Formula 1 2014: General Discussion Thread

Going Strong

wobbles wrote: »

Not looking good for the smaller teams at all. Wasnt there ment to be an American team starting next year or has that been cancelled.

With so many teams in financial trouble and the option for 3 car teams, what kind of notice do the teams need in order to have a 3rd car ready in time. Can you imagine the frenzy trying to sign up an extra race driver from all the teams if it were to happen.

Haas aren't coming in until 2016. Gene Haas, the team owner is adamant that he'll not be rushed into joining a year early just to prop up the grid.

There's murmurs now that three car teams won't happen next year no matter how many back marker teams go bust this year. Bernie might keep Sauber and Marussia going next season but I don't think he cares much for Caterham so they're gone. The former two teams, although in trouble, tend to "keep their noses clean" so to speak with very little running to the press or thrash talking the other teams and what have you. Any teams that do like Caterham has and make waves while in financial peril, gets nothing from Bernie. He was similarly unconcerned at Arrows and Prost's demise due to their actions in "bringing the sport into disrepute" from a Bernie standpoint that is.

muckwarrior

mickdw wrote: »

Yes, no doubt he is a super intelligent chap, did alot of work with Jordan in setting up suspension simulation rigs as far as I've heard.
Most likely a better hands on tech guy that a senior manager though and has therefore moved teams backwards in the senior positions.

Sounds like a classic case of the Peter Principle.

Tippex

It's crazy to see the sport having to deal with these sort of things almost year after year. It has taken me quite a few years to get back into the sport after the demise of Jordan.

I would say there is a portion of truth in each side of the story WRT Caterham but I doubt we will ever hear the whole story.

_rebelkid

Caterham to miss US and Brazil.

Myrddin

_rebelkid wrote: »

Caterham to miss US and Brazil.

This whole situation is a train wreck at this stage.

Charlie-Bravo

Ok for the comp, I take it selecting Caterham as the Constructor not to finish with any cars won't be a runner :pac:

Frank Bullitt

I think its the end of the road for them. I could imagine Bernie would somehow help Sauber or indeed Marussia, they stay out of this type of messy business.

tripperman

i would actualluy be happy to see caterham go, but would be gutted if marussia were to go, i like how john booth runs things nice and quiet

Scotty #

wobbles wrote: »

With so many teams in financial trouble and the option for 3 car teams, what kind of notice do the teams need in order to have a 3rd car ready in time. Can you imagine the frenzy trying to sign up an extra race driver from all the teams if it were to happen.

3 car teams won't happen. Most teams can barely afford to run two. Claire Williams has already stated they will not be able to raise the 30 million it would cost them to run a third car.

Zcott

_rebelkid wrote: »

Caterham to miss US and Brazil.

Best line from that article:

Caterham will continue the record of all F1 teams set up at Leafield not reaching the end of the season if it cannot race in Abu Dhabi, following in the footsteps of Arrows and Super Aguri.

That place is cursed!

tripperman

Scotty # wrote: »

3 car teams won't happen. Most teams can barely afford to run two. Claire Williams has already stated they will not be able to raise the 30 million it would cost them to run a third car.

only teams i think would run 3 car teams are ferrari, mclaren, merc, red bull and toro rosso,

_rebelkid

Myrddin wrote: »

This whole situation is a train wreck at this stage.

Remember how we all thought the HRT thing was terrible? Looks like a Summer walk on the beach compared to this...

mickdw

muckwarrior wrote: »

Sounds like a classic case of the Peter Principle.

Absolutely. I wasnt aware of that theory but it's very interesting and makes absolute sense.

Frank Bullitt

_rebelkid wrote: »

Remember how we all thought the HRT thing was terrible? Looks like a Summer walk on the beach compared to this...

At least with HRT they never tried to hide it, these lads are doing their dirty washing out in the public eye.

Peanut Butter Jelly

tripperman wrote: »

only teams i think would run 3 car teams are ferrari, mclaren, merc, red bull and toro rosso,

The reality is if 3 car teams were be needed, it would have to decided around June/July. At this point, teams don't have enough time to source funding for the extra seats and drivers have signed contracts with 2 car teams in mind.Plus, the rules governing points and driver criteria for that 3rd seat would have to be decided.

