I wanted and I believe if he's selling himself as an expert in such services, he should have known how to achieve the results or not taken on the job, or suggested using a different battery if he suspected there'd be any issues with the ones I supplied. Nothing of the sort was mentioned until they started smoking after I had paid him. He ended up pretty much just walking away from me and driving off. I'm not one to raise my voice or lose my cool, I told him I thought it was terrible service. Which considering the vans are part of a young but growing business, isn't the best business from his side as he's just lost a lot of potential future business.

I ended up getting another auto electrician to do the job, http://www.goldenpages.ie/brian-murphy-auto-electricals-sallins/1/ and he put them back to just working off the ignition and we forgot about the secondary battery idea.

So I'm just wondering where I stand with the above. I'm out of pocket €272.40 on a botch, hazardous job, which, out of principal, I'd prefer in my pocket than his. The question I guess is whether as a professional who I guess would be expected to know what he's working with, is the responsibility with him to either reimburse me for the failed job or of course not take on the job in the first place. If he had a call out fee and said he couldn't do it, there'd be no arguments there, but he never mentioned anything to indicate there may be any issues or that the onus would be on me as I supplied the gear if it wasn't to work. From what I gathered, he knew exactly what he was doing and there were no compatibility issues with anything I supplied.

Any feedback appreciated

Gary ITR

If you had gone to him first and let him advise you what was needed to do the job then youd have an argument but you supplied the stuff and it went wrong, not what you want to hear but you made your bed.

cormie

Well that's what I'm trying to determine here. I'm open to that possibility but given that he is advertising this type of job as his area of expertise and charging accordingly, with no indication given that I was taking any risks that it may not work etc, where do I stand? He mentioned nothing of the sort.

His comparison was me bringing a tyre I bought online to a local fitter and getting them to fit it and it blowing 20 minutes later. That would be the tyre at fault (unless it wasn't fit properly) and would of course be my issue to take up with the supplier of the tyre... whiiiich actually happened me before (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056076371) and I took the issue up with the tyre supplier and NOT the fitter

My own comparison would be if I was a complete tyre ignoramus (I'm completely clueless when it comes to electrics), had brought a tyre for a moped I bought online to a professional tyre fitter, told him I wanted to be able to use the tyre for the next several thousand miles, carrying full loads and going at high speeds, showed him the tyre and he happily fit it on my Luton Transit even though it's the wrong size, rating etc, he shows it to me, it appears fine and then ends up causing issues further on up the road.

ironclaw

I really don't understand this at all. The secondary batteries shouldn't even be warming up as the only way they would get warm would be from a current draw. If they are secondary, they should only engage when the primary i.e. Car battery is disconnected e.g. When the vehicle is turned off. So they shouldn't be getting warm in use (The current draw (and therefore potential heat) on a DVR is pretty much nothing)

I'm an Electronic Engineer myself and this has me puzzled. Sounds like either really bad wiring or shoddy batteries. Few photos maybe?

cormie

I'm not sure you want to get into this ironclaw :P If you have a few hours to kill, have a click into the first thread I've linked to. It's a huuuuuge discussion on this, one post took me almost an hour to read and I can only imagine how long it took Derry the author to write

fivesixtwo

From what I can see , there are 2 problems here .

1. The OP wanted some equipment installed into vehicles ,which by reading between the lines ,ie dash cams are more than likely some cheap and nasty crap from the far east . problem with actually fitting this rubbish in a road going vehicle is that fitting any non "E " marked electronics items into vehicle will invalidate any warranty and should have insurance implications in event of a crash or fire .

2. Any self respecting installer would run a mile if asked to fit dangerous crap into a vehicle ,
In that its a fair guess that he hasnt got a clue , and most importantly probably has no product or PL insurance , as if he had he wouldnt risk his policy ,
Probably has a fancy van , jeep with loads of signwriting , but no assets , insurance , qualifications or proper training , not a hope of getting a penny if you vans went up in smoke ,


There is proper gear out there do do that job , and competent people to do it .

cormie

Thanks for the reply.

Are you saying that using any non E marked electric products, whether it be charging one from the cig adapter etc, would result in insurance issues if there were to be any incident?

