Formula 1 2014: General Discussion Thread

Jordan 199

Zcott wrote: »

There's a good interview with Jacques Villeneuve in this month's F1 Racing in which he really regrets saying that they'd win their first race. The car wasn't too bad, just chronically unreliable.

F1 Racing. I didn't read that publication in ages :eek:

Zcott

Jordan 191 wrote: »

F1 Racing. I didn't read that publication in ages :eek:

Some good interviews in it; I subscribe on my iPad and get all the issues delivered automatically.

cadaliac

Scotty # wrote: »

The first time I ever heard Toto Wolff's name being mentioned was in connection to him taking over from Bernie some day. Very powerful man in Motorsport, has his finger in a lot of pie's. I don't think Horner is alpha enough for the job. Someone like Ron Dennis would be better but he's a bit of a loon. Ross Brawn maybe?

Reading the WiKi on Toto, Jesus, there aren't enough hours in the day for him :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toto_Wolff
Seems to be a strong successor to Bernie alright. Impressive alright.
Ross Brawn is an interesting one. Would he be politically savy enough I wonder?
He definately has the minerals for the job, but, does he want it?
Does Bernie want him either? A lot will hinge on Bernie too.

flazio

If Brawn did it would be interesting because then you would have Jean Todt and Ross Brawn working together again. Doesn't feel that long ago since they headed up Ferrari together.

bbability

Great interview on Sky F1 before FP3 with Ted Kravitz and Bernie. Grid could drop to 14 cars and or may start with 18 next season. Looks like Sauber Force India and Lotus hanging on by a thread.

HighLine

bbability wrote: »

Great interview on Sky F1 before FP3 with Ted Kravitz and Bernie. Grid could drop to 14 cars and or may start with 18 next season. Looks like Sauber Force India and Lotus hanging on by a thread.

Was indeed a very good interview. I totally agree with both Bernie and the US promoter, I don't think too many people will care if there are 18 cars on the grid next year but the lack of noise is still a major issue.

Yes, there has been some great racing this year but when you attend a grand prix, you want to feel the power, feel it almost pound against your chest. These engines do not and it's no surprise that an American promoter looks genuinely pissed about it.

mickdw

HighLine wrote: »

Was indeed a very good interview. I totally agree with both Bernie and the US promoter, I don't think too many people will care if there are 18 cars on the grid next year but the lack of noise is still a major issue.

Yes, there has been some great racing this year but when you attend a grand prix, you want to feel the power, feel it almost pound against your chest. These engines do not and it's no surprise that an American promoter looks genuinely pissed about it.

Bernie likes to have the promoters show how unhappy they are. It's all part of his game. I wouldn't read to much into the promoters comments. They is no doubt that Bernie wants to bring abit of noise back into it and that is no bad thing so whatever way he wishes to go about it is fine by me.

Cookie_Monster

I'd far rather more cars than more noise tbh.

Infoanon

bbability wrote: »

Great interview on Sky F1 before FP3 with Ted Kravitz and Bernie. Grid could drop to 14 cars and or may start with 18 next season. Looks like Sauber Force India and Lotus hanging on by a thread.

It looks like there is some substance to the rumours that Lotus, Sauber and Force India would boycott tomorrow's race, Lotus appear to be back on side.

Perhaps thats where Bernies talk of 14 cars came from ? With the promoter saying that numbers dont matter , imho the noise of the engines is a complete red herring being put out there by Bernie.

Zcott

Infoanon wrote: »

It looks like there is some substance to the rumours that Lotus, Sauber and Force India would boycott tomorrow's race, Lotus appear to be back on side.

Perhaps thats where Bernies talk of 14 cars came from ? With the promoter saying that numbers dont matter , imho the noise of the engines is a complete red herring being put out there by Bernie.

I really really hope the boycott doesn't happen. The last race to be boycotted was in 2005...at the USGP. It took a while for America to come around to F1 after that race, and I don't want a repeat of that. Had it been somewhere like India or Korea that would be fine, but not Austin.

