Formula 1 2014: General Discussion Thread

Jordan 199

Nurburgring set for long term F1 deal.

_rebelkid

Austrian GP Race Thread

Mitch Connor

going to be standing grid starts after safety car periods from the 2015 season.

Awesome.

Zcott

Mitch Connor wrote: »

going to be standing grid starts after safety car periods from the 2015 season.

Awesome.

That makes sense - all the drivers have gotten so good at restarts they're really boring now. Even 2x2 would have been ok.

TheChrisD

Mitch Connor wrote: »

going to be standing grid starts after safety car periods from the 2015 season.

Nonsensical. All that buildup just for for a restart, further increasing the possibility of accidents and problems immediately afterwards that could in theory bring in more yellows.

If they want to spice it up, they really should just do double-file restarts with a controlled acceleration zone.

flazio

What is that on the back of Rosberg's overalls in place of 'Mercedes Benz'?

Peanut Butter Jelly

It's a good luck message to Germany in the world cup.

Beriet Wie Nie.

Charlie-Bravo

Translates as 'Ready as ever'...2-2 draw last night.

_rebelkid

astrofluff wrote: »

Translates as 'Ready as ever'...2-2 draw last night.

Could be worse, all the "We're behind England" ads are still running, it's hilarious

Jordan 199

Sauber. Eight races in and no points. It's the first time in Saubers F1 history that they scored no points in the first eight races.

smellslikeshoes

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Sauber. Eight races in and no points. It's the first time in Saubers F1 history that they scored no points in the first eight races.

I really think the main difference between this year and last year is this year they don't have someone the calibre of the Hulk to flatter the car. Gutiérrez and Sutil are seriously mediocre in my opinion.

ZiabR

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

I really think the main difference between this year and last year is this year they don't have someone the calibre of the Hulk to flatter the car. Gutiérrez and Sutil are seriously mediocre in my opinion.

Have to agree here, no idea how Gutierrez kept his seat this year. He was terrible last year too. I know he is bringing money to the table but neither driver is capable of developing a car throughout a season, so in essence, Sauber have no idea what direction to go with the car.

Zcott

They're almost becoming fixtures down near the back of the grid, and that's a shame. It doesn't help that Toro Rosso have a great car this year, and Williams are having a fantastic year.

Whatever happened to putting Sirotkin in the car?

mickdw

OSI wrote: »

I'm starting to wonder if Sauber are just biding their time till someone makes them an offer to buy out the team. Not a big fan of Monisha either.

Wouldn't underestimate Peter sauber. I'm sure he has a plan for the future.

Arthur Beesley

mickdw wrote: »

Wouldn't underestimate Peter sauber. I'm sure he has a plan for the future.

Well he sold the team to BMW previously, but having said that, he is the reason they still exist after BMW pulled out, so fair play.

They just don't have any money - no title sponsor, most of the car bare.

ZiabR

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Well he sold the team to BMW previously, but having said that, he is the reason they still exist after BMW pulled out, so fair play.

They just don't have any money - no title sponsor, most of the car bare.

Yes, and with two under performing drivers, it becomes harder and harder to get noticed and in turn harder and harder to attract sponsors.

Customer cars anyone?

Infoanon

Zcott wrote: »

They're almost becoming fixtures down near the back of the grid, and that's a shame. It doesn't help that Toro Rosso have a great car this year, and Williams are having a fantastic year.

Whatever happened to putting Sirotkin in the car?

The Russian money has not appeared and the Ukraine situation has been a blow,I like Sauber but the lack of money and the lose of key staff don't bode well.

Bernie has been mouthing off again that he would be 'happy' if the grids were smaller. ........

Jordan 199

I think if Sauber don't get any major backing or someone to buy the team soon, they will be gone.

It looks like Caterham will be gone this season, and Sauber could well follow them.

walshb

I came across this very interesting video. One of the things that always amazed me was how the teams managed their logistics. How they got all their people and equipment into place all over the globe.

