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Martin : FF no longer toxic brand

  • 27-12-2013 7:54pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭


    In an attempt to shore up internal support for himself , Martin has declared Fianna Fail to be detoxified

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/martin-ff-no-longer-a-toxic-brand-253622.html

    Is he correct ? Is all forgiven ?

    When I think of Fianna Fail the first things that come into my head are bankrupting of the economy, surrender of our soverignty, corruption, forgery, arrogance, dishonesty, money resting in accounts, telling lies under oath , etc etc.

    Still looks toxic to me


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭V.W.L 11


    raymon wrote: »
    In an attempt to shore up internal support for himself , Martin has declared Fianna Fail to be detoxified

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/martin-ff-no-longer-a-toxic-brand-253622.html

    Is he correct ? Is all forgiven ?

    When I think of Fianna Fail the first things that come into my head are bankrupting of the economy, surrender of our soverignty, corruption, forgery, arrogance, dishonesty, money resting in accounts, telling lies under oath , etc etc.

    Still looks toxic to me

    yet he was the one at the cabinet table from 1997-2011 making crazy decisions with bertie,biffo & crew???and he was also part of the government who brought the troika here???bring on the elections next may as i am a resident of the Cork City North West Ward,and his Cllr in this ward will get the ears burned off him by me,if the same guy is re-elected he is a certainty to be corks next fianna fail lord mayor


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Irish politics is general is still toxic and I don't believe I'm being cynical in saying that.

    I will vote for Fine Gael again, simply because there is no alternative


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭V.W.L 11


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Irish politics is general is still toxic and I don't believe I'm being cynical in saying that.

    I will vote for Fine Gael again, simply because there is no alternative

    not much understanding of/nor do i care about politics,but sinn fein???


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 658 ✭✭✭jjpep


    He's probably right but that says more about Irish politics than it does about him and ff.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,793 ✭✭✭Red Kev


    To me they're still toxic, and will be for a couple of decades at the very least.

    When the likes of O'Dea, Martin and essentially every backroom staffer who was in FF pre 2011 is gone then they might be detoxed, but that depends on their policies and how they implement them. Just looking locally at who they have lined up for the Local Elections in 2014 they haven't changed a bit.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    All Irish politics is toxic for sure as a previous poster has noted. The self serving corruption and risk taking that arose during the Ahern years was inevitable the way things were going.

    Fianna Fail arguably did more to facilitate the marriage of politics to big business and borrowing/credit/lending culture but the same policies existed for years and were adopted by several parties.

    As regards choice of who to vote for, there appears very little. The choices are:

    1. Fianna Fail: dominated by big business and developer interests in the past, the party has marketed itself as going back to its roots as one on the side of the small farmer and small business. However, they have no intention ever to upset the current elitist status quo and are not in any way going to radically reform anything. They follow a moderate foreign policy and encourage Ireland as an open, ready for business state.
    2. Fine Gael: by and large, the same as Fianna Fail without the corruption the likes of Bertie and Haughey brought to Fianna Fail. In the past, they were seen as more on the side of the rich than the poor (however, Bertie and Haughey proved this was very true of Fianna Fail too).
    3. Labour: Another party largely similar to FF & FG, who were always its two choices of coalition parties! Meant to be on the side of workers, in reality Labour look after the vested interests of the elite like the rest.
    4. Sinn Fein: Of course, we automatically think of the IRA and of a party on the side of the downtrodden against big business, the British and elitism. Sinn Fein in power would be a different prospect (for an idea of what it would be like, think Northern Ireland). They would essentially become Fianna Fail, moderate its foreign policy and sink into the usual role of protecting the elite.
    5. Independents: these are normally ex Fianna Failers for the most part and jump on a bandwagon to get elected be it turf, pylons, radiotherapy, Shell to Sea, people before profit, incinerators, etc, etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    V.W.L 11 wrote: »
    not much understanding of/nor do i care about politics,but sinn fein???

