Formula 1 2014: General Discussion Thread

Donnelly117

Zcott wrote: »

I actually like the 18" wheels. Am I the only one?

They take a bit of getting used to but they're definitely not the ugliest part of the car anyway :pac:

vectra

Looks as though part 2 of the season could hot up if all of this goes ahead.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-advantages-set-to-end

Myrddin

I'd imagine that the Red Bull & Ferrari FRIC systems are every bit as effective as Mercedes' no? Limiting hybrid power flow, they seem desperate to 'liven' up this season don't they....I thought this season has been the most exciting since 2010 personally, & doesn't need any livening up.

counterlock

vectra wrote: »

You know this because?

I know this because what you are talking about is exactly what happened in 2007, 2008 and 2009. Ferrari built the car around Kimi and Massa beat him out the door for the majority of that time.

In his championship year, Raikonnen only passed Massa out in the standings with 4 races to go. You could argue that Kimi lucked into the title that year, with Hamilton crashing in the pitlane and Alonso forcing him wide in Brazil, as you could argue that Hamilton prevented Massa from winning a title by a great deal of luck too.

But if you want to just deal with the facts, Massa blew him out of the water in 2008 and was beating him right up until his accident in Hungary.

vectra

How in the name of God can you say Ferrari built the 2007 car around Kimi?
He only joined them then.

counterlock

vectra wrote: »

How in the name of God can you say Ferrari built the 2007 car around Kimi?
He only joined them then.

Fair enough. What about 08 and 09?

Myrddin

I'm not sure I buy into this 'cars built around drivers' a whole lot. Sure, it's an advantage, but surely not a massive one. Look at Vettel, that Red Bull is arguably built around him, but he's not getting as much from it as Ricciardo. Kimi, like Vettel, is an F1 World Champion, the creme de la creme...you can only blame the cars so much. They are both under-performing.

Mike Litoris

Zcott wrote: »

I actually like the 18" wheels. Am I the only one?

I've checked out a few forums and most seem to like them. I dont like them at all. The Renault looks like an old wagon.:P

Andrew76

Myrddin wrote: »

I'm not sure I buy into this 'cars built around drivers' a whole lot. Sure, it's an advantage, but surely not a massive one. Look at Vettel, that Red Bull is arguably built around him, but he's not getting as much from it as Ricciardo. Kimi, like Vettel, is an F1 World Champion, the creme de la creme...you can only blame the cars so much. They are both under-performing.

Ultimately the team is trying to build the fastest car they can, but if there's a clear no 1 driver (contractually or performance wise) then I would imagine they would try and get the car to suit that driver more where possible.

Not sure I'd agree about this year's RBR being built around Vettel though - I think if anything all the rule changes have nullified any advantages he might have had from previous years. Still, he hasn't adapted as well as Ricciardo.

Myrddin

Andrew76 wrote: »

Ultimately the team is trying to build the fastest car they can, but if there's a clear no 1 driver (contractually or performance wise) then I would imagine they would try and get the car to suit that driver more where possible.

I agree, I'm not denying it doesn't happen...I suppose in a clear number 1/number 2 situation is has to happen. What I am saying though, is that the differences can't be so big, that at this stage in the season, that car setup can't give each driver the feel of the car they like.

When we say, 'the car is built around Alonso', what is it we are saying exactly? It's not ride height, rake, brake bias, suspension settings, steering rate, tyre pressures, pedal positions, steering wheel position, camber, castor, toe, aero settings etc, as they are all adjustable. What is it exactly that Kimi can't get used to, that has been built around Alonso?

Not sure I'd agree about this year's RBR being built around Vettel though - I think if anything all the rule changes have nullified any advantages he might have had from previous years. Still, he hasn't adapted as well as Ricciardo.

Perhaps. But while the rule changes have certainly shaken things up, this years Red Bull is still an evolution of last years car, & so on. That's kinda what I'm saying about this this whole 'car built around x driver' argument...is it really that big of a thing that can't be fixed with car setup?

I like the bigger wheels, not all teams will have them so garish. :P Much lower profile tyres will pose a mechanical challenge for teams which is nice.

SnowDrifts

I was sort of liking the new wheels until I saw this photo....

Myrddin

What is the reason for testing the increased rim/tyre sizes?

mickdw

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I like the bigger wheels, not all teams will have them so garish. :P Much lower profile tyres will pose a mechanical challenge for teams which is nice.

It should make life very much easier for the teams. Currently they have alot of movement in the tyre which is not as controllable as suspension movement. Yes there will be an adjustment period but anyone would go for the low profile setup given the choice.