However, 2016 would be a viable option for most teams if it was announced in the next 6 months.

mickdw

Scotty # wrote: »

3 car teams won't happen. Most teams can barely afford to run two. Claire Williams has already stated they will not be able to raise the 30 million it would cost them to run a third car.

30 million just to run a third car sounds mental.
I don't doubt it though.
Still the bigger teams would have no issues. Horner when asked said they could run the 3rd car at the next race weekend if needed.

Infoanon

A lot of misinformation being sprouted about 3 car teams, Bernie has a problem because he guaranteed 20 car grids , the teams want more money to run 3 teams, apart from Ferrari the teams are playing hard ball.

Marussia, if they run in Austin, may only run one car, grid numbers 19 ! ! FIA announcing that they wont in force 3 car teams in 2014 is just part of the political game being played out.

Zcott

Interesting to see if this affects COTA's contract because they're guaranteed 20 cars. Apparently they're struggling to make the race pay, so this could be a good bargaining point.

If I was Bernie, I'd pay Marussia to run Rossi in Bianchi's seat. Double bonus of filling the grid and having an American driver in an American GP.

Myrddin

Zcott wrote: »

If I was Bernie, I'd pay Marussia to run Rossi in Bianchi's seat. Double bonus of filling the grid and having an American driver in an American GP.

I'd say that's what will happen

tripperman

Peanut Butter Jelly wrote: »

The reality is if 3 car teams were be needed, it would have to decided around June/July. At this point, teams don't have enough time to source funding for the extra seats and drivers have signed contracts with 2 car teams in mind.Plus, the rules governing points and driver criteria for that 3rd seat would have to be decided.

However, 2016 would be a viable option for most teams if it was announced in the next 6 months.

totally agree, i think they are the only teams who would consider the idea, is it a good idea, no its not! we need small teams to get more money from bernie and fia

_rebelkid

Zcott wrote: »

Interesting to see if this affects COTA's contract because they're guaranteed 20 cars.

Make that 18. Reuters Reporter Alan Baldwin has said that Bernie told him neither Marussia nor Caterham will be there.

Cookie_Monster

Alonso linked to an audi 2016 programme now is the latest rumour

Zcott

_rebelkid wrote: »

Make that 18. Reuters Reporter Alan Baldwin has said that Bernie told him neither Marussia nor Caterham will be there.

This is bad. It puts Sauber literally at the back of the grid.

Going Strong

_rebelkid wrote: »

Make that 18. Reuters Reporter Alan Baldwin has said that Bernie told him neither Marussia nor Caterham will be there.

I told you Bernie wanted Caterham to f**k off and die as far away from F1 as possible. F1 is in enough trouble without them stinking up the paddock with their zombie corpse. I'm surprised about Marussia though as I thought he'd bail them out until the season was over when they too could crawl away and die in the off season when nobody's looking. Bernie still has nightmares about Arrows making a holy show of themselves back in 2002 as they limped along doing the least amount possible to stay on the grid.

AFAIK, only Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren are obliged to run three cars thanks to individual deals they worked out with Bernie some years back. Some sources say that Toro Rosso are obliged to field three cars as well - whether that's because they're part of Red Bull's deal or not is the question. At the time, Mercedes were nowhere so weren't asked although they're being asked now but haven't said what they'll do.

Infoanon

_rebelkid wrote: »

Make that 18. Reuters Reporter Alan Baldwin has said that Bernie told him neither Marussia nor Caterham will be there.

Confirmed by multiple sources, afaik the 2015 entry application must be completed at the beginning of November.

Both teams can miss the rest of the season, however for Marussia they now run the risk of Sauber leap frogging them especially with double points in the season finale.

Also confirms the rumour that Sochi would be Marussias last race.

