Zlatan with some real talk about women's footy

Antifa161

Players in the men's national football team deserve to get more recognition than their female counterparts in Sweden and people should stop whipping up a gender storm about it, striker Zlatan Ibrahimovic has said. His comments have sparked disappointment from Pia Sundhage, the coach of the Swedish women's national team, who branded them 'boring' and 'sad'.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/dec/26/zlatan-ibrahimovic-branded-boring-sad-womens-football-remarks


Now I'm all for equal rights but the pandering to women's football of late has been quite pathetic/amusing. The BBC frequently try and trick people into reading stories about it by dressing them up as if it's the men's game and you see games televised that are miles behind Conference tier games in both quality and following.

That said, the woman who broke her respective scoring record does deserve some level of recognition and I can see why people might feel she was snubbed.

All Ibra's points are spot on though, and the women's coach makes a right arse of it with her closing comment there. "We're doing the exact same thing.... but don't compare us!".

Kerrigooney

Zlatan is a class A,gold plated troll. I wouldn't take anything he says too seriously.

Soft Falling Rain

Antifa161 wrote: »

you see games televised that are miles behind Conference tier games in both quality and following.

I don't know about that, I've seen some women run absolute rings around their male counterparts. I don't find it hard to believe at all that a good women's side would be able to put it up to a conference team.

I remember there being a thread in AH about whether Katie Taylor would able to compete with an amatuer male equivalent, it was an interesting read.

Too Tough To Die

I find him quite tiresome but can't really disagree with him on this issue.

Milkers

Most discussion of women's sport that involves comparison with the men's version is both stating the obvious and missing the point.

Oranage2

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

I don't know about that, I've seen some women run absolute rings around their male counterparts. I don't find it hard to believe at all that a good women's side would be able to put it up to a conference team.

I remember there being a thread in AH about whether Katie Taylor would able to compete with an amatuer male equivalent, it was an interesting read.

Not a chance, skill wise maybe, physically and athletic wise, men would destroy women every time in a game of football.

Chancer3001

I got warned last time i said that me and my buddies would beat the best women's soccer team.

I'm not trolling and maybe I'm miles off. But that's what I believe.

I've watched a decent bit of women's soccer and the general standard is terrible.

The American team does have a class keeper though!

Xavi6

Chancer3001 wrote: »

I got warned last time i said that me and my buddies would beat the best women's soccer team.

What standard are you and your buddies at?

If you're just a bunch of lads who enjoy a kick about on a Sunday then there isn't a chance you would.

Chancer3001

Yeah decent Sunday league standard.one or two very good Sunday league standard.

That's about the level I've seen in the women's games I've watched.

9/10 of us would be faster stronger than all of them too.

Xavi6

Decent Sunday league standard wouldn't be anywhere near good enough technically to match them, they would just pass and move around you.

Take it from someone who watches international women's players every second week and has played against them (I also play at a good Sunday league standard).

Chancer3001

I don't know.

I've watched a good bit too and the technique always looks very very poor.

Xavi6

I had the same impression as you until I played against some Australian internationals. They ran rings around the team I was on, and had no problem getting stuck in.

Try organise a game against one of Ireland's top club sides, see how you go

ush

I've seen some of the Swedish ladies team train at my gym. That is all.

Oranage2

Xavi6 wrote: »

I had the same impression as you until I played against some Australian internationals. They ran rings around the team I was on, and had no problem getting stuck in.

Try organise a game against one of Ireland's top club sides, see how you go

Was this 5 a side or a full sized pitch for 90 minutes?

Xavi6

Oranage2 wrote: »

Was this 5 a side or a full sized pitch for 90 minutes?

Both, though not 90 minutes. If anything, it would be more difficult over a longer period given they're semi professional athletes and fatigue would be more of a factor.

GreeBo

You see the same arguments in rugby, local team reckons they would destroy any top level ladies team.
Sure the men are stronger but the professional skill level means that you just don't get near the ball. They pass and run rings around you and you look like clowns.

AdamD

GreeBo wrote: »

You see the same arguments in rugby, local team reckons they would destroy any top level ladies team.
Sure the men are stronger but the professional skill level means that you just don't get near the ball. They pass and run rings around you and you look like clowns.

Sorry but no, in Rugby the physicality would win every time. They frankly wouldn't be quick enough to run rings around the mens team. In Football they could move the mens team around with quick passing etc. but not in Rugby.

Seaneh

GreeBo wrote: »

You see the same arguments in rugby, local team reckons they would destroy any top level ladies team.
Sure the men are stronger but the professional skill level means that you just don't get near the ball. They pass and run rings around you and you look like clowns.

As a teenager I played in games at training/ just for the mess against womens teams which included a few irish internationals and we, a bunch of 17 - 18 year olds all looked head an shoulders above the Irish international girls.

They had decent hands but that was about it. Some of them didn't even have that.

Seaneh

And, btw, everything Zlatan said is spot on.

Getting 147 caps for the mens team is far more of an achievement than getting 184 for the womens team.

Women often break into the first team at 16 or 17 and carry on playing until they are in their late 30's.

Men break in a lot later and retire a lot earlier in general and have far, far more and much higher standard competition.

Mars Bar

I'm not even going to bother!

Xavi6

Seaneh wrote: »

And, btw, everything Zlatan said is spot on.

Getting 147 caps for the mens team is far more of an achievement than getting 184 for the womens team.

Women often break into the first team at 16 or 17 and carry on playing until they are in their late 30's.

Men break in a lot later and retire a lot earlier in general and have far, far more and much higher standard competition.

Not necessarily. Women tend to retire a lot earlier than men, most in their mid to late 20s because with age comes more responsibility. They aren't professionals so a career is important and many want to start families.

In the most recent Australia squad, as an example, there were only six players aged 25 or older out of 23. The domestic league follows a similar pattern in terms of the make up of teams.

While that's just one example off the top of my head, I think it's similar for most other countries too.

micks

Xavi6 wrote: »

I had the same impression as you until I played against some Australian internationals. They ran rings around the team I was on, and had no problem getting stuck in.

Try organise a game against one of Ireland's top club sides, see how you go

I have seen one of the top club sides in this country play against schoolboy teams over the last 4 years
Its been the same trend with different age group (of boys) against senior Ladies team with lots of current and past internationals
vs U14 Boys - Ladies win comfortably
vs U15 Boys - Close games either draw or goal either way
vs U16 Boys - Boys win comfortably


The boys teams would be decent schoolboys teams but by no means top

GreeBo

AdamD wrote: »

Sorry but no, in Rugby the physicality would win every time. They frankly wouldn't be quick enough to run rings around the mens team. In Football they could move the mens team around with quick passing etc. but not in Rugby.

Physicality doesn't win rugby matches any more than football matches, otherwise the islanders would be be best in the world.

Also, saying that women can't be quick enough run around men is just silly. Speed is speed, sure the world record is held by a man, but it's only 1s faster than the women's record.

GTR63

"I was asked [by Swedish media] in the summer who was the better player, me or [Sweden striker] Lotta Schelin. You're joking with me, right? When I've broken all these records, this goal record, the goals in the national team, who shall I compare it to? Shall I compare it to whoever has the record, or the ladies?"

In fairness :pac: :pac: :pac:

Chancer3001

I've seen u16 Gaelic football teams destroy the best women's gaa county teams.

Somebody else has seen it in soccer.

It's going t be the same in most team games.
Once lads get to 16/17 they're going to be ahead of the women's teams.

Even the women's World Cup isn't that high a standard.

I'm probably going to get banned, but just being honest!!

EuropeanSon

Chancer3001 wrote: »

I've seen u16 Gaelic football teams destroy the best women's gaa county teams.

Somebody else has seen it in soccer.

It's going t be the same in most team games.
Once lads get to 16/17 they're going to be ahead of the women's teams.

Even the women's World Cup isn't that high a standard.

I'm probably going to get banned, but just being honest!!

There's a vast difference between the best amateur players in a county and the best professional players in the world. Silly comparison.

Xavi seems to have actually seen good women's teams regularly, so I'll trust his opinion on this one.

Certainly I'd say the German national women's team would batter most non professional men's teams.

Chancer3001

http://www.thelocal.se/20130116/45646

This might help some people see things clearer.

The aik club team, under17 boys team, 15 and 16 year olds,who took out a defender and played with 10 men, beat the senior women's national Swedish team 3-0.....that's a boys club team against a national team.

ArmaniJeanss

Chancer3001 wrote: »

http://www.thelocal.se/20130116/45646

This might help some people see things clearer.

The aik club team, under17 boys team, 15 and 16 year olds,who took out a defender and played with 10 men, beat the senior women's national Swedish team 3-0.....that's a boys club team against a national team.

Thats fairly meaningless though, in much the same way as Cardiff beating Man City a few weeks ago isn't a sign that Cardiff are better than Man City.

If the Swedish womens team play regularly against local U-X boys teams in a training set-up then they are occasionally going to get beaten and its this result which will hit the papers. And I assume they do play such games regularly (like the US womens team who play 20+ such fixtures a year) as it makes more sense than organising international friendlies most of which they'd crush.