    A) Sinn Féin leadership is still tainted by their IRA connections.
    B) They live in a land of fantasy economics. While I appreciate they do good work in a lot of communities that other parties won't touch, they make an awful lot of promises that they can only afford to make because they're not in power and don't have to make good on them. An awful lot like FF, especially Martin's FF in that regard.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    Stark wrote: »
    A) Sinn Féin leadership is still tainted by their IRA connections.
    B) They live in a land of fantasy economics. While I appreciate they do good work in a lot of communities that other parties won't touch, they make an awful lot of promises that they can only afford to make because they're not in power and don't have to make good on them. An awful lot like FF, especially Martin's FF in that regard.

    That is very true. Overall, SF are very like FF in many ways. The opposition politician promising a fairer state if they get into power can be taken with a grain of salt: once in power, they continue on as the last government did. There is no reason to believe SF are any different.

    SF will recruit a lot of respectable people into its ranks with the likes of Chris Andrews already in there to attract ex-FF voters who still don't want to vote for FF. SF will market itself as a major rival to FF as a moderate republican party (with the dissidents catering for more hardline republicanism and FG more in line with the 'free state' legacy).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,351 ✭✭✭Littlehorny


    He's doting if he thinks Fianna Fail are no longer toxic when only a week ago a mate of Bertie's was exposed creaming money off charitable donations from the CRC when he was its CEO. I still think there is alot more skeletons to come out of Fianna Fails closet yet from the Celtic Tiger era.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,591 ✭✭✭✭Aidric


    Was listening to a year in review show last weekend, think it was on newstalk. The point was made, and I agree with it, is that Martin has done a good job of steadying the ship but if FF want move on and leave behind their reckless legacy then they need fresh blood to lead the party.

    The problem seems to be a lack of suitable candidates. I expect the current government, with a little collateral damage, to be returned again.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Thomas D


    FF only care about themselves and this sort of introspection is typical of Martin and FF. It's all about the party and how they're perceived.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    raymon wrote: »
    In an attempt to shore up internal support for himself , Martin has declared Fianna Fail to be detoxified

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/martin-ff-no-longer-a-toxic-brand-253622.html

    Is he correct ? Is all forgiven ?

    When I think of Fianna Fail the first things that come into my head are bankrupting of the economy, surrender of our soverignty, corruption, forgery, arrogance, dishonesty, money resting in accounts, telling lies under oath , etc etc.

    Still looks toxic to me

    What springs to your mind, when you think of F.G.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,663 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    If FF is detoxified, I wil llsoe whatever shread of hope in democracy I have left.
    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Irish politics is general is still toxic and I don't believe I'm being cynical in saying that.

    I will vote for Fine Gael again, simply because there is no alternative

    There are alternatives: smaller parties, independants - they might not get into power, but if their polices get votes then maybe whoever is in power will actually pat attnetion.

    Besides, Ming got in: wahtever you think of him as a politician, you know about his policies.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    What springs to your mind, when you think of F.G.

    And cue the fianna fail supporters trying to turn the subject to FG!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    Thomas D wrote: »
    FF only care about themselves and this sort of introspection is typical of Martin and FF. It's all about the party and how they're perceived.

    tell me a party that doesnt


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    What springs to your mind, when you think of F.G.

    Nice try with some whataboutery.

    I will answer your question though. When I think of FG, Lab or Ind , the fact that they are not FF or SF springs to mind.

    If you start a separate thread about these parties I would be happy to debate you there.
    And for the record I am neither a member or supporter of Fg
    , Lab or Ind grouping.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    raymon wrote: »
    Nice try with some whataboutery.

    I will answer your question though. When I think of FG, Lab or Ind , the fact that they are not FF or SF springs to mind.

    If you start a separate thread about these parties I would be happy to debate you there.
    And for the record I am neither a member or supporter of Fg
    , Lab or Ind grouping.

    you remind me of enda, Inability to debate, never answer even the simplest of questions, instead try and divert attention for your failings by criticising others and in your denial of being a f.g supporter an inability to lie straight in bed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,663 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    you remind me of enda, Inability to debate, never answer even the simplest of questions, instead try and divert attention for your failings by criticising others and in your denial of being a f.g supporter an inability to lie straight in bed.

