<SNIP>: Fire hazard in 4 vans!

cormie

Thanks again for the replies. I had actually bought the equipment based on the suggestions in the original thread, which I was then going to get my original auto electrician to fit but he had since moved down the country so I had to find this new guy.

Is there definitely no fuses from what you can see in the video? I see two connected on one part of the wiring but I don't know what these are for and they obviously didn't prevent the wires heating and smoking.

I don't like the tyre analogy either, he gave the example of the tyre fitter when he came so I was just giving another analogy of how it seems to me

riveratom

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the replies. I had actually bought the equipment based on the suggestions in the original thread, which I was then going to get my original auto electrician to fit but he had since moved down the country so I had to find this new guy.

Is there definitely no fuses from what you can see in the video? I see two connected on one part of the wiring but I don't know what these are for and they obviously didn't prevent the wires heating and smoking.

I don't like the tyre analogy either, he gave the example of the tyre fitter when he came so I was just giving another analogy of how it seems to me

Well what I mean is surely it would make more sense to find the person who is going to do the job first, and ask him what is required. Or just have them purchase the equipment they require to do the job first (like you would with a tradesman).

If I need someone to do a job and I am completely unfamiliar with the area, I would be looking to them to tell me what is needed from start to finish - I wouldn't be asking the internet what batteries I need Something to bear in mind for the future perhaps.

I also wouldn't go the official route just yet, pester him for a refund or at least some sort of agreement first.

cormie

Yeah, that's what I'd usually do alright, thought I'd see if it was possible first by posting it on boards and then that just resulted in me asking about parts and getting them too

Might pop him a letter asking for a refund and see where that gets me. Thanks again!

The Glass Key

Sorry OP I hadn't managed to watch any of the video before because my connection speed is so slow but there are obviously 2 fuses mounted in the cables which is what I'd expect. One should be 1-2 Amps and the other around 5 Amps (cable is probably 5 Amps or more and the resistor is rated under 5 Amps) from the quick flash in the photo I think you have 5 Amp and 15 Amp, these will protect you if there is a dead short but the cable with the 15 Amp would get hot enough to burn/melt the plastic before it blew.

Edit, sorry again had stopped the video to see the colours of the fuses and picked a spot when the green fuse looked a bit blue so it might be a 30/35Amp fuse which would be much worse and less safe.

Just take a look at the Orange and Blue/Green things 10 seconds into the video and see what numbers are written on them.

scwazrh

Going back to the OP's original question of what to do abut money paid over for basically nothing, I would do the following.Contact the installer again tell him again that the work was poor quality and you shouldn't of had to pay that amount.Tell him you're willing to pay a small amount for his call out but you want a refund of the balance and will then forget about the issue .If he's proffesional he should agree , if not tell him that you will be leaving poor reviews for him online and then put the whole experience down to a leaning curve.

cormie

Thanks again for the replies. I just checked the fuses there, I couldn't find the orange one, maybe the other spark needed them for something or put them somewhere but the green one is marked 30 if that makes a difference?

fivesixtwo

Just looking at the video again , from what I can see there is no fuse fitted at the source of the power , ie the vehicle battery , If the guy knew what he was doing this would be where a fuse should be fitted , simple .

According to consumer law , the person doing the job should have the necessary skills and qualifications to do the job , there are so many people out there in this field who have the cheek to call themselves "ENGINEERS" who do not have a Degree , Diploma or any third level qualification .

Paying 500 euros to do a City and Guilds course over a day is not what you can call qualified ,
There are simple reasons why the set up you have shown and described could not have worked in the first place , and its all down to a lack of even the basic electronics knowledge .

You are one of the lucky few that have taken the crap out of your vehicles , There are thousands of others driving around in death traps unknown to them caused by so called alarm and mobile phone "ENGINEERS ".

Ie no fuses on equipment and cables and components mounted in front of and across air bags . Ive seen it all .

A very quick way to test any installer is ask them to produce their PL insurance . vast amount of them dont have it , and the customer hasnt got a hope of any compensation when something goes wrong , let alone something that contributes to injury or death .
Van or Jeep on HP, living in a flat or rented house no assets . Not a hope .

cormie

I think my reply to this was lost in the site maintenance

I don't think the guy is advertising himself as an engineer, but just an auto electrician which is a title obtained via an apprenticeship from what I know, apprenticeships usually being 4 years long with both on-site and college time having to be served? Either way, I still feel hard done by here

ironclaw

Engineer isn't a protected title like 'Dentist' or 'Doctor' as such anyone can title themselves as an Engineer. No disrespect intended, but I believe the politically correct term for 'Bin Man' is 'Environmental Waste Engineer' Its a little annoying for those of us that spent 5+ years in college studying and becoming chartered.