The cameras I have were the best available on the market at the time of purchase, so although they are far away from cheap and nasty crap from the far east, I'm not sure they have the E mark. http://dashcamtalk.com/itronics-itb-100hd/

So is there no clear cut answer from a consumer point who should be responsible here?

Celly Smunt

Sounds like you have a current problem not a voltage one.Voltage is only potential energy, current is what moves it.

I reckon you bought dash cams which are designed to be powered by the cigarette lighter source which resists the current,however the dash cams were hooked directly to the battery meaning fry time.

Consumer wise, you gave him the equipment, hes a monkey but you didnt supply him with the correct equipment.

rock22

I would say, you have employed a "professional" to carry out some work. They have created a potential life threatening situation in your vans.
You certainly have actionable case against the contractor. Not sure if you can take this to the small claims court, as it is a service, but worth enquiring with the court registrar.

On a technical matter, fitting bigger batteries will not change the voltage. However it will provide much more current to "really get the fire going".

ironclaw

Celly Smunt wrote: »

I reckon you bought dash cams which are designed to be powered by the cigarette lighter source which resists the current,however the dash cams were hooked directly to the battery meaning fry time.

In electronic terms, thats absolute nonsense. The DVR will only draw the current it requires. As along as the battery can maintain the correct voltage for the current draw, its perfectly ok. The issue arises when the DVR is drawing current in excess of what the battery can supply. That will cause a voltage dip and a good deal of heat.

Just because an output (Cigarette Lighter or Battery) can supply say 2 amps of current, doesn't mean it supplies 2 amps of current to everything plugged into it. It can supply up to 2 amps of current and DVRs in this case would be pulling at most 200mA in my experience, so it will supply 200mA as that is all the circuit is demanding.

fivesixtwo

First of all you really need to find out how much knowledge and expertise the original installer actually has , does he even have a knowledge of basic electronics ? chances are he or she has a "DEGREE from "CITY AND GUILDS " that they bought over a weekend .
The matter of "E" marking comes into play when you fit or install these products into a vehicle , plugging into a cig lighter is not installing , but when these non "E" marked items are fitted in a permanent manner it becomes a different matter .
There are lots of products with the ce mark or e mark on the market here that have not been tested for use in road going vehicles , a good indication of this si when there are no contact details for the MFR or Dist,in the box .

There are even products with FAKE E and CE marks on them !

As for the install itself , I can only assume that sealed lead acid batteries were fitted . but these need to be charged at a constant voltage , it does need someone who knows what they are doing to design and install a system to do this properly and safely .

The best indication as to whether MR Engineer with the fancy van or jeep is legit is to ask to see his PL and product liability insurance , most of the city and guilds cowboys dont have this .

He probably hasnt even fitted a fuse on the whole mess either , wires twisted together , not soldered , loose insulating tape , components lying loose under the dash , Disaster waiting to happen .

My advice would be to remove the whole lot on each van when you are there and make him repair any damaged wiring and ensure your vans are in a safe manner to use and drive .

cormie

Seems this thread is turning more into a what could have went wrong and what way it should be set up rather than my consumer rights having paid €272.40 for a job which ended in a potential fire hazard in 4 vans Any advice on that would be great, but still appreciate the interest in the actual set up, so to expand on that, I've taken this from the linked to thread which should explain the set up:

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the reply! Here is the set up that was used:

Main Battery: Each van has a different one
Dash Cam: http://dashcamtalk.com/itronics-itb-100hd/
Aux Battery: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Ritar-RT12120EV-12v-12ah-EV-series-battery-BRAND-NEW-12M-RTB-warranty/180727344181?ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1&ih=008&category=48619&cmd=ViewItem
Relay: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/NEW-CAR-BIKE-12V-70A-5-PIN-CHANGEOVER-RELAY-SWICH-X-5-/400165310746?pt=UK_In_Car_Technology&hash=item5d2bb6111a#ht_5019wt_754
Resistor: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Ceramic-Wirewound-Resistor-1-2-Ohm-20-Watt-5-/230791140333?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Speaker_Parts&hash=item35bc3953ed

Video of set up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB4xsG28K6w

That's pretty much everything. You can see the size of the wires used etc in the video.

