Formula 1 2014: General Discussion Thread

Tea 1000

zombieHanalei wrote: »

Nobody said that. You seem to have misinterpreted the post you were responding to, I'm fairly confident the poster meant it would prove he is the best current driver, which he could be; he just hasn't proven it yet.

Nobody has suggested he's the best of all time.

Maybe. He did say "best overall driver" and mentioned that no other F1 driver to his knowledge has done it. (Apart from Fangio!).
In any case I stand by my point. Any good driver needs a certain amount of luck to win 3 titles with 3 different teams.
If Schumacher moved to Renault in 2005 and Alonso to Ferrari I'm fairly sure Schumacher would have won that year in a 3rd team!!

Gillespy

Kubica is better than Hill? Hill a world champion, 22 wins, he won in a Jordan, he was a lap away from winning in an Arrows. I'm all for trusting my gut over statistics but over the course of a career, stats can't be ignored.

Hamilton is where gut feel and stats are happily married. Hamilton's rookie season is the most successful in F1 history. I think I'm correct in saying that, so why is it something that's used against him? He wasn't a pay driver and it wasn't a fluke season. GP2 champion and he took his chance. It's all good.

He is a world champion, the youngest at the time and will finish up with the most wins as a British driver, he deserves more respect that you are giving him. Not surprising as even in the wonderful hypothetical scenario of him winning with three different teams you can't even give him credit. Which will most defianlty have him amongst the greatest ever. But then how lucky was Fangio, different era so impossible to compare.

His move to Mercedes was more judgement than luck. No luck in joining a Ross Brawn team and discovering it's half decent. He had choices. He was joining for 2014, of course no one knew it would be so dominant but people had a feeling it would be good. Smart move.

The best drivers invariably get themselves into the best cars. Lucky but more a reflection of their talent. Have Alonso's moves been lucky? He got them on merit but they didn't work out for him. He was unlucky in that but not lucky to get the seat in the first place.

Tea 1000

Gillespy wrote: »

Kubica is better than Hill? Hill a world champion, 22 wins, he won in a Jordan, he was a lap away from winning in an Arrows. I'm all for trusting my gut over statistics but over the course of a career, stats can't be ignored.

Hamilton is where gut feel and stats are happily married. Hamilton's rookie season is the most successful in F1 history. I think I'm correct in saying that, so why is it something that's used against him? He wasn't a pay driver and it wasn't a fluke season. GP2 champion and he took his chance. It's all good.

He is a world champion, the youngest at the time and will finish up with the most wins as a British driver, he deserves more respect that you are giving him. Not surprising as even in the wonderful hypothetical scenario of him winning with three different teams you can't even give him credit. Which will most defianlty have him amongst the greatest ever. But then how lucky was Fangio, different era so impossible to compare.

And I stick by my Hill comments. I think he was no more than average in F1 terms. Kubica was top 5 on the grid when he was on it.
His move to Mercedes was more judgement than luck. No luck in joining a Ross Brawn team and discovering it's half decent. He had choices. He was joining for 2014, of course no one knew it would be so dominant but people had a feeling it would be good. Smart move.

The best drivers invariably get themselves into the best cars. Lucky but more a reflection of their talent. Have Alonso's moves been lucky? He got them on merit but they didn't work out for him. He was unlucky in that but not lucky to get the seat in the first place.

I fully agree with the last statment, which is the core of the point I was trying to make. I'm not trying to belittle Hamilton here, I'm pointing out that someone's point of judging him if he wins with 3 teams it'll somehow paint him in a better light than the rest. I don't agree with that. I don't agree that it would prove that he was better than Alonso, better than Schumacher, better than Senna, etc.
I've no hesitation in saying that the name Hamilton in Formula 1 terms deserves to be mentioned in the same sentence as many of the greats. But winning 3 more titles with 3 more teams wouldn't change a bit of how I'd perceive him. Same if Alonso won with Ferrari next year and McLaren Honda the following, and maybe Red Bull after that, he'll neither go up nor down in my estimation because he has already proven his capabilities.
Also statistics do help reflect a drivers ability but they're only a small part of the story. I don't think there's a single Hamilton fan on here who thinks 4 time world champion and the youngest champion ever is better than Hamilton.