Myrddin

I didn't see the interview, what's the story with these rumours about a boycott?

Infoanon

Infoanon wrote: »

It looks like there is some substance to the rumours that Lotus, Sauber and Force India would boycott tomorrow's race, Lotus appear to be back on side.

Perhaps thats where Bernies talk of 14 cars came from ? With the promoter saying that numbers dont matter , imho the noise of the engines is a complete red herring being put out there by Bernie.

The promoter, Bobby Epstein, when speaking to the BBC earlier (before Sky),called onF1 to find a way to get more cars in the grid ! And suggested 3 car teams.

All talk of a Las Vegas race has disappeared at the same time !

Going Strong

I'll not see any boycott as I'm not watching the race. BBC have the highlights on far too late tomorrow night and, from reading elsewhere, the TV director in Austin is an incompetent clown so I'd be lucky to see anything of note.

Ghost Train

Did watch the team principle type press conference yesterday, talking about losing the two teams mostly. Some good arguments for cutting costs or making it more sustainable for smaller teams. But they need to find away to make it balance out so that teams like ferrari and mclaren don't have their business damaged and manufactures want to stay in the sport. Think F1 does need the independent teams that will stick around in the sport. Governing body really do need to make it possible for smaller and midfield teams to at least survive and try and compete, otherwise could just keep getting worse, and shouldn't have to be at the expense of the big teams

Going Strong

Lopez' comment about spending 300m just to be six seconds faster than a GP2 car said it all. It's grand for Toto Wolff to claim that he's spending within his own budget but all he has to do is pop along to Stuttgart and ask for some more money off Mercedes head office. The likes of Lotus and Force India will have no such luck getting more money out of their decreasing amount of sponsors.

Ghost Train

Going Strong wrote: »

Lopez' comment about spending 300m just to be six seconds faster than a GP2 car said it all. It's grand for Toto Wolff to claim that he's spending within his own budget but all he has to do is pop along to Stuttgart and ask for some more money off Mercedes head office. The likes of Lotus and Force India will have no such luck getting more money out of their decreasing amount of sponsors.

yes, I think since marrusia and catterham had survived through last season their businesses must have been somewhat sustainable, I doubt their work force number changed since last year. New rule changes shouldn't have been allowed to destroy that and that people in charge or big players make the decisions without looking at the effects on the sport or protecting the competitors somewhat is a big failing.

HighLine

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'd far rather more cars than more noise tbh.

It totally baffles me how people would think it's more important to have a few more mobile chicanes rather than restore F1's noise. To each their own.

GarIT

HighLine wrote: »

It totally baffles me how people would think it's more important to have a few more mobile chicanes rather than restore F1's noise. To each their own.

Noise has nothing to do with racing, sure it's a nice feeling but a basic knowledge of physics would say that noise = inefficiency. IA 100% efficient engine would have to be silent. More noise is good for the spectacle but bad for the racing.

Personally I'll miss the two teams, they didn't get much coverage but there have been many great battles at the back of the field over the last few years.

HighLine

GarIT wrote: »

More noise is good for the spectacle but bad for the racing.

Are you serious? Bad for racing? Come on now. Maybe you should watch Formula E then if you have such a great concern for engine and fuel efficiency.

GarIT

HighLine wrote: »

Are you serious? Bad for racing? Come on now. Maybe you should watch Formula E then if you have such a great concern for engine and fuel efficiency.

The faster the cars go the better, I don't care about noise if the cars are going faster. It's not about reducing the amount of fuel used but increasing the amount of power delivered from the fuel, noise is lost energy, less noise = more energy. You won't find an engineer that would agree more noise is better, as noise is lost power that could have gone to the wheels.

If you want to make the cars more noisy you will have to implement a device which will waste power that was previously going to the wheels.