AMKC

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116497

Ye it is on Autosport too and was on Sky News as well. Probably on all the other channels too. I think it is very sad about Catherham and the mess it is in. I think Bernie needs to make it easier and help small teams more not try and discourage the small teams and new teams. Otherwise F1 could get very boring. I for one will not watch it iff there ends up being 3 car teams on the grid. Whats the point the 3rd car can,t even score points and not all the teams would have the money to run a 3rd car.

PopePalpatine

Not to mention that the presence of 3rd cars will make it much harder for midfield teams to score points.

Going Strong

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Not to mention that the presence of 3rd cars will make it much harder for midfield teams to score points.

Even funnier, if there were three car teams this year, grandee marques like Ferrari and McLaren would be no better than Caterham or Sauber when it came to having nothing to show for it.

Joeseph Balls

Whats this thing going around on twitter that front teams should/have to provide a spare care for struggling teams?

Infoanon

Joeseph Balls wrote: »

Whats this thing going around on twitter that front teams should/have to provide a spare care for struggling teams?

'Spare care'...a Freudian slip ?

A spare care is about how much the top teams will give them.

Going Strong

Joeseph Balls wrote: »

Whats this thing going around on twitter that front teams should/have to provide a spare care for struggling teams?

We don't know. According to Joe Saward, nobody knows what's happening with three car teams. Some teams have an agreement with Bernie to provide three cars in the event of the numbers falling below a certain amount. What amount? Nobody knows. Even some of the teams actually, like, competing in F1, don't know what's going on.

What we can surmise is that Bernie is trying to offload *his* problem of providing a certain number of cars per race onto the teams by using his tried and trusted "Divide & Rule" methods. Most likely he'll be using the confidential agreements signed with particular teams to his advantage as he'll be the only one who'll know what it says in each contract and the teams daren't tell one another due to confidentiality clauses and the fear that someone might be bluffing them. Bernie wants three car teams but doesn't want to pay for them so will try and get either the obliged teams to run three cars themselves or else try and strong arm/sweet talk them into giving a car to the lesser teams but, most likely, getting some sort of payment for them. He'll reason that, if the likes of Red Bull are handing out suspension geometry to minnow teams, then it's only a logical progression to be handing out an entire chassis.

Infoanon

Forbes are reporting that Marussia have informed the London high court that they intend on appointing an administrator.

Technically it does not mean that the team will enter administration but it is a first step in the process.

Ghost Train

October really has been a bad month for f1. Mercedes winning the title was positive though, but do hope November leaves the sport looking better. Having the grid shrink to 18 cars for next race won't be good either

vectra

_rebelkid wrote: »

Make that 18. Reuters Reporter Alan Baldwin has said that Bernie told him neither Marussia nor Caterham will be there.

Could now be as low as 16.
Apparently Force India have to make a payment to mercedes by today or risk missing out as well.
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-set-for-three-car-teams-as-more-risk-collapse/

Germany's Auto Motor und Sport claims that Force India needs to make an engine payment to Mercedes by Monday or risk joining Caterham and Marussia in missing the US Grand Prix.

And Force India deputy boss Bob Fernley admitted more teams are in danger of collapse.

Infoanon

Marussia have gone into administration this morning.

Sterling Archer

Infoanon wrote: »

Marussia have gone into administration this morning.

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/17581/9537199/marussia-have-entered-administration-it-was-confirmed-on-monday

Myrddin

Infoanon wrote: »

Marussia have gone into administration this morning.

That's sad to see. The team went through big highs (Monaco), & the lowest of the lows (Japan)

Going Strong

Myrddin wrote: »

That's sad to see. The team went through big highs (Monaco), & the lowest of the lows (Japan)

In fact, the Bianchi crash might just be the cause of their troubles if it turns out that Ferrari stopped supporting the team financially since they no longer have Bianchi driving for the team. A similar knock-on effect could be happening next year to Sauber now that Bianchi won't be driving for them either.

bnt

Mario Andretti is of the opinion that the big teams can and should run a third car in Austin next Sunday:

Formula One should loosen up a bit. I think they’ve gone slightly overboard with the technical side of the engine. And we saw in Sochi [the previous race in Russia] teams backing off for fuel reasons, just to make it to the end.

