IKC breeding ethics

TomeeTipee

Hi, I was looking at the code of ethics for breeding from the Irish Kennel Club. One of the rules states that in any 3 year period no more than 3 litters should be born to any bitch. I always thought that the rule was a bitch could not have more than 1 litter within 12 months.

Does anyone know if this 3 litters in 3 years rule has replaced the 1 litter in 12 month rule? Surely this is a step backwards in promoting responsible breeding? Under this rule, in theory a bitch could have 3 litters in consectutive heats and this would be allowed! Are the IKC allowing the registration of puppies under these conditions?

Lemlin

TomeeTipee wrote: »

Hi, I was looking at the code of ethics for breeding from the Irish Kennel Club. One of the rules states that in any 3 year period no more than 3 litters should be born to any bitch. I always thought that the rule was a bitch could not have more than 1 litter within 12 months.

Does anyone know if this 3 litters in 3 years rule has replaced the 1 litter in 12 month rule? Surely this is a step backwards in promoting responsible breeding? Under this rule, in theory a bitch could have 3 litters in consectutive heats and this would be allowed! Are the IKC allowing the registration of puppies under these conditions?

Yes, the rules have been changed to make it even easier for puppy farmers.

In all honesty, I don't think it can be said that the IKC do promote responsible breeding.

Have a look here:

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057109101/1/#post88140365

As per that thread, I've yet to hear of the IKC refusing to register a pup, once the appropriate fee is paid of course.

I'd actually suggest this thread is merged with mine and have requested it.

TomeeTipee

Lemlin wrote: »

Yes, the rules have been changed to make it even easier for puppy farmers.

In all honesty, I don't think it can be said that the IKC do promote responsible breeding.

Have a look here:

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057109101/1/#post88140365

As per that thread, I've yet to hear of the IKC refusing to register a pup, once the appropriate fee is paid of course.

I'd actually suggest this thread is merged with mine and have requested it.

Lemlin, didn't realise that you had started a similar thread. I agree, it seems to be even easier for puppy farmers to register their pups & indeed it has to be asked what the point of registration actually is.

Lemlin

TomeeTipee wrote: »

Lemlin, didn't realise that you had started a similar thread. I agree, it seems to be even easier for puppy farmers to register their pups & indeed it has to be asked what the point of registration actually is.

As I said on my thread, in my opinion registration has now become a vehicle which makes it easier for puppy farmers to sell poorly bred puppies.

People see "IKC registration" and think they are getting some supposed guarantee pf quality that they are in fact not getting.

Knine

Lemlin wrote: »

People see "IKC registration" and think they are getting some supposed guarantee pf quality that they are in fact not getting.

Really?

I can assure you people buying my IKC reg. puppies are getting top quality. Broad sweeping statement there Lemlin.

The key is to find a reputable breeder.

Toulouse

Yes Knine but that fact is everything to do with you and nothing to do with the IKC!

The point is that people see IKC reg. and think they are getting some kind of guarantee that their pup has been ethically and well bred. If they don't (and many don't) know much about sourcing a well bred pup then they can be blind to the fact that an IKC registration does not automatically mean that they're getting a pup from a reputable breeder.

Knine

Toulouse wrote: »

Yes Knine but that fact is everything to do with you and nothing to do with the IKC!

The point is that people see IKC reg. and think they are getting some kind of guarantee that their pup has been ethically and well bred. If they don't (and many don't) know much about sourcing a well bred pup then they can be blind to the fact that an IKC registration does not automatically mean that they're getting a pup from a reputable breeder.

There are lots of reputable breeders in Ireland. If you do a search on Lemlin's posts you will see he does not IKC reg his pups but his statement above does not mention anything about IKC reputable breeders of which there are plenty.

Own agenda comes to mind.

jimf

there is no doubt most breeders reg with the ikc are above board and highly reputable

but what I see as the main problem with the ikc is they can see who is overbreeding their bitches and yet take no action to stop them

action I mean refuse to register their pups surely somebody registering 2 litters pa from the same bitch must raise a red flag

Lemlin

Knine wrote: »

There are lots of reputable breeders in Ireland. If you do a search on Lemlin's posts you will see he does not IKC reg his pups but his statement above does not mention anything about IKC reputable breeders of which there are plenty.

Own agenda comes to mind.

Again, you are incorrect. Please check my posts. I register my pups if the new owners wish for them to be registered. My Labrador had nine pups. 5 were registered, 4 were not.

As I've previously said, 4 of the new owners had no wish to have their pups registered as they were being kept as pets and they have no wish to breed or show them. They were of course given 4 generation pedigree certs for both parents.

I've gone through all if this before so I'd appreciate if you could therefore withdraw the false allegations you have posted above.

Of course, there are plenty of reputable breeders. I'm not disputing that. My point is the IKC should be doing more to stop the puppy farmers and direct people to the reputable breeders. There are far more backyard breeders and puppy farmers than reputable breeders. We both know that.

IKC registration proves nothing.