I do watch Formula E, or at least have watched the last race and intend to watch the next one.

mickdw

GarIT wrote: »

The faster the cars go the better, I don't care about noise if the cars are going faster. It's not about reducing the amount of fuel used but increasing the amount of power delivered from the fuel, noise is lost energy, less noise = more energy. You won't find an engineer that would agree more noise is better, as noise is lost power that could have gone to the wheels.

If you want to make the cars more noisy you will have to implement a device which will waste power that was previously going to the wheels.

I do watch Formula E, or at least have watched the last race and intend to watch the next one.

Have you ever experienced an f1 car in person.
The noise was astounding with the old engines. Pure violence is the only way I could describe it. That can only lead to it being a major part of the f1 experience.

GarIT

mickdw wrote: »

Have you ever experienced an f1 car in person.
The noise was astounding with the old engines. Pure violence is the only way I could describe it. That can only lead to it being a major part of the f1 experience.

Yes I have. I did say the loss of noise is a loss of the spectacle. As engines technology is improved they will get quieter, just think of diesel engines over the last 20 years. Personally I'd take being the pinnacle of engineering and faster cars over noisy cars.

mickdw

GarIT wrote: »

Yes I have. I did say the loss of noise is a loss of the spectacle. As engines technology is improved they will get quieter, just think of diesel engines over the last 20 years. Personally I'd take being the pinnacle of engineering and faster cars over noisy cars.

I wouldnt to be honest.
I wouldn't mind quiet cars if the team's went there by choice. For example, if the rules were more open and simply allowed each driver 100 kg of fuel and allowed the team to use it as they saw fit it would be quiet interesting. You would have some going the current route, some going lower tune versions of the old tech to grab an odd point by way of reliability. Some might have a turbo, some might not. The noise variation would be an interesting part of the whole thing then. As it stands, it's a high tech, efficient but dull engine formula.

GarIT

mickdw wrote: »

I wouldnt to be honest.
I wouldn't mind quiet cars if the team's went there by choice. For example, if the rules were more open and simply allowed each driver 100 kg of fuel and allowed the team to use it as they saw fit it would be quiet interesting. You would have some going the current route, some going lower tune versions of the old tech to grab an odd point by way of reliability. Some might have a turbo, some might not. The noise variation would be an interesting part of the whole thing then. As it stands, it's a high tech, efficient but dull engine formula.

Any of the teams could make their engine very noisy very easily but they would loose power. I do agree with less rules. Given a choice of a turbo or not every team would take it, even with open rules every team would go for the fastest solution. A lot of the constructors are only interested because it is high tech. I disagree about it being dull.

_rebelkid

Marcus Ericsson will race for Sauber in 2015

Frank Bullitt

Thats Sauber safe so.

Charlie-Bravo

Gintonious wrote: »

Thats Sauber safe so.

How much does Ericsson bring with him?

Infoanon

mickdw wrote: »

Have you ever experienced an f1 car in person.
The noise was astounding with the old engines. Pure violence is the only way I could describe it. That can only lead to it being a major part of the f1 experience.

A lot of people attending race meetings wear ear plugs to block out the engine noise and in my experience the engine noise was rather ruined by the rev limiter kicking in.

F1 is basically a television sport and thus the noise is irrelevant - IF the noise was of any relevance then the audio mix could be adjusted by the broadcasters.

mickdw

Infoanon wrote: »

A lot of people attending race meetings wear ear plugs to block out the engine noise and in my experience the engine noise was rather ruined by the rev limiter kicking in.

F1 is basically a television sport and thus the noise is irrelevant - IF the noise was of any relevance then the audio mix could be adjusted by the broadcasters.

The broadcast audio was well discussed here at the start of the year. I couldn't believe that the world feed had not significantly adjusted the circuit mics for the sound change. After all you would getting better engine sounds on a basic broadcast from mondeo.
Some sounds engineers commented that it was not that simple and that given the pitch of these specific engines, you would get issues of drowning out voices etc . I didn't quite agree myself but this was later confirmed by sky saying that they had issues with increasing the sound volume.

Infoanon

mickdw wrote: »

The broadcast audio was well discussed here at the start of the year. I couldn't believe that the world feed had not significantly adjusted the circuit mics for the sound change. After all you would getting better engine sounds on a basic broadcast from mondeo.
Some sounds engineers commented that it was not that simple and that given the pitch of these specific engines, you would get issues of drowning out voices etc . I didn't quite agree myself but this was later confirmed by sky saying that they had issues with increasing the sound volume.

Sounds, accuse the pun, questionable - Sky sticking to the Bernie line.

Ghost Train

Has the sound of the cars topic been pushed out there by Bernie to distract or divert from the loss of cars on the grid

Gillespy

It's exactly what Bernie wanted by resurrecting the noise debate. Cars sound fine. Exciting racing and they're not slow either. Pole today was .3 faster than last year, what kind of times will they be doing in a year or two? He keeps forgetting Renault would be gone and Honda wouldn't be coming back if they stuck with the old engines.

Two teams in administration and three more threatening a boycott and Bernie saying noise is the problem. He is the problem.

mickdw

Infoanon wrote: »

Sounds, accuse the pun, questionable - Sky sticking to the Bernie line.

My thoughts exactly at the time but being the type I am i tried to Run the f1 without commentary on the TV - one of the channels allowed a no commentary option on the red button then played normal feed of both commentary and engine at a lower level on another device beside it.
I could only go very marginally higher with the circuit feed before it made listening to the commentary annoying. From that point, I took the word of the sound engineers.
Obviously the circuit techs could make many more alterations than that but there is something to the argument that the pitch of these engines make it quite difficult to broadcast.

Infoanon

mickdw wrote: »

My thoughts exactly at the time but being the type I am i tried to Run the f1 without commentary on the TV - one of the channels allowed a no commentary option on the red button then played normal feed of both commentary and engine at a lower level on another device beside it.
I could only go very marginally higher with the circuit feed before it made listening to the commentary annoying. From that point, I took the word of the sound engineers.
Obviously the circuit techs could make many more alterations than that but there is something to the argument that the pitch of these engines make it quite difficult to broadcast.

The pitch of a number of a few well known singers is questionable but the audio techs can work their magic - the noise issue is a red herring brought up Bernie to avoid discussion of a 12 car grid.
The audio on the red button has already been processed, you would need the source audio to do any meaningful mixing.

bbability

There's another reason Bernie and his wigs want less teams. They want to dish more money out to the existing stronger teams rather than give hand outs to teams who will never earn a point nor win a race. The noise factor is been worked on by the engine designers and teams.

mickdw

Infoanon wrote: »

The pitch of a number of a few well known singers is questionable but the audio techs can work their magic - the noise issue is a red herring brought up Bernie to avoid discussion of a 12 car grid.
The audio on the red button has already been processed, you would need the source audio to do any meaningful mixing.

I know Bernie is only talking about it now for his own reasons and I agree re source audio etc but the idea that commentary is much nearer in pitch to these engines than the old ones holds water and that is where the issues arise.

Ghost Train

We need some female commentators so or could they try run the commentary feed through a chipmunk filter, might be fun experiment

Infoanon

bbability wrote: »

There's another reason Bernie and his wigs want less teams. They want to dish more money out to the existing stronger teams rather than give hand outs to teams who will never earn a point nor win a race. The noise factor is been worked on by the engine designers and teams.

The big teams just want more money full stop.

Lotus have won races as recently as 2013, Sauber as BMW or a 2nd place as recently as 2012 while Force India have had a pole and a second in the past and a podium in 2014.

5 teams with A and B team variations a la Red Bull and Toro Rosso is the rumoured long term plan.

I wonder what Haas F1 make of it all !

PopePalpatine

I'd say Haas wouldn't suffer the same fate as HRT, as Haas Automotive is worth something like $1bn. I'd say they'll slot into the Toro Rosso/Lotus/Sauber scrap.

Stainless_Steel

It's quite sad that the small teams are struggling so much. They are so important IMO. They give great people (drivers, engineers etc) a gateway into the sport.

