Dog owners opinions of meeting a puppy german shepherd of 1yr with no muzzle

DBB

Willmunny1990,
Any more smart-arsery is (a) going to earn the user a ban from the forum, and (b) going to get this thread shut down.
I am sick of asking people to be civil to one another, it is a requirement of the forum charter, and shouldn't have to be asked for again and again. Getting pissy with each other makes one look like a twat. So give over.
Do not reply to this post on thread.
Thanks,
DBB

juniord

willmunny1990 wrote: »

The Op walks a GSP without a muzzle and the issue is whether its ok to walk it without a muzzle, legally its supposed to be muzzled but the chances of a warden stopping you if the dog isnt posing a problem are quite small in most cases.

the issue is how other dog owners feel about meeting a gsp without a muzzle

DBB

juniord wrote: »

the issue is how other dog owners feel about meeting a gsp without a muzzle

Is a gsp not a German short haired pointer? Which don't need to be muzzled, so I assume it's meant to mean gsd?

juniord

DBB wrote: »

Is a gsp not a German short haired pointer? Which don't need to be muzzled, so I assume it's meant to mean gsd?

i was replying to the post which referred to gsp and took it to mean german shepherd puppy if shorthaired is spelled as above it becomes 2 words and gsp would then become gshp

DBB

juniord wrote: »

i was replying to the post which referred to gsp and took it to mean german shepherd puppy if shorthaired is spelled as above it becomes 2 words and gsp would then become gshp

Lol, yes, I had seen it referred to as a GSP in an earlier post to yours, but I was on my phone at the time and your post was just handy! So, not aimed at you
I've seen German Short Haired (Shorthaired?) Pointers abbreviated to GSP and GSHP (more commonly the former though), but I have never seen a GSD abbreviated to anything other than GSD, and I'm pretty sure mixing the two up would be universally misunderstood by doggy people and professionals.
I'm just drawing attention to it as anyone reading this in time to come may find it confusing that German Pointers need to be muzzled, when they don't

Allknowing

The right muzzle worn properly is perfectly humane. Dog bite, particularly from a large dog such as gsd can cause horrific damage. I imagine most people whose dog bit someone were horrified as my dog has never bitten someone before.
If you have a dog in a public area exercise responsibility and take this simple precaution.

Allknowing

VonVix wrote: »

There are people with preconceived ideas of certain dog breeds, and large ones can be intimidating no matter what. In my time working with dogs I have never met a german shepherd I had problems with. I judge a dog on its character, not its breed.

Of course there are German Shepherds with issues, same as all breeds.

borderlinemeath

Allknowing wrote: »

The right muzzle worn properly is perfectly humane. Dog bite, particularly from a large dog such as gsd can cause horrific damage. I imagine most people whose dog bit someone were horrified as my dog has never bitten someone before.
If you have a dog in a public area exercise responsibility and take this simple precaution.

It may be perfectly humane, but it doesn't make it right. Breed specific legislation punishes the breed, not the dog. My problem with a law deciding that certain breeds must be muzzled in public is that it renders them defenseless to another dog attacking it.

Allknowing

borderlinemeath wrote: »

It may be perfectly humane, but it doesn't make it right. Breed specific legislation punishes the breed, not the dog. My problem with a law deciding that certain breeds must be muzzled in public is that it renders them defenseless to another dog attacking it.

Two dogs biting each other will double the problem not half it.

I agree with you one the breed specific issue.....but....I do believe all dogs should be muzzle properly in public. This removes any confusion and imbalance.

Punishes the breed and not the dog you say. So do you think people should decide for themselves whether their dog should be wearing a muzzle? Recipe for disaster as the vast majority of people have zero knowledge of issues such as, dominance and aggression, etc.

billie1b

Kukey wrote: »

Yes I'm serious,he stopped me one day in his van and told me he could impound my dog for not wearing a muzzle,it was hanging around her neck and she was on the lead.
My friend was also told the same thing,he had no muzzle with him at the time.

Dog warden was spoofing you, they can not forcibly take your dog from you without a court order

borderlinemeath

Allknowing wrote: »

Two dogs biting each other will double the problem not half it.

So it's ok for one to savage the other because he can't even growl in defence??

I agree with you one the breed specific issue.....but....I do believe all dogs should be muzzle properly in public. This removes any confusion and imbalance.

So punish all dogs for the actions of a few? Absolutely ridiculous suggestion. Removing confusion?? You're removing the ability for a dog to be a dog, to socialize and meet other dogs, to sniff each other without a large inhibitive plastic muzzle, to sniff in ditches, lamposts. I presume your radical thinking also includes that all dogs should be on leads all the time rather than being allowed run off lead?

borderlinemeath

Allknowing wrote: »

Two dogs biting each other will double the problem not half it.