Lemlin

jimf wrote: »

there is no doubt most breeders reg with the ikc are above board and highly reputable

but what I see as the main problem with the ikc is they can see who is overbreeding their bitches and yet take no action to stop them

action I mean refuse to register their pups surely somebody registering 2 litters pa from the same bitch must raise a red flag

As I said on the other thread, I know a local backyard breeder who had pups available at the end of last year, during the Summer and now again off the one bitch. All have been advertised as "IKC registered".

I spoke to the IKC myself about this man on behalf of someone who unfortunately bought a pup from him and they couldn't have cared less.

Like I said, had anyone ever heard of them refusing to register a pup when the fee is paid?

DBB

This thread is in danger of rehashing arguments which have already resulted in threads being closed in the past.
Can I please ask that everyone makes their points politely and with some level of respect? You don't have to agree with each other, but you do need to be civil.
Besides which, this is an opportunity to educate people.... Bickering turns people off.
Do not reply to this post on thread.
Thanks,
DBB

jimf

Lemlin wrote: »

Again, you are incorrect. Please check my posts. I register my pups if the new owners wish for them to be registered. My Labrador had nine pups. 5 were registered, 4 were not.

As I've previously said, 4 of the new owners had no wish to have their pups registered as they were being kept as pets and they have no wish to breed or show them. They were of course given 4 generation pedigree certs for both parents.

I've gone through all if this before so I'd appreciate if you could therefore withdraw the false allegations you have posted above.

Of course, there are plenty of reputable breeders. I'm not disputing that. My point is the IKC should be doing more to stop the puppy farmers and direct people to the reputable breeders. There are far more backyard breeders and puppy farmers than reputable breeders. We both know that.


IKC registration proves nothing.

lemlin slightly off topic

would you mind advising what discounts people asked/expected for not wanting their pups registered

the last time i had pups for sale ess was about 5 years ago had the pups advertised for sale at 350eu yet people expected me sell for 150 because they didn't want them registered all pups were registered the 150 brigade were sent packing with a flea in their ears because you can just imagine the way those pups were going to be treated
not suggesting you sold your pups to uncaring buyers now or anything of the sort just the mentality of the way some of these people think

god help them if they only knew the way I interrogate prospective buyers they wouldn't even ask in the first place

Lemlin

jimf wrote: »

lemlin slightly off topic

would you mind advising what discounts people asked/expected for not wanting their pups registered

the last time i had pups for sale ess was about 5 years ago had the pups advertised for sale at 350eu yet people expected me sell for 150 because they didn't want them registered all pups were registered the 150 brigade were sent packing with a flea in their ears because you can just imagine the way those pups were going to be treated
not suggesting you sold your pups to uncaring buyers now or anything of the sort just the mentality of the way some of these people think

god help them if they only knew the way I interrogate prospective buyers they wouldn't even ask in the first place

Unregistered pups were sold for €50 less which is the cost of registration. It's €20 for microchipping and €20 for registration. I actually offered to get the microchipping done at first inoculation for the €20 if people wished it but most said they'd get their pup microchipped themselves at the 12 week inoculation.

I started giving people the choice because when I originally bred Springers years ago alot of hunting men often did not want the papers. They were buying the dogs to train for retrieving.

All people were told though that they just need to contact me if they wish to register at a later date. All buyers have my full details and were given puppy packs and a contract.

Tbh this is a thread about the worth of IKC registration and the user above is trying to derail the thread by posting a mistruth to drag it off topic. The fact is I do register my pups and Knine is well aware of that. I've explained it to her on numerous occasions.

The main reason I don't register all pups is because I believe in giving people a choice. For me, IKC registration proves nothing and I've yet to see anyone give a valid purpose that it actually serves.

In the UK for example, the health screening of the parents is put on the papers. That isn't even done here though.

As I've also said, I've never heard of the IKC declining to register a dog. Has anyone?

The user above comments about reputable breeders. What exactly is the IKC doing to promote reputable breeders I'd ask?

TomeeTipee

jimf wrote: »

there is no doubt most breeders reg with the ikc are above board and highly reputable

but what I see as the main problem with the ikc is they can see who is overbreeding their bitches and yet take no action to stop them

action I mean refuse to register their pups surely somebody registering 2 litters pa from the same bitch must raise a red flag

I agree with this. I am not a breeder by the way, but have owned and loved many dogs over the years. I'm always really careful about who I buy my dogs from and I have come across many excellent, caring and reputable IKC breeders.

Unfortunately, I've also come across puppy farmers who, despite over breeding, are still able to register their pups with the IKC. For new and inexperienced would be dog owners, some seem to think that since the pups are IKC registered, they couldnt possibly be from puppy farms. These kind of "breeders" are giving the good breeders a bad name and it would be great if the IKC was stricter about registering pups. Surely this would be welcomed by reputable breeders, as it wouldnt change anything for them, but would make it more difficult for puppy farmers.

I just dont understand why, when the UK kennel club is tightening their rules (e.g. no more than 4 litters per bitch in a lifetime), that the irish kennel club appears to be relaxing their rules, as per my OP.