One of my highlights of the season has been Marussia getting their points in Monaco. It meant so much to them.

I don't want 5/6 super powers (with ulterior branding/advertising motives( competing with 3 cars.

Something needs to be done. The tech regulations are too cost prohibitive.

Jordan 199

_rebelkid wrote: »

Marcus Ericsson will race for Sauber in 2015

I wonder which driver will have to make way for him.

Sauber are having an awful season. They have gone downhill since James Key and Matt Morris departed from the team.

Zcott

Jordan 191 wrote: »

I wonder which driver will have to make way for him.

Sauber are having an awful season. They have gone downhill since James Key and Matt Morris departed from the team.

Both, because apparently van der Garde will be joining Ericsson. He must have a fair amount of dough behind him because he hasn't looked good at all in the Caterham.

Did anyone read about Bernie's press conference in which he said he was probably to blame for Marussia and Caterham going into administration? Interesting move...I wonder what he's plotting.

Ghost Train

Ghost Train wrote: »

Has the sound of the cars topic been pushed out there by Bernie to distract or divert from the loss of cars on the grid

You're such a cynic.

Going Strong

Zcott wrote: »

Did anyone read about Bernie's press conference in which he said he was probably to blame for Marussia and Caterham going into administration? Interesting move...I wonder what he's plotting.

I think it's more that Bernie sees both teams (and HRT) as being Max Mosley's creation and nothing to do with him. He was rather disparaging of them when the notion of "Budget Teams" was brought up originally and I doubt he ever changed his mind. That and Caterham owe Bernie a fair amount in unpaid corporate hospitality bills.

That said, it comes across as typical Bernie, "Nothing to do with me mate, I only work here." The intransigence of the likes of Red Bull and Mercedes when it comes to helping the struggling teams allows Bernie to shrug his shoulders and say "What can you do? They signed a contract and they won't renegotiate." He's probably hoping that the likes of Sauber, Lotus and Force India can limp along until the season ends and then he'll try and sort them out with 'loose change' next year by inventing some new revenue stream in an attempt to hide the fact that it's a charitable handout. In other words, yet an other short-term, cobbled together, mish-mash that just kicks the can a bit further down the road - just like all his other deals. The same deals he's just came out and said were probably a bad idea looking back on them.

GarIT

Audi have hired Stefano Domenicali.

It doesn't prove anything but he is only really any use as a team principal.

seamusk84

It's an actual disaster for Formula 1. I remember watching and being massively impressed with Alonso in 2001 behind the wheel of a Minardi.
Where are tomorrow's champions going to cut their teeth now?
Not sure what Bernie is playing it but this is not in the interests of the sport. It's high time the teams all started getting an equal share of the pie.

Any more news on the potential race boycott by lotus/FI/sauber later?

Myrddin

GarIT wrote: »

Audi have hired Stefano Domenicali.

It doesn't prove anything but he is only really any use as a team principal.

Are there rumours about Audi coming into F1, & maybe an Alonso deal?

GarIT

Myrddin wrote: »

Are there rumours about Audi coming into F1, & maybe an Alonso deal?

There are rumors about Audi, haven't heard anything about Alonso. I've read that Audi have been working on a 1.6l turbo hybrid engine since 2010. That seems too early to be true but it could have been planned by Bernie that they would join.

Audi are also pulling out of other motorsports and letting Porsche take over.

GarIT

seamusk84 wrote: »

Any more news on the potential race boycott by lotus/FI/sauber later?

FI and Sauber have both said they have qualified too high to not race.

GarIT

Motorsport.com says Alonso is leaving F1 for 2015 unless he can get a 1 year contract, joining Audi in Le Mans and returning in 2016 as a driver for the Audi team.

Another site that I'm not sure if it's reputable says Red bull has agreed to sell Torro Rosso to Audi in return for free engines for RB for a few years. RBR's owner has strong ties with the Volkswagen group and its owners.