I would love to see a team invite a third car for a special event. For the US Grand Prix, say, Mercedes could invite a third car, having groomed some well-known American driver in testing, to take part as a guest competitor. Can you imagine what that would do for the promotion of the event? Every newspaper in the country would write about it.

There are ways of using a little bit of creativity to enhance and increase the interest. It’s all there for the taking. It’s just a question of looking at some of the stranger rules they have in F1. Some people might laugh at that, but what I’m saying is very valid. And as time goes by they may have to look at things like this. F1 should explore every angle.

Sterling Archer

What if the third car was allowed to run a different livery perhaps it would be easier for some teams to gain the funds necessary to run the car, eg. if it was for a single special event surely a sponsor would step in for that single race...

Myrddin

I wouldn't be a fan of introducing a 3rd car this near the end of the season. All it will do is make an already near impossible job the lower teams have, even more difficult. Bernie should be making it easier for teams to progress in F1, not making it harder by having more Mercs/Red Bulls out there.

andyman

Going Strong wrote: »

In fact, the Bianchi crash might just be the cause of their troubles if it turns out that Ferrari stopped supporting the team financially since they no longer have Bianchi driving for the team. A similar knock-on effect could be happening next year to Sauber now that Bianchi won't be driving for them either.

What distasteful bastards Ferrari are if this is true.

In fact, it simply can't be true.

I hope the big teams stand up for themselves and by-proxy for the smaller teams. Refuse to have 3 cars. Bernie and the rest will have to do something to address costs and so on then. For the sport to be making tens of millions (perhaps hundreds) in clear profit every single year while the teams can't support themselves is ridiculous.

How much per race could Ferrari have been paying them though?

Frank Bullitt

Going Strong wrote: »

In fact, the Bianchi crash might just be the cause of their troubles if it turns out that Ferrari stopped supporting the team financially since they no longer have Bianchi driving for the team. A similar knock-on effect could be happening next year to Sauber now that Bianchi won't be driving for them either.

I highly doubt that they would do that at all.

smellslikeshoes

Deleted User wrote: »

How much per race could Ferrari have been paying them though?

They don't pay them, Ferrari give Marussia free engines for the year. Haven't been able to find anything solid on how much that is worth to them but I think I remember it being said 15-20 mil.
And I really doubt Ferrari decided to start charging them after the accident, it would be PR suicide.

GarIT

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How much per race could Ferrari have been paying them though?

They weren't, the deal was a discount on the engines. If Ferrari really cared about the seat they bought they could always give it to Pedro DLR.

Ghost Train

38million debt is what the some stories are saying
I doubt Ferrari were looking for money owed, I'd say it was just running costs of the team had reached a limit

According to the daily, if the deal passes through the two brothers would also inherit Marussia’s current debt of about €38 million, believed to be owed by the team to Ferrari for their engines this season

http://en.itar-tass.com/sports/756679

I'd say there's a good chance they'll find a buyer for the team, presumably if they finish 9th in the championship they'll get some reasonable money, in the region of 50million dollars maybe(not that I'd trust the source below too much)?

http://www.tsmplug.com/f1/formula-1-prize-money/

Frank Bullitt

This will be the smallest grid since Monaco 2005, for this race anyway.

smellslikeshoes

Ghost Train wrote: »

38million debt is what the some stories are saying
I doubt Ferrari were looking for money owed, I'd say it was just running costs of the team had reached a limit


http://en.itar-tass.com/sports/756679

I'd say there's a good chance they'll find a buyer for the team, presumably if they finish 9th in the championship they'll get some reasonable money, in the region of 50million dollars maybe(not that I'd trust the source below too much)?

http://www.tsmplug.com/f1/formula-1-prize-money/

There is a lot of talk on other forums that these guys are probably in the same category as Mansoor Ijaz. For guys that are supposed to be steel billionaires there really isn't much info on them.

According to the daily, if the deal passes through the two brothers would also inherit Marussia’s current debt of about €38 million, believed to be owed by the team to Ferrari for their engines this season

Before anyone gets any ideas about getting a loan out :pac:, they cleared their debt at the start of this season so that 38 million is only their debt up to this point of the season :eek: