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central heating banging

  • 26-12-2013 2:18pm
    #1
    hallo dare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭


    HI folks,

    turned on the external oil burner this morning while the stove (with back boiler) was lit, first time having both on together . after a few minutes, water came from the overflow tank in the attic, via the overflow pipes outside and then the pipework from the stove to the cylinder started banging. There's no air in the system as far as i am aware anyway!

    Can anyone help me out on this one?
    Thanks


Comments

  • #2
    Billy Bunting
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭Billy Bunting


    What is the oil boiler thermostat set at ?


  • #3
    hallo dare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭hallo dare


    Billy Bunting wrote: »
    What is the oil boiler thermostat set at ?

    the stat on the boiler itself has no numbers (firebird, condenser boiler) but little lines going from narrow to thick, its at the narrowest mark.


  • #4
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,840 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    hallo dare wrote: »
    the stat on the boiler itself has no numbers (firebird, condenser boiler) but little lines going from narrow to thick, its at the narrowest mark.

    Any banging with the stove only ?


  • #5
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,840 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    A few pics of the pipework in the hot press too if you can. Try include pumps, cylinder, thermostat, and pipes from the stove


  • #6
    hallo dare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭hallo dare


    Dtp1979 wrote: »
    Any banging with the stove only ?

    no, nothing from either on their own, only when stove lit and warmed up and then when i give the oil a dart. There's a stat inthe hotpress for the stove set for 45 wwhich is doing the job for the circulation pump as it heats the rads no hassle.


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  • #7
    hallo dare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭hallo dare


    pic 1,the slim pipes are those for the oil, the fatter ones are the stoves pipes with the stat attached on pic2 to the flow pipe.


  • #8
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    It's a piping issue. Pumps are pulling against each other & the oil pump is winning.
    You will have to re-pipe correctly or only run one at a time.


  • #9
    hallo dare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭hallo dare


    shane0007 wrote: »
    It's a piping issue. Pumps are pulling against each other & the oil pump is winning.
    You will have to re-pipe correctly or only run one at a time.
    ah balls


  • #10
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    You also need to move the stat to the flow pipe of the stove as close as possible to the stove itself.
    At the moment it's on the return & too far from the stove.


  • #11
    hallo dare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭hallo dare


    shane0007 wrote: »
    You also need to move the stat to the flow pipe of the stove as close as possible to the stove itself.
    At the moment it's on the return & too far from the stove.

    That's really as close as i can get, should i move it to the flow pipe regardless. Bloody cowboy that done this place!


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  • #12
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,840 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    hallo dare wrote: »
    That's really as close as i can get, should i move it to the flow pipe regardless. Bloody cowboy that done this place!

    Yes it should be on the flow. There should be that gate valve there either. Is that a pressuried cylinder?


  • #13
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    The problem will be you will get creep heat from the cylinder when the oil boiler is on. This will switch on the solid fuel pump & dump the heat from the cylinder.

    You will have to find a closer position on the flow at the back boiler.


  • #14
    hallo dare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭hallo dare


    Dtp1979 wrote: »
    Yes it should be on the flow. There should be that gate valve there either. Is that a pressuried cylinder?

    Just looked there again, the stat is on the flow pipe (bottom) and the return is on the top, and yes, that's a gate valve on the return.


  • #15
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,840 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    hallo dare wrote: »
    Just looked there again, the stat is on the flow pipe (bottom) and the return is on the top, and yes, that's a gate valve on the return.

    There should be no valves on the primary circuit of solid fuel. Where is the pump located.?? I hate those upside down coils on cylinders. If that cylinder is pressurised then you have another problem


  • #16
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    hallo dare wrote: »
    Just looked there again, the stat is on the flow pipe (bottom) and the return is on the top, and yes, that's a gate valve on the return.

    Why do you think that?


  • #17
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,840 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Why do you think that?

    On them cylinders Shane, the flow is marked on the bottom and return on top


  • #18
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Dtp1979 wrote: »
    On them cylinders Shane, the flow is marked on the bottom and return on top

    Oh I know that. Was just trying to establish for sure it was one of those or piped wrong.


  • #19
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,840 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Oh I know that. Was just trying to establish for sure it was one of those or piped wrong.

    Ah rite ok


  • #20
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Dtp1979 wrote: »
    Ah rite ok

    It might not be one of those. Coil connections could be beside each other. Flow on left, return on right.


  • #21
    hallo dare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭hallo dare


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Why do you think that?

    That's written on the tank, how do i tell if it's pressuried system?


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  • #22
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Do you have a make & model of the cylinder?
    Does the pipe beside the return on the left say Flow?


  • #23
    hallo dare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭hallo dare


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Do you have a make & model of the cylinder?
    Does the pipe beside the return on the left say Flow?

    sorry, no make or model for you. nothing marked on the pipework you're asking about, as far as the sort of system i have, i have a cold water tank and a small tank in the attic.


  • #24
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,840 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    hallo dare wrote: »
    That's written on the tank, how do i tell if it's pressuried system?