    In fairness, one of the most positve points about FG is that they aren't FF.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    So has he dumped brothelgate willie from the party? Surely having liars as one of the partys top men can't be good for the party? Did we ever get to the bottom of that affadavit story?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,462 ✭✭✭✭WoollyRedHat


    Can MM and the likes just shut the **** up and go away. If they really were, they would have pursued justice in the face of their parties crimes, committed by the leaders fronted by said parties. But they won't and they'll do the same again.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    In fairness, one of the most positve points about FG is that they aren't FF.

    they are currently working to change that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    you remind me of enda, Inability to debate, never answer even the simplest of questions, instead try and divert attention for your failings by criticising others and in your denial of being a f.g supporter an inability to lie straight in bed.

    I answered your question, and you reply with jibberish again.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    raymon wrote: »
    I answered your question, and you reply with jibberish again.

    Its what fianna fail supporters do!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,517 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    I suppose Gary Glitter could still open a creche now that he has been out of the news so long.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    raymon wrote: »
    I answered your question, and you reply with jibberish again.

    you call that an answer. if your not in f.g you should join. in time you could lead it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Kensington


    you remind me of enda, Inability to debate, never answer even the simplest of questions, instead try and divert attention for your failings by criticising others and in your denial of being a f.g supporter an inability to lie straight in bed.

    Eh hold on, is that not exactly what you just did?
    A debate starts about Fianna Fail and you instead try to divert attention to Fine Gael?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    Its what fianna fail supporters do!

    Are you a f.f supporter, don't try to hide it. In my eyes that would leave you on a par with f.g supporters.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    you call that an answer. if your not in f.g you should join. in time you could lead it.

    You are succeeding in dragging this thread way off the OP with whataboutery ..... Well done


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,663 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    they are currently working to change that.

    If the electorate falls for it, they're morons.

    It's not the FF would make bad leaders, it's the fact that FF are seriously corrupt. Ok, they same oculd be said about other parties, but looking back over the years, the majority of financial scandals have involved FF politicians.

    While Enda Kenny has pretty much steered Ireland through the worst of the financial crisis, I don't see what Michale Martin has done to instill trust in anyone.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭grainnewhale


    Kensington wrote: »
    Eh hold on, is that not exactly what you just did?
    A debate starts about Fianna Fail and you instead try to divert attention to Fine Gael?

    I was simply looking for the o.p to come clean about his allegiance to f.g. In the fairness of having an open and honest debate. If I was a supporter of .f.f and trying to put a case forward as to why somebody should support them over f.g., it would be nice to know that the o.p was a lifelong f.g supporter and would support them in any circumstances.
    Being a f.g supporter I would expect him to be interested in openess and transperancy .


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    I was simply looking for the o.p to come clean about his allegiance to f.g. In the fairness of having an open and honest debate. If I was a supporter of .f.f and trying to put a case forward as to why somebody should support them over f.g., it would be nice to know that the o.p was a lifelong f.g supporter and would support them in any circumstances.
    Being a f.g supporter I would expect him to be interested in openess and transperancy .

    I am not a FG supporter.

    Please stop dragging the thread off the OP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭Nate--IRL--


    raymon wrote: »
    Martin has declared Fianna Fail to be detoxified

    Ahahahaha! What a ****wit.

    Nate


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Cedrus


    The thirty year papers release isn't going to help even if all is not going to be revealed about the Phone Tapping Files.
    November 1982 was a bad time for the fine failures to lose an election, all the **** is coming out now. Haughey stamps his legacy on the party once again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Thomas D wrote: »
    FF only care about themselves and this sort of introspection is typical of Martin and FF. It's all about the party and how they're perceived.

    You are correct there. You will find that all Michael Martins interviews are about himself or the party or more about himself. Never a mention of the countrys fortunes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭Fr. Ned


    raymon wrote: »
    In an attempt to shore up internal support for himself , Martin has declared Fianna Fail to be detoxified

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/martin-ff-no-longer-a-toxic-brand-253622.html

    Is he correct ? Is all forgiven ?

