Formula 1 2014: General Discussion Thread

Myrddin

Zcott wrote: »

Of course, the real issue is that the FIA said jump and RBR didn't jump.

Which would be made potentially worse if other teams did indeed, 'jump'.

_rebelkid

Myrddin wrote: »

Which would be made potentially worse if other teams did indeed, 'jump'.

They did jump. McLaren got a warning from the FIA and properly jumped. It's all stacked against RBR...

Myrddin

_rebelkid wrote: »

They did jump. McLaren got a warning from the FIA and properly jumped. It's all stacked against RBR...

Well that certainly makes Red Bulls appeal more difficult. If true, the appeal is dead in the water because otherwise what would the courts be saying? "Disregard FIA orders, it'll be grand."

SnowDrifts

Myrddin wrote: »

Well that certainly makes Red Bulls appeal more difficult. If true, the appeal is dead in the water because otherwise what would the courts be saying? "Disregard FIA orders, it'll be grand."

But they complied with the technical regulations and can prove that they did.

Myrddin

SnowDrifts wrote: »

But they complied with the technical regulations and can prove that they did.

Maybe so, I suppose then if the appeal is successful, it will leave a sour taste in the mouths of teams who did obey the FIA orders.

Do the technical regulations allow for fuel flow measurement from the fuel rail? Do they validate sensors & fuel flow data directly from the teams, rather than the 3rd party FIA sensor?

SnowDrifts

Myrddin wrote: »

Maybe so, I suppose then if the appeal is successful, it will leave a sour taste in the mouths of teams who did obey the FIA orders.

Do the technical regulations allow for fuel flow measurement from the fuel rail? Do they validate sensors & fuel flow data directly from the teams, rather than the 3rd party FIA sensor?

I'm nearly sure the regulation just states the 100kg/h rate and doesn't specify as to how it's measured.

It will be an interesting decision next month... they ignored the FIA but fully complied with the governing technical regulations of the sport.

Notably, Boullier said the following after Australia which would go against Red Bull again in that, The FIA clarified the issue long before Australia.

"It's clear that it was raised early enough that there was a little bit of an accuracy issue between the different sensors, but we have been working closely with the FIA since early January to make sure that we understand the needs and understand if we could improve the system," Boullier told crash.net.

"All the teams were obviously welcome and working all together.

"In the end the FIA took a position in Bahrain at the second test where it was clear that the fuel flow sensor would be the reference and had to be used, so we knew that there was a little bit of need to filter a little bit the signal; there was a little bit of deviation if you want and we had to be careful with the fuel flow.

"In the end we have been fully compliant during the race and the whole weekend actually like most of the teams."

http://www.planet-f1.com/driver/18227/9222531/Fuel-sensors-a-known-problem-Boullier

Going Strong

Myrddin wrote: »

Maybe so, I suppose then if the appeal is successful, it will leave a sour taste in the mouths of teams who did obey the FIA orders.

Do the technical regulations allow for fuel flow measurement from the fuel rail? Do they validate sensors & fuel flow data directly from the teams, rather than the 3rd party FIA sensor?

Not to mention opening a can of worms. If Red Bull win their case then every team can now claim that their fuel flow sensors are correct and not the FIA's one. Presumably, even if Red Bull are technically correct, they'll still fall foul of the "against the spirit of the rules" catch-all.

ZiabR

Myrddin wrote: »

Maybe so, I suppose then if the appeal is successful, it will leave a sour taste in the mouths of teams who did obey the FIA orders.

Exactly, which lets face it, is the rest of the grid. A number of teams were contacted during the race and they all did what the FIA asked. RBR are the only ones that would not obey the orders. The FIA cannot reverse the ruling.

Imagine they did reverse it, every other team would lodge a counter appeal because they all followed what they were asked to do and they will see it as RBR getting favoritism.

guyfo

OSI wrote: »

You can't end up with a situation where teams start appealing every techincal aspect because their measurements were different. "Our ruler says our wing was only X mms" etc.

