Formula 1 2014: General Discussion Thread

ScumLord

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Informing a driver about his fuel consumption and how to manage his pace - can the driver see their fuel usage? Will it be easy or impossibly to manage over an entire race if the pit aren't allowed to talk to you about it?

I'm sure they do and if they didn't it wouldn't be hard to implement something along the same lines as a lap time delta.

I'm all for reducing the amount of help the pits gives during the race. It should be up to the driver not however many engineers they have in the pits and back at the factory. It's making races boring because they predict everything and treat it like a business decision to accept loses. Most drivers would try catching the guy in front but are so often told there's no point just take whatever points they have and bring the car home, even if they know he could catch the car in front and possibly get an overtake.

I'd prefer they stopped most communications but they'd have to reduce the punishments for drivers by maybe allowing them more spare parts over the season. The drivers won't be able to manage the life span of their engine without the pits.

Sterling Archer

Interesting decision about radio communications.
We have to remember they always tinker with rules until they get a happy medium

@lightning your Mondello link is a 404

Jordan 199

20 races for 2015 F1 calendar.

Abu Dhabi last again FFS!

Mitch Connor

ScumLord wrote: »

I'm sure they do and if they didn't it wouldn't be hard to implement something along the same lines as a lap time delta.

I'm all for reducing the amount of help the pits gives during the race. It should be up to the driver not however many engineers they have in the pits and back at the factory. It's making races boring because they predict everything and treat it like a business decision to accept loses. Most drivers would try catching the guy in front but are so often told there's no point just take whatever points they have and bring the car home, even if they know he could catch the car in front and possibly get an overtake.

I'd prefer they stopped most communications but they'd have to reduce the punishments for drivers by maybe allowing them more spare parts over the season. The drivers won't be able to manage the life span of their engine without the pits.

I don't like the drivers getting advise on how to drive the lap - but when you have such complicated and temperamental machinery I find it odd they won't be allowed to discuss how to correct issues with the car on the fly, issues affecting the general drivability of the car as opposed to how to take corner 10 better. Like when we have seen drivers saying the read end is sliding all over the place, or similar, and they get told to move the break bias in some direction - I don't see the issue with that as it is the car is kinda broken rather than the driver being unable to keep up with someone.

Gillespy

Radio is part of show now. It's an insight into the driver, the real driver, not the one put up to face the media afterwards with his polished answers. It shows the complexities of the sport and how it really is a team sport. If they feel some of the messages are damaging the image of F1, don't broadcast them.

Let's take the last race, Rosberg refusing info regarding the gap to Hamilton, foreshadowed him buckling under pressure. Rosberg being told to save fuel blows his image of being the thinking man's driver to smithereens, he is always heavier on fuel than Lewis. Hamilton ignoring advice to wait out Rosberg's fuel saving laps showed his killer, racer instinct. It adds another dimension to the title fight.

SnowDrifts

Gillespy wrote: »

Radio is part of show now. It's an insight into the driver, the real driver, not the one put up to face the media afterwards with his polished answers. It shows the complexities of the sport and how it really is a team sport. If they feel some of the messages are damaging the image of F1, don't broadcast them.

Let's take the last race, Rosberg refusing info regarding the gap to Hamilton, foreshadowed him buckling under pressure. Rosberg being told to save fuel blows his image of being the thinking man's driver to smithereens, he is always heavier on fuel than Lewis. Hamilton ignoring advice to wait out Rosberg's fuel saving laps showed his killer, racer instinct. It adds another dimension to the title fight.

Nearly all of your posts of late are "Lewis is the best, Nico sucks". Perhaps start a thread on the topic if you feel so strongly.

Back on topic, delighted to see the radio ban on driving advice. It was becoming annoying. Also, perhaps a reason for it's implementation was the negative connotations surrounding a message like "You need to save fuel, don't push".

Mitch Connor

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Nearly all of your posts of late are "Lewis is the best, Nico sucks". Perhaps start a thread on the topic if you feel so strongly.

Back on topic, delighted to see the radio ban on driving advice. It was becoming annoying. Also, perhaps a reason for it's implementation was the negative connotations surrounding a message like "You need to save fuel, don't push".

Rosbergs request of the pit last week for advise on his basic driving style was a killer for me.

I've no problem with anyone asking about their fuel, the time to driver in front or behind, or how they can fix a balance issue in the car. Thats asking about stuff forced by complexities of the cars or irritating regulations.

I do have a problem with them asking how to take a corner better, or where they are lacking on the track. Thats driving craft, imo.

Myrddin

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Like when we have seen drivers saying the read end is sliding all over the place, or similar, and they get told to move the break bias in some direction - I don't see the issue with that as it is the car is kinda broken rather than the driver being unable to keep up with someone.