Donnelly117

SnowDrifts wrote: »

I was sort of liking the new wheels until I saw this photo....

That cars hub was designed for the 13 inch rim though... Surely when these become standard they will have a much bigger hub to fill the see through bits in...

vectra

counterlock wrote: »

Fair enough. What about 08 and 09?

Cant answer for 08.

But what bout 2009?

Does the model F60 spring to mind?

That thing was a wheelbarrow.
Massa had some sort of handle on it until he got knocked out by the spring to the head incident.

Ferrari then had no option only to turn their attention to Kimis needs.
Do you remember how suddenly he was on it again?

Ah, I hear you say. Kimi was on his way out then and suddenly woke up.

Nonsence.

How many drivers did Ferrari put in massas car only to looklike complete novices on track while Kimi went and won a race and probably collected more points than anyone else for the remainder of that season..

In 2010 Ferrari decided to go pullrod design when most if not all other teams dumped the idea.

Kimi was gone at this stage.

Alonso can cope with an understeering car while Kimi likes a pointy car.

However. One of the disadvantages of a pull-rod system is the limited amount of adjustment that can be made to the car’s handling due to difficulty accessing certain areas of the car. For example, in the case of a rear pull-rod, you have to remove the floor as well as the gearbox to fine tune the rear end because there’s simply no space to operate around the springs.

Kimi came back in 2012 to Lotus to a pushrod car that responded to slight adjustments on each track.
Look how Kimi shone.

2014 Kimi comes to Ferrari to Pullrod system.
Look at the result.

Ferrari feel they can adopt the car to suit his style, while it will not be 100% for him, it will help him.

Lets see for ourselves if both drivers are with them next season in equal machinery to their likes.
After all. Alonso did admit to not being the quickest driver on track. Whereas as Kimi would be one of the quickest.

By the way

I am not a Kimbot not an Alonso Hater.

I just feel credit where credit is due and a bit of understanding where it is not the drivers fault.


I suppose we could all say how Vettel is suddenly useless and Ricciardo is superior judging by the results this season.

However.
I think we can all say this is not true.

dloob

mickdw wrote: »

Front / Rear interconnected suspension to be banned from Germany on unless all teams agree to leave it.
This could make things interesting.

Well Charlie is of the opinion they may be illegal.
I wonder what Merc will do?
They could still run the system and make the FIA disqualify the cars along with all the negative publicity that will bring.

ScumLord

OSI wrote: »

A combination of being more relevant to road cars, and cutting costs I believe. Read something about it being considered a joke that the so called pinnacle of motorsport is running wheels that are 13" in size when your average road car has at least 17.

I hadn't heard about these new wheels. Is it just a trial at the moment?

They could certainly fit much bigger brakes into that wheel space. Low profile looks weird on a race car though.

smellslikeshoes

They don't look near as bad with a picture of it on the move I think.

Frank Bullitt

Zcott

Now that looks great. Much nicer. Anyone who watches WEC or Le Mans will have gotten used to large wheels and skinny tyres.

losthorizon

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/28230500

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNl_zbhjbiw

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

Cant answer for 08.

But what bout 2009?

Does the model F60 spring to mind?

That thing was a wheelbarrow.
Massa had some sort of handle on it until he got knocked out by the spring to the head incident.

Ferrari then had no option only to turn their attention to Kimis needs.
Do you remember how suddenly he was on it again?

Ah, I hear you say. Kimi was on his way out then and suddenly woke up.

Nonsence.

How many drivers did Ferrari put in massas car only to looklike complete novices on track while Kimi went and won a race and probably collected more points than anyone else for the remainder of that season..

In 2010 Ferrari decided to go pullrod design when most if not all other teams dumped the idea.

Kimi was gone at this stage.

Alonso can cope with an understeering car while Kimi likes a pointy car.

However. One of the disadvantages of a pull-rod system is the limited amount of adjustment that can be made to the car’s handling due to difficulty accessing certain areas of the car. For example, in the case of a rear pull-rod, you have to remove the floor as well as the gearbox to fine tune the rear end because there’s simply no space to operate around the springs.

Kimi came back in 2012 to Lotus to a pushrod car that responded to slight adjustments on each track.
Look how Kimi shone.

2014 Kimi comes to Ferrari to Pullrod system.
Look at the result.

Ferrari feel they can adopt the car to suit his style, while it will not be 100% for him, it will help him.

Lets see for ourselves if both drivers are with them next season in equal machinery to their likes.
After all. Alonso did admit to not being the quickest driver on track. Whereas as Kimi would be one of the quickest.