A mm is a known value and never changes, as is the 100kg per hour fuel restriction, measuring that however is very hard and the sensors are never 100% accurate. The sensors only have a shelf life of 30 days before they need re-calibration.

What the fia should do is just change the rule to a simple restrictor of the same dimension to be fitted to all cars. Just a piece of pipe a certain diameter that the fuel goes through. I dont understand the need for complex electrical equipment.

christy c

If red bull can prove their measurement was correct, I don't see how the FIA can uphold the disqualification. The hard part will be proving it.

The rule is one line and very clear, it does not mention how it should be measured. FIA directives according to the Sky F1 show (I think), are interpretations of the rules.

The rule 5.1.4 :
"Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h"

Jordan 199

Drivers helmets this year.

Cookie_Monster

guyfo wrote: »

What the fia should do is just change the rule to a simple restrictor of the same dimension to be fitted to all cars. Just a piece of pipe a certain diameter that the fuel goes through. I dont understand the need for complex electrical equipment.

because something like that won't work. Since fuel is compressible they could easily force more into the same volume to increase the flow rate. The initial benchmark would have to be set with such a high pressure as to be impractical to actually use under normal condistions

mickdw

guyfo wrote: »

What the fia should do is just change the rule to a simple restrictor of the same dimension to be fitted to all cars. Just a piece of pipe a certain diameter that the fuel goes through. I dont understand the need for complex electrical equipment.

Pressure will have an effect of fuel flow through a restrictor type device. Similarly fuel volume and density is effected by temperature so again a restrictor will be inaccurate. Fuel measurement by mass is a much more consistent method. Still that is no good if you have a poor device for measuring. I'd imagine measuring instantaneous fuel flow by mass through a small electronic device would be quite complex though, hence the issues we have seen.

SnowDrifts

Sebastian on the sound of 2014 ... "It is sh*t" It is indeed Seb.

Sebastian Vettel has hit out at the sound of the 2014 Formula 1 cars.

Following criticism from some fans about the lack of volume of the new turbo engines compared to last year's V8s, Vettel believes that F1 has lost some of its magic this season.

Having watched from trackside at the Australian Grand Prix following his early retirement, he reckons the current cars sound terrible.

"It is s**t," declared Vettel when asked what he thought about the noise of the V6 turbo engines.

"I was on the pitwall during the race, and it is better [quieter] than in a bar!

"I think for the fans it is not good.

"I think F1 has to be spectacular - and the sound is one of the most important things.

"I remember when, although I don't remember much because I was six years old, but we went to see the cars live in free practice in Germany, and the one thing I remember was the sound.

"[I remember] how loud the cars were, and to feel the cars through the ground as it was vibrating. It is a shame we don't have that anymore."

Vettel's remarks are aligned with those of F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone, who has long been against the new engine rules.

The German's Red Bull team-mate Daniel Ricciardo acknowledged that the sound was quieter, but was more sanguine about the change.

"Once you're at full speed you still don't hear what's going on," said Ricciardo.

"There's still enough noise inside our helmets to block out the rest.

"I think it's alright. It's different, something else to get used to.

"I'll probably have good hearing for a bit longer so I'm not really complaining."

Lewis Hamilton, whose Mercedes is dominant at the moment, accepted that the noise was not as good - but believed that the new engines were better in other ways.

"It's OK," he said. "It's not special like it used to be, but it's a lot of power, so it's special in other ways."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113107

SnowDrifts

Elsewhere... those not following Craig Scarborough on twitter are seriously missing out. Some of his close-up photos he posts are really good...particularly over the last couple of days.

Zcott

Any ideas on how to make F1 noisier? I mean, do you have to put a speaker in somewhere, or some sort of noise enhancing box? It's not an easy one to solve and you can imagine the teams don't want to have to change the back end of the car if it turns out there needs to be an extra pipe or two.

Anyway, a bit of quiet didn't hurt Audi and Peugeot at Le Mans. Their diesels were so quiet the drivers needed engine noise pumped into their earpieces so they could hear what was going on...