I wouldn't describe issues like that as the car being 'broken', but instead, not ideally set up (assuming nothing is physically broken of course). If you think back to bygone eras where the pit wall had a much lesser influence on the driver & his actions...it basically left these solutions up to the driver. It allowed skilled & talented drivers to shine, as they could often out drive a problem, as opposed to moving a dial that an engineer has instructed to do. It was better for the viewers, to look at drivers maybe nursing an issue, yet making gains. The ultimate example would be Senna at Sao Paulo with the gearbox issue. Now obviously that couldn't happen today, but the point holds I think.

Less radio comms & handholding can only be a good thing. If there's an actual issue with the car (given the era we're in of engine mapping, torque settings, differential settings, etc) fair enough. But telling drivers where their team mate is gaining/losing, use this mode now, that mode then...I could do without. Most of the steering wheels have big huge displays now, put real time fuel info there & let the driver worry about it.

Gillespy

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Nearly all of your posts of late are "Lewis is the best, Nico sucks". Perhaps start a thread on the topic if you feel so strongly.

As is my right. I explained how it added another layer to the title battle between them, how is that off topic?

How enforceable is it going to be is another issue.

ScumLord

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I don't like the drivers getting advise on how to drive the lap - but when you have such complicated and temperamental machinery I find it odd they won't be allowed to discuss how to correct issues with the car on the fly, issues affecting the general drivability of the car as opposed to how to take corner 10 better. Like when we have seen drivers saying the read end is sliding all over the place, or similar, and they get told to move the break bias in some direction - I don't see the issue with that as it is the car is kinda broken rather than the driver being unable to keep up with someone.

The driver should and probably does know how to adjust the brake balance, they are adjusting brake balance on preference throughout the race but now they are depending on the pit to give them exact details based on their data rather than the driver feeling it out themselves.

If a part of the car is going to fail the team should be able to contact the driver and tell him to retire. Maybe outside of that they get to make a restricted amount of tips to the driver.

antodeco

Jordan 191 wrote: »

20 races for 2015 F1 calendar.

Abu Dhabi last again FFS!

Purely from a logistical point of view, is there any reason why Canada is bang in the middle of European Races?

Zcott

antodeco wrote: »

Purely from a logistical point of view, is there any reason why Canada is bang in the middle of European Races?

I think it's weather related.

Also, I imagine Abu Dhabi paid a lot of money to be the season closer.

SilverScreen

Jordan 191 wrote: »

20 races for 2015 F1 calendar.

Abu Dhabi last again FFS!

I take it that's India and New Jersey finished.

Oblomov

The radio as such, outside assistance was banned during the Mansell era because Honda were "adjusting" engine setting to prolong engine life and adjust fuel consimption. Mansell screamed that Honda had turned the power down costing him the race.

Just another way of getting round the original bam. Tell the driver to make the adjustment.

Not before time.

ZiabR

SilverScreen wrote: »

I take it that's India and New Jersey finished.

I would imagine this is the case alright. Shame.

Ghost Train

Oblomov wrote: »

The radio as such, outside assistance was banned during the Mansell era because Honda were "adjusting" engine setting to prolong engine life and adjust fuel consimption. Mansell screamed that Honda had turned the power down costing him the race.

Just another way of getting round the original bam. Tell the driver to make the adjustment.

Not before time.

I thought the new rule was just something to stop telling them things like "try a wider line in turn 9" or "your teammate is is braking later into turn 6" or Nico asking the team "Tell me how to drive the car"

I have a feeling they can still recommend what engine setting or knob to twist on the steering wheel? but maybe not

rule reads as follows on one report

The regulation which states that "the driver must drive the car alone and unaided" will be the vehicle for ensuring team's comply with the rule. "No radio conversation from pit to driver may include any information that is related to the performance of the car or driver," Whiting's message read.

Infoanon

Ghost Train wrote: »

I thought the new rule was just something to stop telling them things like "try a wider line in turn 9" or "your teammate is is braking later into turn 6" or Nico asking the team "Tell me how to drive the car"

I have a feeling they can still recommend what engine setting or knob to twist on the steering wheel? but maybe not

rule reads as follows on one report

The FIA have been clear that any advice about engine, tyres, gearbox etc will be tolerated so eg telling the driver to heat the brakes on the formation lap is now prohibited.

Toto Wolff is of the opinion that the rule shall be difficult to implement.

What does not appear to be banned is sending messages that would appear on the steering wheel....

Ghost Train

Infoanon wrote: »

What does not appear to be banned is sending messages that would appear on the steering wheel....