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_f1_racing/5297.html

Zcott

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Well he sold the team to BMW previously, but having said that, he is the reason they still exist after BMW pulled out, so fair play.

They just don't have any money - no title sponsor, most of the car bare.

How about we all club together for a boards sticker on the car?

mickdw

Zcott wrote: »

How about we all club together for a boards sticker on the car?

Think bigger man. It should be boards.ie title sponsor.
All that is needed is a mansoor Ijaz type figure to pull all the finding together once he manages to release it from his friends in the far east.

Jordan 199

Niki Lauda driving his old Ferrari 312T2 at the Red Bull Ring recently:

ZiabR

Great shot, that must have brought back some memories for Niki.

Zcott

Jordan 191 wrote: »

I think if Sauber don't get any major backing or someone to buy the team soon, they will be gone.

It looks like Caterham will be gone this season, and Sauber could well follow them.

Just read this and I'm not sure how accurate it is, but worth sharing anyway:

In fact, it is now rumoured that Sauber's saviour was in fact not Sirotkin's backers, but Bernie Ecclestone, who stepped in and paid all of the team's outstanding debts.

From http://www.f1zone.net/news/sirotkin-says-de-silvestro-role-a-marketing-ploy/41584/

ZiabR

Customer cars is the ONLY way this sport will survive. Bernie saved Sauber because they can't afford to allow long standing teams leave the sport on cost grounds. It is like anything in life, the richer get richer and the poorer and poorer. Sauber/Lotus/Caterham/Marussia and to some degree Force India and Williams all have VERY small budgets and are in a constant battle to find sponsorship and money every season.

The only way the smaller teams have been surviving is by bringing in more and more paid drivers of a poorer quality in order to survive in the sport and these poor drivers are only damaging the sport further.

All of the bigger teams have said customer cars would work. It is the smaller teams that are standing in the way as they want to do things for themselves. This is admirable and I can see their point of view but it will ultimately results in the small teams running out of money and exiting the sport. No one wants to see that.

I for one do not want to see F1 with sub 10 teams. The sport needs 12 teams minimum and there is room for more, but until cost is brought under control, it will never happen. Just look at the supposed new teams looking to enter the sport. They have now taken a step back to evaluate the sport until 2016. To me this raises alarm bells. They are either having a change of heart OR they are waiting for a small team to fold and buy them on the cheap.

Bernie is 83, he will not be around forever, once he goes, who will save the smaller teams... F1 will move to customer cars or the sport will fail.

Peanut Butter Jelly

What are the odds of Caterham, Lotus and Sauber not being on the grid next year in their current format ?

stevenmu

The danger with customer cars though is that it becomes a bidding war between the smaller teams. Whichever team has the most money to spend gets to buy the best car, then they beat all their competitors and get more prize/sponsorship money, then they have the most money when it comes to next bidding war. So it could easily create a self-perpetuating cycle.

At the moment, in theory at least, there is the opportunity for a team with a lower budget to innovate in ways that their richer competitors haven't thought of and beat the bigger budget teams. At the moment Force India are ahead of both Williams and McLaren, and Marussia are ahead of Sauber.

If they went the customer cars route, it would need to be regulated and controlled to prevent a small number of teams dominating.

ZiabR

stevenmu wrote: »

The danger with customer cars though is that it becomes a bidding war between the smaller teams. Whichever team has the most money to spend gets to buy the best car, then they beat all their competitors and get more prize/sponsorship money, then they have the most money when it comes to next bidding war. So it could easily create a self-perpetuating cycle.

At the moment, in theory at least, there is the opportunity for a team with a lower budget to innovate in ways that their richer competitors haven't thought of and beat the bigger budget teams. At the moment Force India are ahead of both Williams and McLaren, and Marussia are ahead of Sauber.

If they went the customer cars route, it would need to be regulated and controlled to prevent a small number of teams dominating.

Essentially all the major teams would be offering is Engine, Gearbox, Suspension and Chassis. The smaller team can then bolt on body work and wings etc, essentially developing the car as normal throughout the season.