Either way, the title or training is irrelevant in this case. Ireland just seems to have a huge number of people who seem something done once and think 'I could so that' and so they do. But throw a spanner in the works or ask a questions, and they haven't breeze.

@cormie, could you link me exactly the post of what you are trying to do and the 'plan' you were following? I still can't make sense of the parts list and what way they were going to work together. It seems over the top for the job.

spaceHopper

The root cause of the problem is that the batteries you supplied were not automotive batteries they can't handle the high voltage from the alternator and resulting charging current. They go low low resistance and draw more cuttent than they should and IR losses wire cause over heating. If the wire hadn't gone the batteries would have. You picked them so have to take some of the blame.

Next time pay the money and get it done properly. His suggestion of motor bike batteried wasn't a bad one but I think you would be better off with campervan leisure batteries

cormie

ironclaw wrote: »

@cormie, could you link me exactly the post of what you are trying to do and the 'plan' you were following? I still can't make sense of the parts list and what way they were going to work together. It seems over the top for the job.

Apologies for the late reply on this. Thanks again for your interest in it

So the goal was to ultimately have my dash cams running 24/7. I had been using dash cams for a while in my vans and for added security and surveillance, I wanted to have them running while the vans weren't in use, but to not have this affect the battery life of the vehicles at all. The idea so was to get a secondary/auxiliary battery which would power the dash cams when the vans were turned off, if this was drained, it wouldn't affect the main battery at all.

I wanted the whole set up to have absolutely no need for any manual intervention. I didn't want to have to remember to disconnect a and switch on b etc so the idea was to have the aux battery charge only when the ignition was on and that even if the aux battery was dead and needed a while to charge up after the ignition was turned on, that the camera would still be able to have enough power to start immediately when the ignition was turned back on and not have to wait for the aux battery to have enough to power it. The relay switch was then needed to accomplish this I believe.

So it was set up and it was working as expected in each van until the engine was going more than a few minutes and the burning started. It was then suggested from folks on boards to try use a resistor and this might stop the overheating but this didn't work either.

Main Battery: Each van has a different one
Dash Cam: http://dashcamtalk.com/itronics-itb-100hd/
Aux Battery: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Ritar-RT12120EV-12v-12ah-EV-series-battery-BRAND-NEW-12M-RTB-warranty/180727344181?ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1&ih=008&category=48619&cmd=ViewItem
Relay: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/NEW-CAR-BIKE-12V-70A-5-PIN-CHANGEOVER-RELAY-SWICH-X-5-/400165310746?pt=UK_In_Car_Technology&hash=item5d2bb6111a#ht_5019wt_754
Resistor: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Ceramic-Wirewound-Resistor-1-2-Ohm-20-Watt-5-/230791140333?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Speaker_Parts&hash=item35bc3953ed

spaceHopper wrote: »

The root cause of the problem is that the batteries you supplied were not automotive batteries they can't handle the high voltage from the alternator and resulting charging current. They go low low resistance and draw more cuttent than they should and IR losses wire cause over heating. If the wire hadn't gone the batteries would have. You picked them so have to take some of the blame.

Next time pay the money and get it done properly. His suggestion of motor bike batteried wasn't a bad one but I think you would be better off with campervan leisure batteries

Thanks for the reply. I understand I'm the one who picked the wrong batteries for the job and accept that, but if people on the internet are telling me it's the wrong battery for the job just going by what I described, then somebody I'm asking and paying to do the job, should be able to tell me this too I feel

The Glass Key

cormie wrote: »

Apologies for the late reply on this. Thanks again for your interest in it

So the goal was to ultimately have my dash cams running 24/7. I had been using dash cams for a while in my vans and for added security and surveillance, I wanted to have them running while the vans weren't in use, but to not have this affect the battery life of the vehicles at all. The idea so was to get a secondary/auxiliary battery which would power the dash cams when the vans were turned off, if this was drained, it wouldn't affect the main battery at all.