I think this is already banned under the rules of not adjusting any settings remotely or sending data

some reports carry this extra bit of the FIA statement

"FIA should also remind you that data transmission from pit to car is specifically prohibited by Article 8.5.2 of the F1 technical regulations."

There does still seem to be room to offer pit stop strategy advice and safety information... so maybe in a similar case to Canada I drivers could be advised on adjust brake bias to help manage a brake situation

I just wonder about will they still be able to advice on settings to help car reliability under the guise of it's for safety of car and driver, maybe thats why implementing would be difficult

wobbles

I think this will be impossible to police it. No team will know what they are allowed to say so will just say it anyway and deal with the fallout later. That will give them the time to make up a reason for appeal.

One way around it would be to have a set number of radio transmissions to the driver over a race for non safety stuff

Daniel S

wobbles wrote: »

I think this will be impossible to police it. No team will know what they are allowed to say so will just say it anyway and deal with the fallout later. That will give them the time to make up a reason for appeal.

One way around it would be to have a set number of radio transmissions to the driver over a race for non safety stuff

Best suggestion I've heard yet!

Going Strong

wobbles wrote: »

I think this will be impossible to police it. No team will know what they are allowed to say so will just say it anyway and deal with the fallout later. That will give them the time to make up a reason for appeal.

One way around it would be to have a set number of radio transmissions to the driver over a race for non safety stuff

I'd say it's the usual F1 thing of the FIA knowing what they want to outlaw but can't come up with a wording that covers everything. I'd go with them wanting to get rid of the 'hand-holding' messages where certain drivers are being guided through the race lap by lap or even corner by corner. At the minute they're trying to scare the teams into playing it safe in the hopes that they police themselves.

christy c

New rules have been clarified:

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2014/9/16349.html

I'm looking forward to this, the starts could get particularly interesting- info on burn outs and clutch bite point settings no longer allowed

christy c

OSI wrote: »

http://www.f1today.net/en/news/vettel-to-be-announced-by-ferrari-today-for-2015

I wonder how legit that is. Very interesting decision for all concerned if it is true.

Well it would be a shock, but if true we will know later today

PopePalpatine

Anyone willing to bet on Alonso for 2015?

muckwarrior

Strikes me as bad timing for Alonso. With Newey taking a back seat I can't see Red Bull returning to dominance any time soon.

Infoanon

muckwarrior wrote: »

Strikes me as bad timing for Alonso. With Newey taking a back seat I can't see Red Bull returning to dominance any time soon.

It will take a lot longer for Ferrari to return to winning ways - Seb has time on his side- Alonso does not.

flazio

If I were Ferrari, I'd be chasing RIC, not VET.

ScumLord

Doesn't seem like the right move for Vettel, although Alonso and Vettel would have made an interesting team. It's seems foolish for Ferrari to trade the one driver that's been consistent in their car, they could end up going down a few places in the constructors without Alonso.

Would definitely like to see how much the Ferrari car has been holding him back though.

Frank Bullitt

Can't see it happening.

djimi

Id be very surprised if Vettel decided to join Ferrari; that lump of a yolk looks a very long way from being competative and its hard to see that changing any time soon.

I suppose the appeal for Vettel might be to repeat what Schumacher achieved in making Ferrari a force again, and as Infanon said he has time on his side, but it would be a huge gamble that he isnt going to spend the next 2-3 seasons competing at the lower end of the points while he watches Alonso challenging for wins in what used to be his seat.

LEIN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOsaAp822xk

vectra

ScumLord wrote: »

Doesn't seem like the right move for Vettel, although Alonso and Vettel would have made an interesting team. It's seems foolish for Ferrari to trade the one driver that's been consistent in their car, they could end up going down a few places in the constructors without Alonso.

Would definitely like to see how much the Ferrari car has been holding him back though.

Wasnt Kimi one of the most if not the most consistant over the 2 previous seasons?
why?
Because the car although mot the best out there suited his style.

Same goes for Alonso. The car is more suited to his style.

I wonder if this was next season and the tables were turned.
Would the same be said for Kimi?

christy c

vectra wrote: »

Wasnt Kimi one of the most if not the most consistant over the 2 previous seasons?
why?
Because the car although mot the best out there suited his style.

Same goes for Alonso. The car is more suited to his style.

I wonder if this was next season and the tables were turned.
Would the same be said for Kimi?

Well Kimi is consistent this year as well, consistently bad

Myrddin

The thing with Alonso is, he's consistent in bad cars, & consistent in good cars. He does seem to have an ability to make the car work for him, rather than having to suit the car. But even with that ability, there's only so much he can do in the Ferrari. I think Vettel having the time on his side to go to Ferrari & start afresh is a good point.