I agree with you one the breed specific issue.....but....I do believe all dogs should be muzzle properly in public. This removes any confusion and imbalance.

Punishes the breed and not the dog you say. So do you think people should decide for themselves whether their dog should be wearing a muzzle? Recipe for disaster as the vast majority of people have zero knowledge of issues such as, dominance and aggression, etc.

re your edit - there is no such thing as 'dominance'. You're reading too much old school, outdated, disproven training methods and theories. I'm afraid you might need to include yourself in that vast majority.

Allknowing

borderlinemeath wrote: »

re your edit - there is no such thing as 'dominance'. You're reading too much old school, outdated, disproven training methods and theories. I'm afraid you might need to include yourself in that vast majority.

Oh really? No such thing as dominance ??

What training methods did I allude to?

I have trained working German Shepherds for the last twenty years and while I have adjusted training techniques in that time, to say that dominance does not exist is utter twaddle. However to each their own.

Either way we were addressing muzzling.

borderlinemeath

Allknowing wrote: »

Oh really? No such thing as dominance ??

Absolutely not. Your putting a word that conjures up images of wolf pack behaviour theories onto domestic dog behaviour. You can have dogs that are harder to work with, harder to train, and may have some rescource guarding issues but to label them as dominant is incorrect.

What training methods did I allude to?

Actually, you didn't. But the word 'dominance' in the dog training world is synonymous with outdated training and that unqualified, 'whisperer' Cesar Milan and the like.

I have trained working German Shepherds for the last twenty years and while I have adjusted training techniques in that time, to say that dominance does not exist is utter twaddle. However to each their own.

Twaddle it is. Because it doesn't! I think you're mistaking behaviours for something that it isn't.

Either way we were addressing muzzling.

I'm actually a bit gobsmacked to hear that you've trained GSDs and you think all dogs should wear muzzles in public.

DBB

billie1b wrote: »

Dog warden was spoofing you, they can not forcibly take your dog from you without a court order

Did you not read the thread?
Twice I linked to the Control of Dogs Act 1986, Section 16(b), which says:

16.—(1) A dog warden may—
....

(b) seize any dog and detain it in order to ascertain whether an offence under this Act is being or has been committed and may enter any premises (other than a dwelling) for the purposes of such seizure and detention;

Here's a link to this Section of the Act, again:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1986/en/act/pub/0032/sec0016.html#sec16

DBB

Allknowing wrote: »

Oh really? No such thing as dominance ??

What training methods did I allude to?

I have trained working German Shepherds for the last twenty years and while I have adjusted training techniques in that time, to say that dominance does not exist is utter twaddle. However to each their own.

There is a fair chunk of empirical, scientific evidence to show that dominance hierarchies do not exist in dogs (a wolves in their natural state), and despite many, many attempts to find any peer-reviewed research that demonstrates that dominance hierarchies exist, I have yet to find any such evidence. Would you be good enough to link me to it please?
I'm particularly interested because I work with working GSDs too, yet I'm still waiting to see any evidence of dominance hierarchy in my work, so I'd just like to know why this anomaly exists.

billie1b

DBB wrote: »

Did you not read the thread?
Twice I linked to the Control of Dogs Act 1986, Section 16(b), which says:



Here's a link to this Section of the Act, again:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1986/en/act/pub/0032/sec0016.html#sec16

Ok its only a power to request, if they want to detain there and then they need an order to do it, if they see a stray on the street they can take it, if they see you and your dog walking along the street you can simply ignore them or even refuse the request, they can also only enter your premises with a warrant or court order

Allknowing

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I'm actually a bit gobsmacked to hear that you've trained GSDs and you think all dogs should wear muzzles in public.

Why would you be? My point for saying all dogs should be muzzled is because people all think that their dog should be the exception, for no other reason than it has never bitten anyone. My dogs wear muzzles in public and there is no issue because they are used to wearing them.

DBB

billie1b wrote: »

Ok its only a power to request, if they want to detain there and then they need an order to do it, if they see a stray on the street they can take it, if they see you and your dog walking along the street you can simply ignore them or even refuse the request, they can also only enter your premises with a warrant or court order

We're not talking about entering premises here.
And where in Section 16, paragraph (b) does it say anything about requesting to seize the dog? It says in paragraph (a) that the warden can request an owner's name and details, but that's paragraph (a). Paragraph (b), which deals with seizure of a dog, mentions nothing about requesting the seizure... in fact, requesting a seizure is somewhat of an oxymoron!

Allknowing

DBB wrote: »

There is a fair chunk of empirical, scientific evidence to show that dominance hierarchies do not exist in dogs (a wolves in their natural state), and despite many, many attempts to find any peer-reviewed research that demonstrates that dominance hierarchies exist, I have yet to find any such evidence. Would you be good enough to link me to it please?
I'm particularly interested because I work with working GSDs too, yet I'm still waiting to see any evidence of dominance hierarchy in my work, so I'd just like to know why this anomaly exists.