Chancer3001

American women team lost 8-2 to the u17 team...

They play against boys because they want to play against better opposition. Improve themselves that way.

The fact they are playing against 15 and 16 year olds tells it's own story.

ArmaniJeanss

Chancer3001 wrote: »

American women team lost 8-2 to the u17 team...

Like thats my point, you (or a like-minded individual) highlighted that 8-2 result during the last World Cup as proof of something or other.

Yet the US Womens team play such fixtures all the time, close to a weekly basis apparently, as otherwise their competitive games would be limited to neverending friendlies against Canada. But that 8-2 defeat is the only result that makes the papers. Which to me implies that its the serious outlier.

Xavi6

Chancer3001 wrote: »

http://www.thelocal.se/20130116/45646

This might help some people see things clearer.

The aik club team, under17 boys team, 15 and 16 year olds,who took out a defender and played with 10 men, beat the senior women's national Swedish team 3-0.....that's a boys club team against a national team.

That's a team of future professionals. Indeed, some of them would be playing top level football within a couple of years.

Your claim that you and a group of other Sunday leaguers "would beat the best women's soccer team" is a million miles from that and simply not true.

Chancer3001

How do you know they happen every week??

Show me any other result!?

What really hampers women's soccer is having the same size goals. Hope solo , probably the greatest ever women's keeper is 2 inches taller than Messi...

Chancer3001

Xavi6 wrote: »

That's a team of future professionals. Indeed, some of them would be playing top level football within a couple of years.

Your claim that you and a group of other Sunday leaguers "would beat the best women's soccer team" is a million miles from that and simply not true.

But they are 15 year old boys...size matters such a. Huge amount at that level that a much much worse group of 18 year old boys would hammer them.

Xavi6

Chancer3001 wrote: »

But they are 15 year old boys...size matters such a. Huge amount at that level that a much much worse group of 18 year old boys would hammer them.

The 15/16 year olds would hammer your team too, by more.

I think you're putting way too much emphasis on strength/size and not enough on technical ability. Those academy teams aren't winning because they're bigger, it's because they are better footballers.

In a sliding scale - academy teams >>>>> the best women's teams >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your average Sunday league teams

Chancer3001

Nah totally disagree.

The 15 year olds wouldn't hammer us. We'd beat them.

A much much worse senior team will beat a kids team.

A kids team 15+ will beat a women's team.

Show me any example of a women's team doing well against boys teams?

ush

The conversation shouldn't be about the differences between the womens and mens game. Zlatan's comments were directed against fellow professionals.

Swedish media are saying that he was planning the comments for the past month. Anders Svensson received a car as an award for his cap record a while back. Therese Sjögran, who has most caps for the ladies, didn't. Thats the background.

Also there was an interview during last week; Swedish reporter Johanna Frändén interviewed Laurnet Blanc. Blanc patronised her about her knowledge of the game.

So maybe there's a bigger aspect to this. Zlatan is maybe trying to comment on Sweden's sense of gender equality. Which is unfortunate. He's bigger and more gracious than this. He's proven it plenty of times. I suspect he'll honestly regret this.

BNMC

You're wrong here Zavi6. I played LSL for a season, we played the Irish Ladies U21 team. We beat them 13-0 and that was only 30 minutes a half. They had that keeper that plays with Arsenal (Emma Byrne?) in goals and she was hopeless. They are so slow compared to men.

TBH I was actually shocked by how bad they were. To be fair though, they have a lot of skill but that's the only area they could compete with men.

Antifa161

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

I don't know about that, I've seen some women run absolute rings around their male counterparts. I don't find it hard to believe at all that a good women's side would be able to put it up to a conference team.

I remember there being a thread in AH about whether Katie Taylor would able to compete with an amatuer male equivalent, it was an interesting read.

Every time this argument ceases to be hypothetical, it is proved entirely wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_women%27s_national_football_team
The German women’s national team has played several exhibition matches against male teams, most notably losing 0–3 to the VfB Stuttgart Under-17 squad in preparation for the 2003 World Cup.

There's also several examples of seriously unfit, lowly ranked male tennis players absolutely destroying the best women's tennis players going.

If you want an even match up in soccer I think you seriously need to be pairing the best professionally coached women's teams with casual kickabout teams of men who don't play with any tactics or structure.

yohan the great

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

I don't know about that, I've seen some women run absolute rings around their male counterparts. I don't find it hard to believe at all that a good women's side would be able to put it up to a conference team.

I remember there being a thread in AH about whether Katie Taylor would able to compete with an amatuer male equivalent, it was an interesting read.