I wanted the whole set up to have absolutely no need for any manual intervention. I didn't want to have to remember to disconnect a and switch on b etc so the idea was to have the aux battery charge only when the ignition was on and that even if the aux battery was dead and needed a while to charge up after the ignition was turned on, that the camera would still be able to have enough power to start immediately when the ignition was turned back on and not have to wait for the aux battery to have enough to power it. The relay switch was then needed to accomplish this I believe.

So it was set up and it was working as expected in each van until the engine was going more than a few minutes and the burning started. It was then suggested from folks on boards to try use a resistor and this might stop the overheating but this didn't work either.

Main Battery: Each van has a different one
Dash Cam: http://dashcamtalk.com/itronics-itb-100hd/
Aux Battery: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Ritar-RT12120EV-12v-12ah-EV-series-battery-BRAND-NEW-12M-RTB-warranty/180727344181?ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1&ih=008&category=48619&cmd=ViewItem
Relay: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/NEW-CAR-BIKE-12V-70A-5-PIN-CHANGEOVER-RELAY-SWICH-X-5-/400165310746?pt=UK_In_Car_Technology&hash=item5d2bb6111a#ht_5019wt_754
Resistor: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Ceramic-Wirewound-Resistor-1-2-Ohm-20-Watt-5-/230791140333?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Speaker_Parts&hash=item35bc3953ed



Thanks for the reply. I understand I'm the one who picked the wrong batteries for the job and accept that, but if people on the internet are telling me it's the wrong battery for the job just going by what I described, then somebody I'm asking and paying to do the job, should be able to tell me this too I feel

There is nothing wrong with the batteries, there is no idea battery because whatever you put in won't get the same use but will be getting the same charging voltage as the main battery. There would be less issue with the same battery as the main on but then you'd need the same cable sizes as come off the alternator, not sure of their actual size but they are at least 6mm.

That's what the "fitter" should have told you.

With any battery you really need some separate charge control circuitry even if it is just a light bulb.

ironclaw

The Glass Key wrote: »

With any battery you really need some separate charge control circuitry even if it is just a light bulb.

I was about to say that. The parts list has no mention of a charge controller etc which I ideally you need in this instance.

cormie

Thanks again for the info. I thought the batteries weren't suitable as they were going to a max of 12v or something whereas the main battery was at about 13/14 when driving/charging or had a heavly load coming from the car if the heating was on etc? Sorry, I haven't a clue what I'm talking about here, just going by what I thought I remember...

I don't suppose you're saying it could be set right with a lightbulb and thicker cables?

ironclaw

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the info. I thought the batteries weren't suitable as they were going to a max of 12v or something whereas the main battery was at about 13/14 when driving/charging or had a heavly load coming from the car if the heating was on etc? Sorry, I haven't a clue what I'm talking about here, just going by what I thought I remember...

I don't suppose you're saying it could be set right with a lightbulb and thicker cables?

With respect Cormie, your well off the mark there

You need a charge regulator for the battery. Basically that will connect to a suitable output i.e. The alternator or similar. That will prevent any large current or voltage spikes harming the battery. Once that is complete, you need a simple relay / diode arrangement to switch between the battery and the vehicle when you are stopped / driving.

The Glass Key

ironclaw wrote: »

With respect Cormie, your well off the mark there

You need a charge regulator for the battery. Basically that will connect to a suitable output i.e. The alternator or similar. That will prevent any large current or voltage spikes harming the battery. Once that is complete, you need a simple relay / diode arrangement to switch between the battery and the vehicle when you are stopped / driving.

We discussed using a light bulb in series as a regulator in another thread.

The battery can't draw more current than the light bulb and of course the resistance of the light bulb changes with the current and the heat that it creates. Its not a bad system but needs some fiddling about with bulbs to get the right one.

The relay is a given.

cormie

No surprise there, I'm so confused with everything about this So you're saying it's still possible to get it working properly and safely with the equipment I have and no further investment (other than maybe a lightbulb?)..


By the way, for anyone who's into electronics, I was doing a bit of a clearout today and have 3 of these:

to give away, can post anywhere in Ireland for free as a thanks for any help contributed. I got them to try combat a static hissing noise when you'd plug a cigarette socket charger into a phone/mp3 player that was playing music through Aux in on the radio. Never set them up but I don't think they are what's needed after all so don't need them.