I supplied all parts other than the cables. I'm not sure if anything else was added.

Before doing this I had the dash cams connected by another auto electrician to the back of the radio, this meant they were only turned on when the engine was on and it meant a much cleaner set up as the wires were hidden away. I'd rather this than using the cigarette socket as it's pretty much always in use anyway with something or other. Then I wanted the aux battery idea and I basically haven't been able to use the cameras for what seems like close to a year at this stage with all the messing about.

I think at this stage it might be best just to settle on ignition power only, so when the car is off, the camera is off, unfortunately. I just didn't realise it would be so complicated.



The guy in question advertises himself as "Audio and Auto Alarms Ltd" and does mobile auto electrical work. I told him exactly what I wanted to happen with the set up and showed him the equipment I had. He didn't once say it mightn't work or that there might be any issues, he just connected it all up, showed the cameras working when the engine was on, got paid and left. Then after he left upon the first time driving one of the vehicles, it started smoking and I had to disconnect the set up. This subsequently happened to each vehicle he did the set up in. As him being the supposed professional and taking on such a job, I would expect him to know what he's dealing with if charging me for the job and if there were any doubts from his end, I should have been informed before he did the job. When the whole set up poses such a hazard and for him to then expect to be paid to rectify it, is a bit absurd. I'll be posting about it in the consumer issues forum I think to see where I stand, because at the moment, I've just thrown €270 away. As someone who knows a lot more about the ins and outs of electrics than I do, do you reckon knowing the result of what happened was out of his hands, or is it something he should have taken caution with?

ironclaw

That video is scary to be honest. A temporary install, no bother. But its very messy for a permanent, pro-end install.

cormie

Sorry, just to make a point that this recording was taken after the wires had started smoking which is why you can see the battery has one terminal disconnected and I've taken the battery out from under the front part of the seat, although it wasn't secured down, it was tricky enough to get out from under the seat.

dudara

Posters - this is Consumer Issues. Either you focus on the consumer side of matters, or I move it to Motors where you can discuss the technical aspects.

@cormie - let me know option you'd prefer.

dudara

fivesixtwo

Well a picture paints a thousand words , this video is something else ,

What kind of idiot would run a cable from a car battery without putting a fuse at source ? cable loose unprotected over metal as well .

As I stated already , sealed lead acid batteries need to be charged from a constant voltage supply , not a variable one such as a vehicle which could be from 11.5 - 15.0volts .
The batteries will be destroyed in no time anyway , a resistor will only limit the current , it will not provide a stable voltage supply .

This guys work is dangerous to say the least , but as he probably has no insurance , no assets , leased jeep , rented appt, you wouldnt have a hope .

Sadly its the norm in this business , Best of luck chasing the guy ,

cormie

Thanks for the replies. Dudara, is there any way you can push the technical posts to the thread I linked to in the first post? This thread was just to check where I stand as a consumer and explain how it got to that point, I had pretty much given up on the idea as explained in the original thread down about €600 (cost of parts, cost to get the first guy to do it - the fire hazard setup and cost to get the 2nd guy to fix it back to the way it was - originally it was ignition live via the radio) and seeing if I had any rights with regards getting the €270 odd the guy charged me

The Glass Key

Sorry OP but I think that everyone has missed a point here you aren't a consumer you are a business (4 vans) so afaik normal consumer law doesn't apply. Instead I think your only option is the courts?

If I'm wrong on that I'm sure someone will let me know.

ironclaw

You probably have a case to get your money back but that doesn't mean you can get your money back. Consumer law is great and pretty to look at, but when it actually comes to getting your money back, you'll probably have to spend money to get your money back i.e. Solicitors etc. You would also have to prove the system was dangerous and a fire hazard, seeing as you have removed it, you can't now and it would have had to have been an Engineers report or similar.

If it was me, I'd call the business up, get him to drop out and explain the situation. He may be fourth coming with some renumeration, if not, I'd leave it lie as a lesson learned. There are plenty of cowboys in the Auto and Electrical industry.

dudara

Good point from The Glass Key. Was this a business transaction?

cormie

Yep, was a business transaction alright, so what's there to protect a small business being messed around other than taking it up via the courts costing probably more between time taken to arrange, time in court, paperwork and possibly a solicitor too?

Had the chap out to install the resistors to see if they would fix the problem, no luck with that and he wasn't willing to put them back to how I had them before and pretty much just hopped in his van and off he went. Pity the business can't be named to warn others away.

dudara

Unfortunately, Consumer rights only apply to individuals buying goods & services as regular punters. Business transactions are not covered. I'll move this to Business & Entrepreneurial Management to see if anyone there can offer advice.

dudara

The Glass Key

Am I wrong to think that the remit of the Small Claims Court was extended a while back and can now be used in cases such as this? Probably wrong but something I remember reading about.

Peterdalkey

Taking him to court for under 300 quid is just not worth the potential costs that could be incurred. A judge is going to want independent expert testimony, you are getting into heavy money now!

A solicitors letter threatening legal action and a request for a refund of monies paid might get you somewhere. Otherwise I think you are probably throwing good money after bad. As others have said, you can't get feathers from a frog! If he is not a good mark for the money, forget it!

You can probably count yourself lucky that you don't have 4 burned out vans with your own insurance cover denied, and are seeking to sue an uninsured man of straw!

cormie

Thanks Peter, I was thinking the same thing of just getting a solicitors letter and see if that will work. Other than that, yep, just wouldn't be worth the hassle and cost!

The Glass Key

The Glass Key wrote: »

Am I wrong to think that the remit of the Small Claims Court was extended a while back and can now be used in cases such as this? Probably wrong but something I remember reading about.

After further investigation I wasn't imagining it....

http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/781D7D5227918A618025715C004CAEF3?opendocument&l=en&p=110 states...

(b) a claim for goods or services bought for business use from someone selling them in the course of a business (business claims)

cormie

Thank a lot for that! Very helpful of you! So maybe a letter saying I may look to take him to the SCC is in order

The Glass Key

cormie wrote: »

Thank a lot for that! Very helpful of you! So maybe a letter saying I may look to take him to the SCC is in order

The point if the SCC is its cheap and simple so if you are writing a letter then there is little point in using a solicitor.

The procedure is to write and keep a copy of a letter sent by registered post indicating that you are Formally Complaining in writing about the work carried out and that you are giving the guy 2 weeks to provide a fix for the issue before taking the matter further. The advantage of that approach is the court won't say you haven't taken every reasonable step to resolve the issue before going to the court.

cormie

Thanks again for the advice

So before I do this, any more opinions from a moral/fair view whether he should refund me or should I absolve him from responsibility given that I provided the gear? I've given the tyre fitter examples previously to show what I think myself

The Glass Key

I wouldn't use the tire fitter analogy but you asked for a service and didn't get one that was to the standard you would expect from someone who calls themselves a professional in this area.

You provided the basic equipment to be fitted in the same way you'd provide a radio if you wanted a radio fitted and he didn't even put a fuse in the circuit and just blindly joined up wires in a dangerous manor. He should have stopped and said sorry your an idiot this isn't going to work but instead he just wanted the money carried on and left a dangerous installation. If he wanted the money he could have connected it up knowing it wouldn't work but at least have put in some fuses that would have blown before the wires burnt out.

The fact he came back and failed a second time speaks volumes about his level of skill. In bulk in line fuse links wouldn't cost him a euro each yet he failed to install the most basic safety feature. If you were just complaining that it didn't work and kept blowing fuses I would be more likely to say tough luck but as there were no fuses I think you have a case because someone trading as a professional fitter should have known they are an essential safety feature.

riveratom

Is it the done thing to purchase the equipment before consulting with whoever is going to install it? I don't think the tire analogy works as surely you would drop in / call the garage before purchasing anything?

It sounds like he did a botch job or flat out didn't know what he was doing, but if he was the one to purchase the equipment it would be much clearer who was at fault as he would have had responsibility for the entire job from start to finish.