Frank Bullitt

Alonso is able to drive the wheels off any car, he is known in the paddock for see whatever the cars behaviour is and adapting to it.

counterlock

vectra wrote: »

Wasnt Kimi one of the most if not the most consistant over the 2 previous seasons?
why?
Because the car although mot the best out there suited his style.

Same goes for Alonso. The car is more suited to his style.

I wonder if this was next season and the tables were turned.
Would the same be said for Kimi?

Not this again

vectra

christy c wrote: »

Well Kimi is consistent this year as well, consistently bad

And you honestly think he has forgotten how to drive over one winter? :rolleyes:

vectra

counterlock wrote: »

Not this again

:D

Zcott

There's really quite two few questions that need answered before we know if it's a good move for either:

Can Vettel motivate Ferrari?
Are Red Bull finishing a winning streak and sinking into the midfield?

Vettel will gain a lot of respect if he wins the title in another car and takes Ferrari back to the top. But they don't seem to know what they're doing over there and it could be a few years before the car is capable of challenging for wins, especially as we seem to be entering a Mercedes era.

Red Bull have done fantastically well over the last few years but with Newey stepping back, it could all start to unravel. Alonso will be hoping there's a few years of competitiveness left in the team so he can get another title soon, before both he and the team run out of steam.

zombieHanalei

vectra wrote: »

And you honestly think he has forgotten how to drive over one winter? :rolleyes:

Grosjean had the upper hand on Kimi in the final third of last season too after a year and a half of Kimi being fairly comfortable against him. Kimi has been off his best for over a year now, not just this season.

Forgotten to drive? Obviously not.

But I don't recall such a consistent drop in form from a driver since Damon Hill in 1999. I wonder whether Kimi's heart is really in it anymore. Hate saying that because I'm a big fan of the guy.

christy c

vectra wrote: »

And you honestly think he has forgotten how to drive over one winter? :rolleyes:

No I just think he was overrated over many winters

greedygoblin

Grand Prix: The Killer Years is on BBC4 now. Only about 20 minutes left. It's on at 1:30 am again if anyone wants to record it.

djimi

greedygoblin wrote: »

Grand Prix: The Killer Years is on BBC4 now. Only about 20 minutes left. It's on at 1:30 am again if anyone wants to record it.

Its also on YouTube in full (or was a few weeks back). Excellent documentary; really makes you realise how little they valued safety and the lives of the drivers back in those days.

greedygoblin

zombieHanalei wrote: »

Grosjean had the upper hand on Kimi in the final third of last season too after a year and a half of Kimi being fairly comfortable against him. Kimi has been off his best for over a year now, not just this season.

Forgotten to drive? Obviously not.

But I don't recall such a consistent drop in form from a driver since Damon Hill in 1999. I wonder whether Kimi's heart is really in it anymore. Hate saying that because I'm a big fan of the guy.

I think Kimi's last few months at Lotus weren't so rosy between him and the management/ownership. He wasn't being paid and he had fairly solid grounds for believing that he wasn't going to be either. So I suppose it shouldn't come as a surprise that maybe his heart wasn't in it towards the end.

As for his perceived underperformance at Ferrari so far, it's difficult to tell what the reasons are. Maybe it's a lack of motivation. Maybe the characteristics of the car are more suited to Alonso's driving style compared to Kimi's. Maybe Alonso is simply the better driver. We can't say definitively.

greedygoblin

djimi wrote: »

Its also on YouTube in full (or was a few weeks back). Excellent documentary; really makes you realise how little they valued safety and the lives of the drivers back in those days.

Absolutely. I had seen it a while back. That Roger Williamson crash is the one thing that really stood out for me. It really was a different era wasn't it.

_rebelkid

Singapore GP Race Thread.

vectra

zombieHanalei wrote: »

Grosjean had the upper hand on Kimi in the final third of last season too after a year and a half of Kimi being fairly comfortable against him. Kimi has been off his best for over a year now, not just this season..

How would you react if you were not being paid for what you were doing?

Myrddin

vectra wrote: »

How would you react if you were not being paid for what you were doing?

That might go some way in explaining his form this time last year...but not this season. As a fan of Kimi, it has been disappointing this season....to say the least. I'm starting to wonder if he's passed his best at this stage

Frank Bullitt

I think Raikkonen is way past his best now, it feels like he does this for fun more than anything.

vectra

Myrddin wrote: »

That might go some way in explaining his form this time last year...but not this season. As a fan of Kimi, it has been disappointing this season....to say the least. I'm starting to wonder if he's passed his best at this stage

Gintonious wrote: »

I think Raikkonen is way past his best now, it feels like he does this for fun more than anything.

You could both be right,
But I still have faith in him and honestly believe he would be up there if the car was right for him.