Gillespy

So you won't have a field day if Hamilton fails to secure the title this season? Title wins will be the be all and end all if that happens I'm sure.

PopePalpatine

I will because I had a bet on Rosberg when he was at 16/1. :pac:

parttime

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I wonder does anybody like Ron Dennis :pac:

I like Ron. Giant of the sport. Will do WHATEVER it takes to win.

mickdw

parttime wrote: »

I like Ron. Giant of the sport. Will do WHATEVER it takes to win.

I like Ron too.
I thought it rather shabby that he was pushed aside and am delighted he is back.
As I think button said earlier this year, Ron being around is guaranteed to make every single person in the factory be that little bit more on their toes.
That can't be bad.
Didn't like how Martin Whitmarsh was disappeared though.

Tea 1000

Gillespy wrote: »

So you won't have a field day if Hamilton fails to secure the title this season? Title wins will be the be all and end all if that happens I'm sure.

Maybe a small, remote, corner field day...

I heard he kills fluffy puppies for fun...

zombieHanalei

I like that Hill v Kubica comparison, although I feel they're fairly closely matched. Hill was a good (as opposed to great) driver, a good driver will win a world title in the best car provided he's better than his team mate.

Seeing as we're talking about luck, I think Hill was lucky in 1996 on a few counts; 1, Williams replaced Coulthard with Villeneuve- a talented rookie who ended up running him very close in the end; Coulthard would have run it even closer, I personally believe Coulthard would have won the '96 title had Williams retained him. 2, Schumacher left Benetton and brought some of their top men with him (Brawn for example), had he stuck with Benetton I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest he and Benetton would have won every title until Renault pulled out at the end of 1997.

It really was Hill's to lose in 1996, he was lucky that circumstances all seemed to favour him, and he delivered. Lucky perhaps, but he had more than earned his place with Williams up to that point, as they say; you make your own luck.

Lewis? I don't consider him lucky, in 2007 it was McLaren that got lucky, as far as they were concerned they went into that season with the best driver in the field in Alonso and a promising rookie teammate who they had mentored for the best part of a decade; the vision was probably Alonso to won his third title in a row while their little protege would build experience and chip in with a few wins and podiums. I don't think in their wildest dreams they could have expected Hamilton to be as competitive as he was. They were so evenly matched that you could argue they both cost each other the drivers title. But McLaren were the lucky ones, they took a gamble on a rookie and it paid off.

In 2008, Lewis certainly was lucky in the end, stole it from Massa at the death. But the subsequent years with McLaren were far from lucky, if anything it was characterized by poor decision making at many stages on the part of both McLaren and Hamilton.

His switch to Mercedes wasn't lucky; in 2012 it was widely believed that Mercedes would be the front runners in 2014, it was the right choice for both the team and the driver at the time. Merc accepted that the second coming of Schumacher wasn't working out, so they went for the best they could get. Alonso was committed to Ferrari at the time, Vettel was never going to leave Red Bull at the time; the best option was an out of contract Lewis Hamilton. It was a no brainer really.

Infoanon

For the record, Robert Kubica was Autosport s driver of the year in 2008.

Frank Bullitt

Rumours now this week with it being the Japanese Gp, that Honda are almost 3 months behind schedule on their power unit.

mickdw

Gintonious wrote: »

Rumours now this week with it being the Japanese Gp, that Honda are almost 3 months behind schedule on their power unit.

With little power and a drinking problem if the press is to be believed.
I'd take it with a pinch of salt though I think.

Frank Bullitt

Rumours a plenty for this weekend!

Zcott

I'd like to know who released that info from the Honda camp...maybe a disgruntled Ferrari employee?

It'll be interesting how this weekend pans out...

Going Strong

Zcott wrote: »

I'd like to know who released that info from the Honda camp...maybe a disgruntled Ferrari employee?