The advantage is that the smaller team does not have to design the chassis and suspension and pay all of the money to pass the safety and crash tests.

To me, customer cars make sense and it would mean a closer grid.

Zcott

What makes customer options great is various different scenarios where someone's equipment works better at track A than track B, and vice versa. Back in the tyre war days, the Goodyears were good in the dry but the Bridgestones were great in the wet. Likewise, in the days of CART, certain chassis would work better on road courses than ovals.

With customer cars in F1, I just don't see that happening. There's not enough variety within the calendar to make that an interesting option for the fans.

The other way of looking at it is that either way the teams will be spending money. They can either buy a chassis off the shelf and go racing on a shoestring, or invest in people and develop a chassis themselves. I'd say it'd be much better for a Motorsport economy to employ designers, aero guys, suspension guys, etc, than to line someone else's pockets by buying a car ready to go.

stevenmu

logik wrote: »

Essentially all the major teams would be offering is Engine, Gearbox, Suspension and Chassis. The smaller team can then bolt on body work and wings etc, essentially developing the car as normal throughout the season.

The advantage is that the smaller team does not have to design the chassis and suspension and pay all of the money to pass the safety and crash tests.

To me, customer cars make sense and it would mean a closer grid.

Oh, my mistake, I thought it would have included pretty much the whole car. That would make it a pretty good option so IMO.

Jordan 199

Zcott, I read the article in your link and I don't think Bernie would have paid off Sauber's debts.

I think a reason for that would be because if he helped out Sauber then other teams would be asking for him to help pay off debts.

Charlie-Bravo

Agreed, Bernie denied the bail-out. Tongue in cheek: Unless there's been something underhand between Sauber and Bernie, why else would Bernie put his hand in his pocket? Separately, he can see Caterham struggling so he's happy to bring in another team to replace them albeit they won't be ready for next year. So one or two less teams next year is likely to happen and all of a sudden Bernie is saying he wouldn't mind seeing less cars on the grid. I'd say Bernie has plenty of guys with enough money for at least one season asking for entry at all the time. If you can demonstrate you'll be around for at least two I'd say you'll certainly be given a chance in F1 by Bernie.

Zcott

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Zcott, I read the article in your link and I don't think Bernie would have paid off Sauber's debts.

I think a reason for that would be because if he helped out Sauber then other teams would be asking for him to help pay off debts.

He's made payments before and I don't doubt he do it again.

ScumLord

I think the problem with modern race series is that the teams have too much information. Racing was more exciting in the past because people were guessing, they didn't know the exact wear rate of their tyres and the driver had to be the monitor.

These days teams can predict more or less what is going to happen so don't take risks where they're not almost guaranteed a return based on their predictions.

It doesn't matter what changes you make these days if the engineers have enough data, time and money they will reduce anything to a process that anyone could follow.

Drivers and teams should have just enough data to keep the driver safe and everything beyond that should be down to human intuition.

Going Strong

ScumLord wrote: »

I think the problem with modern race series is that the teams have too much information. Racing was more exciting in the past because people were guessing, they didn't know the exact wear rate of their tyres and the driver had to be the monitor.

These days teams can predict more or less what is going to happen so don't take risks where they're not almost guaranteed a return based on their predictions.

It doesn't matter what changes you make these days if the engineers have enough data, time and money they will reduce anything to a process that anyone could follow.

Drivers and teams should have just enough data to keep the driver safe and everything beyond that should be down to human intuition.

I recall a comment by Patrick Head, sometime in the mid '90's, where he said that, ideally, they'd implement all sorts of electronic monitors and fail-safes in order to mitigate against the fallible human behind the wheel. Which is pretty much where we are now.

Infoanon

Peanut Butter Jelly wrote: »

What are the odds of Caterham, Lotus and Sauber not being on the grid next year in their current format ?

You could add Marussia and Force India to that list, while Williams are not swimming in finances either.

The fundamental issue is the unfair way that the monies in F1 are divided out.