ZiabR

So I was wrong, there will be a tribute to Flight MH370.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/03/27/tribute-planned-mh370-plane-crash-victims/

Peanut Butter Jelly

Zcott wrote: »

Any ideas on how to make F1 noisier? I mean, do you have to put a speaker in somewhere, or some sort of noise enhancing box? It's not an easy one to solve and you can imagine the teams don't want to have to change the back end of the car if it turns out there needs to be an extra pipe or two.

Anyway, a bit of quiet didn't hurt Audi and Peugeot at Le Mans. Their diesels were so quiet the drivers needed engine noise pumped into their earpieces so they could hear what was going on...

There's a thing called Acoustic Engineering. It's basically changing the width of certain parts of the exhaust and the way it curves and how the bits coming off the engine join up. The problem is there is a very short piece of exhaust from the turbo to where it exits so it will be very difficult to make a huge difference.

SnowDrifts

Malaysian GP: Lewis Hamilton to re-use Australian GP engine

You have to wonder how the FIA are going to keep track of each of the 6 elements of the power unit throughout the season. I mean, how many components can be changed/replaced before it's classed as being a new engine/MGU K etc. and hence, one of the allocated 5 gone?

Myrddin

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Malaysian GP: Lewis Hamilton to re-use Australian GP engine

You have to wonder how the FIA are going to keep track of each of the 6 elements of the power unit throughout the season. I mean, how many components can be changed/replaced before it's classed as being a new engine/MGU K etc. and hence, one of the allocated 5 gone?

Is the engine not defined as one unit (cylinder head, block & sump)? So:
Engine x5
MGU-H x5
MGU-K x5
etc etc

so five of each?

GarIT

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Malaysian GP: Lewis Hamilton to re-use Australian GP engine

You have to wonder how the FIA are going to keep track of each of the 6 elements of the power unit throughout the season. I mean, how many components can be changed/replaced before it's classed as being a new engine/MGU K etc. and hence, one of the allocated 5 gone?

All parts are branded by the FIA with a unique serial number and a system that would be nearly impossible to forge. It's fairly easy to keep track of them really.

GarIT

Myrddin wrote: »

Is the engine not defined as one unit (cylinder head, block & sump)? So:
Engine x5
MGU-H x5
MGU-K x5
etc etc

so five of each?

The whole power system is broken into 6 parts (I think it's 6), teams have 5 of each part. As you said the engine would be classed as one part. Parts cannot be separated.

_rebelkid

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Malaysian GP: Lewis Hamilton to re-use Australian GP engine

You have to wonder how the FIA are going to keep track of each of the 6 elements of the power unit throughout the season. I mean, how many components can be changed/replaced before it's classed as being a new engine/MGU K etc. and hence, one of the allocated 5 gone?

This year's Australian GP generated at least 55 technical documents. Like GarIT mentioned, all parts are FIA branded and coded, so the scrutineers know what's gone where. Any change the teams make, the FIA know. Most don't constitute a need to publish the document, but the most interesting one is Parc Fermé changes before a race, like these.

Myrddin

GarIT wrote: »

The whole power system is broken into 6 parts (I think it's 6), teams have 5 of each part.

Is the engine itself not counted as one part of the power unit now though? So five complete engines, five MGU-K units, five MGU-K units & so forth...

SnowDrifts

Myrddin wrote: »

Is the engine not defined as one unit (cylinder head, block & sump)? So:
Engine x5
MGU-H x5
MGU-K x5
etc etc

so five of each?

Yes exactly... the power unit is divided into 6 elements and you can have 5 of each. Therefore, if you are on your 5th engine and 4th turbo and subsequently, you need to change a turbo, you can do so without penalty because you still had one remaining. The engine is one complete part (one of 6) of the power unit.

GarIT

Myrddin wrote: »

Is the engine itself not counted as one part of the power unit now though? So five complete engines, five MGU-K units, five MGU-K units & so forth...

Yeah sorry I was agreeing with you, edited my post. Engine is one part, you can't interchange parts within the engine. Apparently parts are sealed together by the FAI no idea how though, I assume it's more complicated than a bit of superglue.