Are you serious? You are really underestimating the quality of the conference I think. I wouldn't be surprised if a good Sunday league team beat a very good professional woman's team

Mars Bar

Why the need to even compare? It's bloody stupid. At no point will there ever be a meaningful game where women will take on men.

The only thing this kind of conversation does is hurt the pride of a few men who feel insulted that someone might think a woman is better at a "mans game" than them.

Antifa161

Mars Bar wrote: »

Why the need to even compare? It's bloody stupid. At no point will there ever be a meaningful game where women will take on men.

The only thing this kind of conversation does is hurt the pride of a few men who feel insulted that someone might think a woman is better at a "mans game" than them.

lol I don't think it's that 'side' who have their pride hurt in these debates. Not when every piece of available evidence suggests that they are correct.

The point is not that men's football is better than women's, that is not really up for debate. The point is that this lame drive to overcompensate for this and pretend that people care about the women's game needs to stop. It's patronising women at the very least.

Skid X

Kerrigooney wrote: »

Zlatan is a class A,gold plated troll. I wouldn't take anything he says too seriously.

Nothing trollish about giving your honest opinion to a silly question

"I was asked [by Swedish media] in the summer who was the better player, me or [Sweden striker] Lotta Schelin. You're joking with me, right? When I've broken all these records, this goal record, the goals in the national team, who shall I compare it to? Shall I compare it to whoever has the record, or the ladies?"

Far more able bodied Males on the planet have played Football at some point in their lives than Females. Zlatan has got to the top of his profession against huge competition. Women's Football doesn't have anything like the same participation levels Worldwide. It is much easier for a talented female to become a World Class Player, purely on the basis of the amount of players she is competing against.

To claim he is only as good as his equivalent in the Womens' team is doing him a serious injustice.

Mars Bar

Antifa161 wrote: »

The point is not that men's football is better than women's, that is not really up for debate. The point is that this lame drive to overcompensate for this and pretend that people care about the women's game needs to stop. It's patronising women at the very least.

This is a waste of time.

ush

Antifa161 wrote: »

lol I don't think it's that 'side' who have their pride hurt in these debates. Not when every piece of available evidence suggests that they are correct.

The point is not that men's football is better than women's, that is not really up for debate. The point is that this lame drive to overcompensate for this and pretend that people care about the women's game needs to stop. It's patronising women at the very least.

Is that you Sepp?

ush

Skid X wrote: »

To claim he is only as good as his equivalent in the Womens' team is doing him a serious injustice.

Who made that claim?

enfant terrible

Xavi6 wrote: »

The 15/16 year olds would hammer your team too, by more.

I think you're putting way too much emphasis on strength/size and not enough on technical ability. Those academy teams aren't winning because they're bigger, it's because they are better footballers.

In a sliding scale - academy teams >>>>> the best women's teams >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your average Sunday league teams

Not sure here is the comments of a coach of a boys team that played the USWNT

"I suspect that all the teams that were involved were asked to ratchet down the physicality as not to injure anyone. This undoubtedly was a good thing because in the handful of collisions that did occur the women more then not got the worst of it."

http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/uswnt-vs-so-cal-boys-odp.929075/

This is against boys of course not fully grown men.

Mars Bar

Antifa161 wrote: »

Wow you're good at this, I can see why you're a mod.

Why would I waste my time? You clearly feel the women's game is a waste of time while I actively do work for women's football. You are not going to be converted and you are not going to help any drive to improve women's football. No matter what I say is going to change your opinion is it?

Antifa161

Mars Bar wrote: »

Why would I waste my time? You clearly feel the women's game is a waste of time while I actively do work for women's football. You are not going to be converted and you are not going to help any drive to improve women's football. No matter what I say is going to change your opinion is it?

I don't think it's a wast of time at all, I guess you haven't been reading my posts.

Mars Bar

Antifa161 wrote: »

I don't think it's a wast of time at all, I guess you haven't been reading my posts.

Fair enough, you didn't say it was a complete waste of time. My apologies.

It just gets on my wick when this conversation pops up and turns in to "my pub team would be the German women's team".

As for the dressing it up more than it is is patronising? No it's not. The women put in such hard work while attending college or doing part time work (Niamh Fahey for example) and people think it doesn't deserve the air time are wrong in my opinion. We need more televised women's game and we need more publicity. We need more over the top praise.

The_Kew_Tour

If the German National team were to play in Ireland what standard would they be at?(bit of guess I know)

Seaneh

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

If the German National team were to play in Ireland what standard would they be at?(bit of guess I know)

I'd say LSL would beyond them to be honest.