It'll be interesting how this weekend pans out...

Especially as it seems to be the the German and Italian media who are running with the story. No vested interests there, no siree. :rolleyes:

PopePalpatine

Gintonious wrote: »

Rumours a plenty for this weekend!

Including this: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/29422678

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

Rumours now this week with it being the Japanese Gp, that Honda are almost 3 months behind schedule on their power unit.

Don't know about that.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/story/177145.html?CMP=chrome

mickdw

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Including this: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/29422678

Eddie getting a dig in at Honda re jordan winning more races for honda than BAR or the works team. If I remember rightly, when Honda decided to return as a works engine supplier, it was expected that the much more successful of its customer teams - Jordan would get the deal. They chose to go with BAR and later the full Honda team and achieved little.

veganrun

Gintonious wrote: »

Rumours now this week with it being the Japanese Gp, that Honda are almost 3 months behind schedule on their power unit.

Not so sure about that.

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/12479/9497625/honda-have-revealed-the-first-image-of-the-power-unit-that-mclaren-will-use-in-2015

wobbles

When bernie does go, Id love to see Eddie get the job. He knows the sport inside out, knows so many on the grid and has the business background to do the job.

christy c

wobbles wrote: »

When bernie does go, Id love to see Eddie get the job. He knows the sport inside out, knows so many on the grid and has the business background to do the job.

He basically ruled himself out age wise in his Q&A on the BBC site

Myrddin

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Including this: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/29422678

His comments about Vettel are somewhat surprising.

PopePalpatine

christy c wrote: »

He basically ruled himself out age wise in his Q&A on the BBC site

That's a shame, I'd imagine Eddie might care more than Bernie about the smaller teams.

Frank Bullitt

veganrun wrote: »

Not so sure about that.

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/12479/9497625/honda-have-revealed-the-first-image-of-the-power-unit-that-mclaren-will-use-in-2015

Renault did the same thing as well.

smellslikeshoes

Caterham are in serious trouble it seems, bailiffs were at the factory today.
Some of the stuff taken that will be up for auction listed here.

christy c

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

Caterham are in serious trouble it seems, bailiffs were at the factory today.
Some of the stuff taken that will be up for auction is listed here.

Looks very serious alright, particularly the parts due to be used in Japan.

On a side note, I wouldn't fancy getting in to an argument with the CEO of the sheriffs office

mickdw

Car parts, simulator, wheels and tyres, tools?
They may as well just close the doors.

mickdw

christy c wrote: »

On a side note, I wouldn't fancy getting in to an argument with the CEO of the sheriffs office

He is made for the job alright. He does appear to like his job judging by the photo.

Ghost Train

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

Caterham are in serious trouble it seems, bailiffs were at the factory today.
Some of the stuff taken that will be up for auction listed here.

That's kind of sad, wonder will Kobayashi be racing in Japan so

Joeseph Balls

Ghost Train wrote: »

That's kind of sad, wonder will Kobayashi be racing in Japan so

Just seen on twitter they are going ahead with the Japanese GP.

smellslikeshoes

mickdw wrote: »

Car parts, simulator, wheels and tyres, tools?
They may as well just close the doors.

The important stuff is already in Japan, would mostly just be spares/used stuff I imagine. Doesn't really change how bad it looks though.

zombieHanalei

Joeseph Balls wrote: »

Just seen on twitter they are going ahead with the Japanese GP.

I'll believe it when I see it unfortunately. I'd hate to see something like what happened with Arrows in 2002 when they sent the cars out for a lap in the qualifying sessions and deliberately made sure to set times outside the 107% limit as they couldn't afford to run in the race. Don't know if that was just to collect appearance fees or if it was to avoid financial penalties for missing the race.

Looks like three car teams is now one step closer, pity, I really hope it doesn't come to that.

Infoanon

zombieHanalei wrote: »

I'll believe it when I see it unfortunately. I'd hate to see something like what happened with Arrows in 2002 when they sent the cars out for a lap in the qualifying sessions and deliberately made sure to set times outside the 107% limit as they couldn't afford to run in the race. Don't know if that was just to collect appearance fees or if it was to avoid financial penalties for missing the race.
.