By the way

I am not a Kimbot not an Alonso Hater.

I just feel credit where credit is due and a bit of understanding where it is not the drivers fault.


I suppose we could all say how Vettel is suddenly useless and Ricciardo is superior judging by the results this season.

However.
I think we can all say this is not true.

You would make a great politician with stuff like that.

Giving credit where credit is due, would be essentially doing what most F1 pundits and ex drivers do, and give Alonso the right out praise he deserves, there is a reason that he was the team principles driver of the year in 2012.

vectra

Politician or not.

I did say Alonso is doing a good job.
But I dont see how and why people knock Kimi for something totally beyond his control,
But as they say.
Onwards and upwards and look forward to a decent car next year.

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

Politician or not.

I did say Alonso is doing a good job.
But I dont see how and why people knock Kimi for something totally beyond his control,
But as they say.
Onwards and upwards and look forward to a decent car next year.

I would hope Ferrari get the job done, but in saying that, it remains to be seen.

As for Kimi, I would expect more from a former world champion on the money he is, regardless of how the car is built or designed.

Alonso deals with the cards that he is dealt, and does whatever needs be. Kimi just doesn't seem to have the extra edge that Alonso has when it comes to this.

christy c

I personally don't think Kimi is in the same league as Alonso and am not surprised by this year. I dont think he will match/beat Alonso next year regardless of what Ferrari do with the car

TheChrisD

Gintonious wrote: »

The only thing that really bothers me about this demo run is the fact the rear wheel rims are a bit more inset compared to the front. Just looks a bit weird when directly compared to the LMPs and the IndyCars. But that's just an aesthetic thing and a personal preference.

Sitec

TheChrisD wrote: »

The only thing that really bothers me about this demo run is the fact the rear wheel rims are a bit more inset compared to the front. Just looks a bit weird when directly compared to the LMPs and the IndyCars. But that's just an aesthetic thing and a personal preference.

It looks like a lot of the back tyre isn't in contact with the track.

Jordan 199

Gintonious wrote: »

I would hope Ferrari get the job done, but in saying that, it remains to be seen.

As for Kimi, I would expect more from a former world champion on the money he is, regardless of how the car is built or designed.

Alonso deals with the cards that he is dealt, and does whatever needs be. Kimi just doesn't seem to have the extra edge that Alonso has when it comes to this.

I think the new Ferrari team boss Marco Mattiacci will be the man to put the team back in the right direction.

I was watching him being interviewed by Eddie Jordan on the BBC at the weekend and he was very straightforward and to the point.

He will be needed to be given time and see in what ways he changes the team.

Frank Bullitt

Jordan 191 wrote: »

I think the new Ferrari team boss Marco Mattiacci will be the man to put the team back in the right direction.

I was watching him being interviewed by Eddie Jordan on the BBC at the weekend and he was very straightforward and to the point.

He will be needed to be given time and see in what ways he changes the team.

Well rumour today is that their main engine designer was fired today, and that they doubled their offer to Brawn also. If they are to turn it around for next year, they will need to recruit lots of new faces.

Donnelly117

TheChrisD wrote: »

The only thing that really bothers me about this demo run is the fact the rear wheel rims are a bit more inset compared to the front. Just looks a bit weird when directly compared to the LMPs and the IndyCars. But that's just an aesthetic thing and a personal preference.

Im guessing this is to maintain the correct gap between the chassis and the tyre. The current wheels are the same its just less noticeable cause the rim is smaller...

Cookie_Monster

will this make wheels heavier or lighter overall? How heavy is the rubber compared to the alloy?
In term of when a wheel comes off a car and bouces round if it is heavier surely that's more of a safety risk to anyone, especially given the general inability to ensure wheels stay on cars in the last few years.

Myrddin

Probably a silly/dumb question, but given larger wheels have a lower rpm than smaller wheels given like for like output from the engine...will these larger wheels make the cars any slower?

Zcott

From Joe Saward's blog:

Tests show that as wheel/tyre combinations get bigger, acceleration and fuel economy suffer often quite dramatically with a 10 percent drop in fuel economy between using 15-inch rims and 19-inch rims.

The key technical advantage of an 18-inch tyre is a stiffer sidewall that helps maintain the structural rigidity of the tyre and also makes it easier for the tyre to maintain a constant pressure – as there is less actual air inside the tyre.

The reality is that if the wheel size changed, the cars would need to be completely redesigned because of the impact of the tyres in the airflow around the cars. The cars are generally changed from year to year so this is not necessarily a problem but it will mean that the philosophy of design will change as engineers try to find the downforce that will be lost with such a change.