    Is there a large pump before the cylinder somewhere? Possibly in hot press, attic or garage. There should also be a blue or white expansion vessel. Around the size of a large soccer ball


  • #25
    hallo dare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭hallo dare


    Dtp1979 wrote: »
    Is there a large pump before the cylinder somewhere? Possibly in hot press, attic or garage. There should also be a blue or white expansion vessel. Around the size of a large soccer ball

    yep, pump is downstairs. The expansion vesswl is in the hotpress just above the tank. Sorry, should have shown that in the pics.


  • #26
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,840 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    hallo dare wrote: »
    yep, pump is downstairs. The expansion vesswl is in the hotpress just above the tank. Sorry, should have shown that in the pics.

    Well in my opinion that's your biggest problem. You should never have a solid fuel gravity coil linked into a pressurised cylinder


  • #27
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    There are many issues.
    Firstly & most importantly you have an uncontrollable heat source going into a pressurised cylinder which is potentially dangerous enough to remove half your house.
    Secondly, you have a cylinder that is not suitable for solid fuel. You do not even have a gravity coil.
    Along with piping issues, I'm afraid the prognosis is not good. The patient is very sick & required surgery to remedy!
    The surgery will also be very expensive.


  • #28
    hallo dare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭hallo dare


    shane0007 wrote: »
    There are many issues.
    Firstly & most importantly you have an uncontrollable heat source going into a pressurised cylinder which is potentially dangerous enough to remove half your house.
    Secondly, you have a cylinder that is not suitable for solid fuel. You do not even have a gravity coil.
    Along with piping issues, I'm afraid the prognosis is not good. The patient is very sick & required surgery to remedy!
    The surgery will also be very expensive.


    Balls, best get someone to have a look so. Cheers for that!


  • #29
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,840 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    Also OP in case it's not obvious don't use your solid fuel until rectified.


  • #30
    hallo dare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭hallo dare


    shane0007 wrote: »
    There are many issues.
    Firstly & most importantly you have an uncontrollable heat source going into a pressurised cylinder which is potentially dangerous enough to remove half your house.
    Secondly, you have a cylinder that is not suitable for solid fuel. You do not even have a gravity coil.
    Along with piping issues, I'm afraid the prognosis is not good. The patient is very sick & required surgery to remedy!
    The surgery will also be very expensive.

    just going through your points there again shane, maybe im picking you up wrong, but is the tank considered pressurised even though it has a pressure release valve at the top of it and an expansion vessel. and there are F+E tanks in the attic? also, what's a gravity coil? Thanks for all, but just curious for my own sake.


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  • #31
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    http://systemlink.ie/products-59/heat-genie.html


  • #32
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    hallo dare wrote: »
    just going through your points there again shane, maybe im picking you up wrong, but is the tank considered pressurised even though it has a pressure release valve at the top of it and an expansion vessel. and there are F+E tanks in the attic? also, what's a gravity coil? Thanks for all, but just curious for my own sake.

    Probably a bit difficult to explain on a forum.
    You have a pump pumping pressure into the cylinder. Under pressure, boiling point is raised. At 1 bar BP is raised to 123C. 2 bar 144C, etc.
    If you uncontrollable heat source boils the cylinder, it will not turn to steam but is above 100C. Then you open a tap, reducing the pressure to atmosphere. 300 litres of water flashes to 300 x 1600 litres of steam & explodes the cylinder. All this because if the safety features of the cylinder fail or are not fitted correctly.
    You just cannot fit solid fuel to a pressurised cylinder.

    Not even a system link!


  • #33
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    A gravity coil is minimum 1" in diameter & the flow enters the cylinder higher than & continuously falling to the return connection of the cylinder.

    You could fit a breaker cylinder & an additional pump if you had room. This would overcome all issues.


  • #34
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    shane0007 wrote: »

    You could fit a breaker cylinder & an additional pump if you had room. This would overcome all issues.

    Isn't that what this product is specifically for ? :

    http://systemlink.ie/products-59/heat-genie.html


    The "stove side" is unpressurised - the boiler side is pressurised


  • #35
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Isn't that what this product is specifically for ? :

    http://systemlink.ie/products-59/heat-genie.html


    The "stove side" is unpressurised - the boiler side is pressurised
    No. It's for solid fuel into a pressurised heating system, not a pressurised cylinder. The two are very different & must have very different safety parameters.


  • #36
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    off-topic-ish but useful for anyone looking through this thread in the future


    That'd be the expansion ....



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  • #37
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    gctest50 wrote: »
    off-topic-ish but useful for anyone looking through this thread in the future


    That'd be the expansion ....

    It's a great example but I would prefer if they done it with heat rather than pressure. That blew at 25 bar pressure. There would be nothing in a domestic situation that could get a cylinder to 25 bar pressure. If it blew from temperature & flash steam it would have been much more dramatic. It would also only require a pressure of only less than 1 bar pressure and all pressurised hot water systems would be at approx 2.5 - 3.5 bar pressure.


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