Arrows - ran the cars to avoid a financial penalty ie exclusion from the championship.

Caterham - your choice is to believe the High Court enforcement officers, the sheriffs office or believe the Caterham press release.

I would expect the team to compete at the weekend but alas after that it looks doubtful.

The announcement today that there is a financial dispute between Simona de Silvestros management team and Sauber does not bode to well for Sauber and the rumour that Marussia will close after Sochi just wont go away.

Infoanon

Interestingly an article appeared in this mornings Daily Telegraph stating that work on the 2015 Caterham has come to a halt, payments for parts at issue.

I hope we dont end up with a HRT scenario were the Cars were raced with parts well beyond their mileage tolerances.

Robbo

Infoanon wrote: »

Arrows - ran the cars to avoid a financial penalty ie exclusion from the championship.

Caterham - your choice is to believe the High Court enforcement officers, the sheriffs office or believe the Caterham press release.

I would expect the team to compete at the weekend but alas after that it looks doubtful.

The announcement today that there is a financial dispute between Simona de Silvestros management team and Sauber does not bode to well for Sauber and the rumour that Marussia will close after Sochi just wont go away.

We're looking at 3 car teams then next year, aren't we? In which case, who'll be first to shake down Bernie for some extra cash?

Infoanon

Robbo wrote: »

We're looking at 3 car teams then next year, aren't we? In which case, who'll be first to shake down Bernie for some extra cash?

Apparently there is a loose agreement that if the numbers fall to 16 then the top 4 teams will run an additional car.

The 3rd car will not be eligible for points and a team can decline the option to run a third car - thus you have Mclaren saying its too late to run a 3rd car next season.

The real issue however is that FOM have guaranteed a minimum 20 car grid for each F1 event - thus conceivable FOM could be in breach of its agreement with FIA if 3 cars are not run.

How this will play out is going to be interesting - maybe FOM will beforced to help the smaller teams to avoid being held to ransom by the big 4?

acquiescefc

Has there been much mention of the typhoon on its way?

In Tokyo at the mo and getting a tad worried.

christy c

Infoanon wrote: »

The 3rd car will not be eligible for points

How does that work then? Are they just running a third car for the sake of it.

I remember 3 car teams being mentioned in the late 90s as well

bnt

acquiescefc wrote: »

Has there been much mention of the typhoon on its way?

In Tokyo at the mo and getting a tad worried.

I was going to mention that too. Based on current predictions, the worst will come well after the Grand Prix, but that doesn't rule out rain.

Frank Bullitt

A wet Japanese GP would be sweet.

Jordan 199

OSI wrote: »

Apparently Hugo Boss have started sponsoring Mercedes.

They have indeed. Here's Lewis and Nico looking sharp in Hugo Boss suits:

stevenmu

christy c wrote: »

How does that work then? Are they just running a third car for the sake of it.

I remember 3 car teams being mentioned in the late 90s as well

I believe it's the best two that earn points. Though I'm not sure if that's the best two in each earn the points for that race, or if the best two over the course of a season get points.

I guess the big unknown is what happens to the cars finishing behind the 3rd car. i.e. if Merc finish 1st, 2nd and 3rd, and then a Red Bull finishes 4th, does it get the normal 4th place points or the 3rd place points.

Terrontress

stevenmu wrote: »

I believe it's the best two that earn points. Though I'm not sure if that's the best two in each earn the points for that race, or if the best two over the course of a season get points.

I guess the big unknown is what happens to the cars finishing behind the 3rd car. i.e. if Merc finish 1st, 2nd and 3rd, and then a Red Bull finishes 4th, does it get the normal 4th place points or the 3rd place points.

Does each race essentially become a test for the top teams? Try out new parts, new pit mechanics, test tyre limits without any consequence.

Infoanon

stevenmu wrote: »

I believe it's the best two that earn points. Though I'm not sure if that's the best two in each earn the points for that race, or if the best two over the course of a season get points.