“They are more reactive and nervous and on top of that you lose a lot of aero,” Pic said. “It is not even like you are on the aero you use at Monza, it is even less. The combination means you are five or six seconds off the pace.”

Going Strong

So, a typical F1 response to 'fix' something nobody realised was broke in the first place leading to yet more cost increases?

F**k me but they're a bunch of clowns all the same.

mickdw

mickdw wrote: »

It should make life very much easier for the teams. Currently they have alot of movement in the tyre which is not as controllable as suspension movement. Yes there will be an adjustment period but anyone would go for the low profile setup given the choice.

More predictable maybe but it'll mean that the suspension will have to be softer to compensate and that will present a new challenge of marrying the suspension to the aero demands.

Frank Bullitt

I guess when you compare to LeMans LMP1 cars, who use similar, their wheels are covered so they can compensate for that.

THey might look interesting on the F1 cars, but if it were to knock 5-6 seconds off the times, that would be huge bull****.

ScumLord

Going Strong wrote: »

So, a typical F1 response to 'fix' something nobody realised was broke in the first place leading to yet more cost increases?

There are always going to be development costs in F1, we don't know that it wouldn't be cheaper for all the manufacturers to start from square one and have the opportunity to come up with a better system than their better funded rivals, over trying to beat their rivals who might already have found a good solution meaning the other teams are spending (maybe in vain) trying to catch up.

Guessing a change in gear ratios would compensate for most of the deficit would it not?

Sitec

Deleted User wrote: »

Guessing a change in gear ratios would compensate for most of the deficit would it not?

Is the tyre and wheel combo actually larger than present?

Sitec

Sitec wrote: »

Is the tyre and wheel combo actually larger than present?

Ah good point. Once the overall weight is kept down (and with carbon fibre it should be) there shouldn't be as much of an effect would there?

Sitec

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah good point. Once the overall weight is kept down (and with carbon fibre it should be) there shouldn't be as much of an effect would there?

There would be no difference once the circumference is the same, it's really hard to judge if they are larger though. They look much bigger put probably aren't.

With the materials used in F1 it's hard to call which one is lighter. I know there appears to be a lot less rubber on the new combo but there's also a lot less air!

I'm confused!

losthorizon

Oops, well this went wrong.

http://thisisf1.com/2014/07/10/2014-german-gp-ticket-discount-offer-backfires/

guyfo

Sitec wrote: »

There would be no difference once the circumference is the same, it's really hard to judge if they are larger though. They look much bigger put probably aren't.

With the materials used in F1 it's hard to call which one is lighter. I know there appears to be a lot less rubber on the new combo but there's also a lot less air!

I'm confused!

The 13 inch rims with high profile tyres act as a part of the suspension, there is very little travel in an f1 car and the give of the tyres counts for a fair portion of it.

Putting low profile tyres and big rims on an f1 car may seem simple but it would require a complete redesign of the suspension.

Bigger rims would mean more turbulence from the spokes messing up airflow, especially when the car is running small brakes designed to fit inside 13 inch rims.

Plus the teams would be starting from scratch in terms of setup.

That's why we are seeing lap-times 5s slower.

earlyapex

They are 30mm larger in diameter and 4kg heavier.

Donnelly117

earlyapex wrote: »

They are 30mm larger in diameter and 4kg heavier.

4kg per wheel? :eek:

_rebelkid

Donnelly117 wrote: »

4kg per wheel? :eek:

Magnesium is heavier than Nitrogen...

Donnelly117

_rebelkid wrote: »

Magnesium is heavier than Nitrogen...

Really? Are you some kind of fancy scientist?
Still, it seems like a lot of weight to be adding to an F1 car! Especially considering the drama over drivers starving themselves to keep the weight off for the start of the season because they refused to up the weight limit...

_rebelkid

Donnelly117 wrote: »

Really? Are you some kind of fancy scientist?
Still, it seems like a lot of weight to be adding to an F1 car! Especially considering the drama over drivers starving themselves to keep the weight off for the start of the season because they refused to up the weight limit...

Yep, I have a piece of paper that says so. Wrote it in crayon....

It's a load of unnecessary weight. It's an extra 25 inches of spoke length overall (2.5inches per spoke, 10 spokes per wheel) per wheel, with 4 wheels and thick spokes, it's a huge amount of extra mass, for no real gain. Personally, I think 18's are too big. Looks cartoonish. 16's would look much better, and wouldn't cost as much to performance, and to produce. At least they won't be ready until 2017...

vectra

Why dont they use Carbon fibre wheels?