SamAK

Zcott wrote: »

Any ideas on how to make F1 noisier? It's not an easy one to solve

Screwdriver and a hammer, bash a few holes in some pipes? :rolleyes:

counterlock

Am I the only one who doesn't care about the noise of them?
They've never sounded particularly good for the past 15 years imo

KarlFitz01

counterlock wrote: »

Am I the only one who doesn't care about the noise of them?
They've never sounded particularly good for the past 15 years imo

Same about the first bit only watching F1 over a year now and the sound of the new cars doesn't bother me, I actually like them.

GTE

counterlock wrote: »

Am I the only one who doesn't care about the noise of them?
They've never sounded particularly good for the past 15 years imo

I am a fan of a solid low end in music so these engines are quite the treat.

SamAK

bbk wrote: »

I am a fan of a solid low end in music so these engines are quite the treat.

What you need is a bit of LFO

Top Dog

counterlock wrote: »

Am I the only one who doesn't care about the noise of them?
They've never sounded particularly good for the past 15 years imo

You're not alone.

I missed the entire first weekend of racing, so stayed up to watch FP1 & 2 last night, and I have to say I love the new sounds. Ok, so it could do with being slightly louder, but I love the new tone. Can now hear the tyres screeching, the wastegate chatter, the various noises from the energy systems.

I thought it was a bit like a step back to old rally car sounds. The new F1 cars reminded me of the old Metro 6R4, where the V8 would have been the annoying Civic being bounced off the limiter.

Even Bernie has slightly eaten his words admitting its not as bad as he'd thought after giving out heaps following Australia.

Killinator

https://twitter.com/specutainment/status/449616718626054144

SnowDrifts

Ted Kravitz stated on the F1 Show that Christian Horner said they believe a major manufacturer (they guessed to be Mercedes) bought 30/40 of these fuel flow meters and are selecting the ones which are more beneficial to them. A big chunk of change at £9,000 EACH and a further £6,000 to calibrate.

In contrast, Red Bull say they only have 5/6 meters. The FIA said they have no problem with teams buying multiple meters and selecting one of their choice. Good cost cutting huh....

Red Bull complaining about other teams' spending. Delicious :P

Oafley Jones

How anyone could prefer the noise of the new engines is beyond me..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9N7ObkhfF8

GTE

With the sound engineer hat on, I am wondering how much of the issue is down to volume and not the actual sound of the cars and vice versa. We can read that people are complaining about both, but I am wondering how much they relate and "intermingle" with each other in peoples preferences.

Given two V8s Ferrari engines, if we could turn the volume down a tad on one, people would tend to prefer the louder one. I am trying to remember where, but I read that even a 0.2 dB difference in SPL can show up these level related preference differences. Incidentally, the concept is the same reason adverts can be so much louder than programs but that is something which goes too far. Spotify is pissing me off in that regard, some jazz followed by some feckin dubstep advert.

Anyway, it would be interested to see what tests would reveal if each engine was played back at the same perceived loudness. That would rat out all the level related differences people may or may not be having and focus purely on the sound. Having a test where two V8s are presented where one is the same perceived loudness this years bunch of cars could be interesting.

That said, I am rambling as I just realised if I started my MSc project 6 months later I may have picked this as a topic area and had much more fun

If anyone wants to sponsor me to hang around a few grand prix this year with my handy recorder, by all means give me a shout

_rebelkid

bbk wrote: »

With the sound engineer hat on, I am wondering how much of the issue is down to volume and not the actual sound of the cars and vice versa. We can read that people are complaining about both, but I am wondering how much they relate and "intermingle" with each other in peoples preferences.

Given two V8s Ferrari engines, if we could turn the volume down a tad on one, people would tend to prefer the louder one. I am trying to remember where, but I read that even a 0.2 dB difference in SPL can show up these level related preference differences. Incidentally, the concept is the same reason adverts can be so much louder than programs but that is something which goes too far. Spotify is pissing me off in that regard, some jazz followed by some feckin dubstep advert.