Sorry if I misunderstand, but are you saying there are no dominant dogs?

Allknowing

DBB wrote: »

There is a fair chunk of empirical, scientific evidence to show that dominance hierarchies do not exist in dogs (a wolves in their natural state), and despite many, many attempts to find any peer-reviewed research that demonstrates that dominance hierarchies exist, I have yet to find any such evidence. Would you be good enough to link me to it please?
I'm particularly interested because I work with working GSDs too, yet I'm still waiting to see any evidence of dominance hierarchy in my work, so I'd just like to know why this anomaly exists.

Btw, did you not previously warn on this thread about straying off topic? :-)

biko

Maybe one of these?

borderlinemeath

Allknowing wrote: »

Why would you be? My point for saying all dogs should be muzzled is because people all think that their dog should be the exception, for no other reason than it has never bitten anyone. My dogs wear muzzles in public and there is no issue because they are used to wearing them.

But the vast, vast majority of dogs don't bite anyone. So why punish everybody for the actions of a few? For a trainer to have a blanket assumption and see the worst in dogs and their owners wouldn't exactly fill me with confidence.

DBB

Allknowing wrote: »

Sorry if I misunderstand, but are you saying there are no dominant dogs?

I am saying that a dominance hierarchy as a method for creating social order does not exist between dogs.
That is not to be confused with the fact that, like humans, some individual dogs can be more pushy than others, but it is accepted now that pushiness is not motivated by a bid for dominance/world leadership, rather it is motivated by retention of access to valued resources... keeping something you want to keep because you value it (often in quite a broad sense).
Some people might interchange the word "dominant" in place of "pushy" here, in which case it's simple semantics (the word "dominant" has become a tad poisoned in doggy circles!). But if a person calls a dog "dominant" because they mean it is trying to climb some perceived ladder of social importance, then they are mistaken.
Many humans are pushy too... yet nobody attempts to suggest they're being dominant, nor that they are trying to climb some social hierarchy.
Have you had a look at www.dogwelfarecampaign.org? It probably explains things better than I do!

Here's the page on the above site which brings you through it all:
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

Some more articles written by behavioural scientists and qualified applied behavioural practitioners which help to explain:
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/caninedominance

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

DBB

Allknowing wrote: »

Btw, did you not previously warn on this thread about straying off topic? :-)

Btw, are you back-seat moderating? :-)

And no, there is no mod-warning on this thread asking people to stay on-topic, by me or any other mod :-)

Allknowing

borderlinemeath wrote: »

But the vast, vast majority of dogs don't bite anyone. So why punish everybody for the actions of a few? For a trainer to have a blanket assumption and see the worst in dogs and their owners wouldn't exactly fill me with confidence.

How are you punishing the dog by putting on a muzzle? I fully realise that most dogs have not nor will bite anybody. Unfortunately there are some dogs that are aggressive towards people and more that are aggressive towards other animals. Very few dogs have any form of training or proper socialization etc. Therefore where individual responsibility fails legislation has to be introduced and that can only work of it is enforced in black and white way across the board. Muzzels seem to bother owners more than the dog in my opinion.

Allknowing

DBB wrote: »

Btw, are you back-seat moderating? :-)

And no, there is no mod-warning on this thread asking people to stay on-topic, by me or any other mod :-)

Oops, you didn't either. Humblest apologies Sir. :-)

DBB

Allknowing wrote: »

Oops, you didn't either. Humblest apologies Sir. :-)

M'lady will suffice

ps I did have to check though!

borderlinemeath

Allknowing wrote: »

How are you punishing the dog by putting on a muzzle? I fully realise that most dogs have not nor will bite anybody. Unfortunately there are some dogs that are aggressive towards people and more that are aggressive towards other animals. Very few dogs have any form of training or proper socialization etc. Therefore where individual responsibility fails legislation has to be introduced and that can only work of it is enforced in black and white way across the board. Muzzels seem to bother owners more than the dog in my opinion.

I never said it was a punishment, I said it was inhibitive. It inhibits a dog with socialization, and letting a dog being a dog. Do you let your dogs enjoy a walk or do they plod along beside you like a robot dog? I like my dogs to enjoy life, enjoy their walks, they run and pant profusely off lead, play and mouth with other dogs, something impossible with a muzzle on.

Again you're assuming the worst - that owners of human aggressive and canine aggressive dogs are oblivious to their dogs lack of social skills. And again, for a trainer to have the opinion that further restrictive legislation needs introducing on all dogs would lead me to have no confidence in said trainer - lets just muzzle all dogs, it would make the trainers life easier - treat the symptoms and not find the cause of the problem.

Allknowing

DBB wrote: »

M'lady will suffice

ps I did have to check though!

Oops again