I guess the big unknown is what happens to the cars finishing behind the 3rd car. i.e. if Merc finish 1st, 2nd and 3rd, and then a Red Bull finishes 4th, does it get the normal 4th place points or the 3rd place points.

My understanding is that the 3rd car is designated at the beginning of the season and is in eligible for points,, it will get an allowance for transport costs etc - 50% of the standard rate - while the cars that finish behind the 3rd car will mkve up the points.

If 3 teams do happen expect the above to change ! The only team of the big 4 willing to run a 3rd car at the moment is Ferrari.

The latest rumours is that Caterham will operate from a German base for the remainder of the season - the team was already expected to move from Leafield to Europe for the 2015 season.
Bailiffs did remove equipment from Leafield - on Tuesday - and apparently it was the second visit in 2 weeks.

zombieHanalei

A bit strange that the response to three teams potentially pulling out due to financial reasons is to come up with a solution that further increases the financial expenses for at least 4 teams.

As EJ touched on, the top 10 only receiving tv money is ludicrous, how is that supposed to help the likes of Caterham and Marussia?

And there's a few too many fly/away races for my liking, can't imagine the expense of having to fly equipment from Singapore to Japan, then to Russia, then to Texas, then to Brazil and then to Abu Dhabi in the space of two months is in any way going to assist Caterham's plight at the moment.

Infoanon

zombieHanalei wrote: »

A bit strange that the response to three teams potentially pulling out due to financial reasons is to come up with a solution that further increases the financial expenses for at least 4 teams.

As EJ touched on, the top 10 only receiving tv money is ludicrous, how is that supposed to help the likes of Caterham and Marussia?

And there's a few too many fly/away races for my liking, can't imagine the expense of having to fly equipment from Singapore to Japan, then to Russia, then to Texas, then to Brazil and then to Abu Dhabi in the space of two months is in any way going to assist Caterham's plight at the moment.

The owners of F1, CVC, want an 8 3 car team grid, indeed a 6 manufacturer 2 customer teams is the preferred option.CVC are only interested in squeezing as much out of F1 as possible.

Going Strong

Infoanon wrote: »

Arrows - ran the cars to avoid a financial penalty ie exclusion from the championship.

Caterham - your choice is to believe the High Court enforcement officers, the sheriffs office or believe the Caterham press release.

I would expect the team to compete at the weekend but alas after that it looks doubtful.

The announcement today that there is a financial dispute between Simona de Silvestros management team and Sauber does not bode to well for Sauber and the rumour that Marussia will close after Sochi just wont go away.

Either that or Bernie will advance Caterham their participation money a bit early so they can struggle on until the end of the season. He did the same for Lotus last year. Post-season, I doubt Bernie will care overly much what happens to Caterham.

vectra

Berger to replace Dennis at McLaren??

Wonder is this to entice Alonso to them?

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/report-berger-to-replace-dennis-at-mclaren/

Going Strong

zombieHanalei wrote: »

A bit strange that the response to three teams potentially pulling out due to financial reasons is to come up with a solution that further increases the financial expenses for at least 4 teams.

As EJ touched on, the top 10 only receiving tv money is ludicrous, how is that supposed to help the likes of Caterham and Marussia?

And there's a few too many fly/away races for my liking, can't imagine the expense of having to fly equipment from Singapore to Japan, then to Russia, then to Texas, then to Brazil and then to Abu Dhabi in the space of two months is in any way going to assist Caterham's plight at the moment.

Doesn't Bernie cover the transportation costs for the flyaway races himself - or at least at a huge discount to the teams? Or is that just for the cars and equipment leaving the actual team personnel's travel and accommodation for the teams themselves to pay for? I'm fairly sure that the teams don't have to pay the full amount as it was one of the 'sweeteners' to get them to agree to so many far-flung races. AFAIK, they pay for the European, truck-transported, races all by themselves.

_rebelkid

Japanese GP Race Thread, hurriedly thrown together