Anyway, it would be interested to see what tests would reveal if each engine was played back at the same perceived loudness. That would rat out all the level related differences people may or may not be having and focus purely on the sound. Having a test where two V8s are presented where one is the same perceived loudness this years bunch of cars could be interesting.

That said, I am rambling as I just realised if I started my MSc project 6 months later I may have picked this as a topic area and had much more fun

If anyone wants to sponsor me to hang around a few grand prix this year with my handy recorder, by all means give me a shout

I'll set up and Indiegogo....

_rebelkid

Very Interesting question from Kate Walker about youth engagement and F1, in regards to on-line content in the Friday Team Presser:

Q: (Kate Walker – crash.net) Carrying on with the theme of young people
engagement and what can and can’t be done, to what extent do you think that
broadcasting rights issues coming from the commercial rights holder, the
inability of people to discover Formula One on Youtube, to use the sources
that they use in their everyday lives, is preventing Formula One from growing
a youth audience?
Federico Gastalgi (Lotus): That’s an interesting question. I think, again, we have to be careful what we say
to the youngsters. But I think if we put together the right tools – you mentioned
Youtube – this is a sport, we just need to have the right package to show to the
young people, to be an example for them, so that’s my point of view.
Cyril Abiteboul (Caterham): It’s a tricky question. I think we need to find the right balance between the
accessibility, exclusivity and value. I think that there is a belief right now that more
exclusivity creates value. Maybe this was true, maybe it’s less true with new media
where it’s more the distribution and our people need to react with content that is
creating value. If you look at Facebook, there is nothing exclusive in Facebook and I
think that the value of the IPO of Facebook is quite historic, just like the value of
different transactions that have just happened so you may argue that there is a
bubble of internet but I think Formula One would be happy to have such a bubble. I
think those are the sort of things that we maybe have to look at, that maybe a lack of
exclusivity maybe does not mean a lack of value.

Grim.

interesting to see the Porsche LMP1 team have had trouble with the same fuel flow sensor saying it's unreliable. according to racecar engineering on Twitter

Donnelly117

Oafley Jones wrote: »

How anyone could prefer the noise of the new engines is beyond me..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9N7ObkhfF8

That video sums it up for me, the new engines sound s*** in comparison.

Gillespy

All it shows me is the speed and cornering of F1 compared to two fast cars driven by pros. That's what is impressive. What they're doing now mightn't literally be the scream of science but it really is. Sound isn't what defines F1.(I realise I may have done a 180 on that last bit)

_rebelkid

Y2KBOS86

Donnelly117 wrote: »

That video sums it up for me, the new engines sound s*** in comparison.

This is a good comparison video as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS4Dh_EAfJI

Heads should roll for what they have done.

Everyone in the crowd looks so bored.

Cookie_Monster

Oafley Jones wrote: »

How anyone could prefer the noise of the new engines is beyond me..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9N7ObkhfF8

the holden v8 is easily the best noise:D

kneemos

It's little more than a travelling marketing fair at the moment,this is what happens when commercial and marketing interests take over.
If by some chance they actually start racing again let me know.

Mike Litoris

Oafley Jones wrote: »

How anyone could prefer the noise of the new engines is beyond me..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9N7ObkhfF8

V10 for me. You kinda forget watching on TV but man alive the new engines sound brutal. That Holden V8 sounds awesome in all its gurgliness!!

_rebelkid

The V10's absolutely sing. I think if the V6's were louder, they'd be a bit like a V10 with turbo noise. Not quite the beauty of the V10, but closer than the V8.

_rebelkid

More on fuelgate from Ted Kravitz.

_rebelkid

Full Mark Webber film on Driver Preparation. Absolutely fascinating stuff.

The BBC also spoke Riccardo Ceccarelli from Formula 1 Medical about the film, and about the changes in driver prep in the 25 years he's been in the sport. The most interesting part was a test they did with 12 F1 drivers and 12 students. They used MRI to monitor the brain as they completed tasks to measure reaction times and brain use. What they found, which shocked them, was that the reaction times were the same. Exactly the same. But the difference was in "brain economy"; the F1 drivers used less of their brain to do the task than the students.