There was a rule in F1 that the Big 4 must have a 3rd driver if grid numbers fall to a certain level - As for Bernie saving Sauber, normally the mechanism is that TV monies are paid in advance to a struggling team.

F1 faces the perfect storm - TV numbers down, fewer sponsors with Teams (as opposed to FOM),rising costs.

Zcott

Infoanon wrote: »

F1 faces the perfect storm - TV numbers down, fewer sponsors with Teams (as opposed to FOM),rising costs.

Although TV revenues are probably up, so FOM will be making a handy profit from it. The teams can harness that money to make up for the sponsor shortfall.

Still, a cost cap would really be a good idea if it could be enforced properly.

Infoanon

Zcott wrote: »

Although TV revenues are probably up, so FOM will be making a handy profit from it. The teams can harness that money to make up for the sponsor shortfall.
.

The teams don't get that benefit and any distributions are skewed in favour of the Big 4.

To make matters worse FOM are getting all the big sponsorship deals - Rolex, Pirelli etc , Mclaren dont have a title sponsor this season says a lot about the state of F1.

Longer term what happens when Alcohol and Energy drink sponsorship is banned - action is needed.

Going Strong

Infoanon wrote: »

The teams don't get that benefit and any distributions are skewed in favour of the Big 4.

To make matters worse FOM are getting all the big sponsorship deals - Rolex, Pirelli etc , Mclaren dont have a title sponsor this season says a lot about the state of F1.

Longer term what happens when Alcohol and Energy drink sponsorship is banned - action is needed.

Yup. FOM can guarantee that a company's name will feature on the screen if they choose trackside advertising rather than on a car. Which team was blocked from appearing on the TV coverage a few years back, wasn't it Minardi? And did Marussia get blocked as well or merely threatened with it? That's the power FOM have over the teams.

Force India were barely shown at I think Bahrain last year during qualifying.

Jordan 199

Deleted User wrote: »

Force India were barely shown at I think Bahrain last year during qualifying.

That would have been 2012. Force India decided not to take part in the second practice session so as a result of that they got little to no coverage in qualifying.

ZiabR

Some information about rule changes here for the 2015 and 2016 season.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/06/26/fia-confirms-new-2015-rules-including-standing-restarts/

Also, Rosberg withholding information from Hamilton, but to me, this is nothing new and makes complete sense.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/06/27/f1-fanatic-round-2706/

Zcott

I would be surprised if Lewis was sharing all info with Nico, too. Didn't he use an unapproved engine map in Bahrain?

Myrddin

Zcott wrote: »

I would be surprised if Lewis was sharing all info with Nico, too. Didn't he use an unapproved engine map in Bahrain?

I think Nico also used that map the race before. These two not sharing things with each other can't be considered news, they're both fighting for the title, why would they be sharing things?

SnowDrifts

Just a heads up for anyone not following Craig Scarborough on twitter - He is posting some great detail photos of some classic F1 cars today including lots of the Jordan 191.

https://twitter.com/ScarbsF1

Going Strong

Reports that Caterham has been sold. No great surprise there after Fernandez' outburst after Monaco and Canada.

http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.com/2014/06/27/fernandes-hints-at-caterham-sale-saying-f1-hasnt-worked/

smellslikeshoes

Going Strong wrote: »

Reports that Caterham has been sold. No great surprise there after Fernandez' outburst after Monaco and Canada.

http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.com/2014/06/27/fernandes-hints-at-caterham-sale-saying-f1-hasnt-worked/

What makes it even more interesting is these two tweets by Will Buxton. https://twitter.com/willbuxton/status/482485482337865728 https://twitter.com/willbuxton/status/482485858977980416

Jordan 199

I wouldn't be surprised if Flavio Briatore purchased the Caterham team.

Zcott

Could be Brawn?

smellslikeshoes

Zcott wrote: »

Could be Brawn?

That's where most of the speculation about the tweets has been centered on.
I wouldn't rule out it being a manufacturer either, someone like Honda maybe.