    When I think of Fianna Fail the first things that come into my head are bankrupting of the economy, surrender of our soverignty, corruption, forgery, arrogance, dishonesty, money resting in accounts, telling lies under oath , etc etc.

    Still looks toxic to me

    As long as Mehole Martin and the likes of Willie O'Dea etc etc are involved, at any level, FFail will be toxic.
    They must purge themselves of the old guard before they can be taken seriously again.
    In saying that, the FF voters who 'loaned' their votes to FG in the 2011 GE will return en masse after seeing that FG are really just the same thing.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭Fr. Ned



    Being a f.g supporter I would expect him to be interested in openness and transperancy .

    As a famous man once said...."That's a cracker........"

    They don't know the meaning of those two words.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,535 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    There are, in my view, two irelands. It is not easy to define them but there are certain characteristics that are generally relevant:

    Rural/urban
    Parochial/metropolitan
    Tribal/citizen
    Self interested / want the country as a whole to do well.

    There are lots of cross overs and urban people can be just as parochial and self interested as rural people.

    However, among the latter types FF are completely toxic and will never return to normality. On the other hand, among the hard core parish pumpers, FF did nothing wrong. This is why dublin has no sitting FF TDs but, as the parish pumpers and me feniers grow in dominance again, I suspect a few FF TDs will get through.

    But for approximately 20% of Irish people, mostly older and mostly from outside dublin, they would sooner sacrifice their young than vote for someone other than FF.

    So Martins message is really for those people who are closer to the latter group than the former, and the message is "at least hear us out". By the time of the next election, they will be saying "now that everything is forgiven, look how great we are".

    I say no.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    raymon wrote: »
    You are correct there. You will find that all Michael Martins interviews are about himself or the party or more about himself. Never a mention of the countrys fortunes.

    We see poor leadership everywhere in Ireland. Martin is a prime example. The image of himself and his party are put before the country for sure. Next general election I probably will not vote for anyone as they are all the same.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    Fr. Ned wrote: »
    As long as Mehole Martin and the likes of Willie O'Dea etc etc are involved, at any level, FFail will be toxic.
    They must purge themselves of the old guard before they can be taken seriously again.
    In saying that, the FF voters who 'loaned' their votes to FG in the 2011 GE will return en masse after seeing that FG are really just the same thing.

    Martin, O'Dea, etc. were all prominent members of the recent FF administration and served under our 'corruptest Taoiseach Bertie'. Their very names are associated with that era so yes FF will remain toxic for as long as they are there.

    BUT toxicity runs far deeper than just that. Mention the word politician in Ireland and you are sure to get a negative feedback about the profession. The current government are hardly implementing the policies the people voted them in to implement and hardly kept their promises. I don't believe Martin's FF would be any different to the current government or the previous FF government.

    When we have either corrupt or useless politicians as our choice, people will just stop voting. Many of today's politicians don't even try to help their communities. The fact that they don't even try means they should not get a vote.

    I'd glad I'm out of Waterford, the current home of 2 of our most useless TDs. But never fear, I'm in Cork now and have Martin!! Better than the 2 FG & Labour tossers from Waterford but not by much and I won't be voting for him. :mad::D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    If FF are elected to power again with the likes of O'Dea, Martin and God preserve us all, Coughlan involved then the Irish people deserve everything they've got so far in this crisis. I can't see how anybody could justify a vote for FF in any circumstances but, having said that, I don't think the current lot have covered themselves in glory either.
    Maybe the thinking behind Martin's aspirations is, as we don't really govern ourselves anyway and are unlikely ever to do so again, one puppet is as good as the next.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,859 ✭✭✭Courtesy Flush


    No party is free from corruption charges but FF seems to have been significantly more corrupt than the others. Heres hoping they dont slime their way back in


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    No party is free from corruption charges but FF seems to have been significantly more corrupt than the others. Heres hoping they dont slime their way back in

    Never underestimate the stupidity of people to vote in these crooks!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    raymon wrote: »
    In an attempt to shore up internal support for himself , Martin has declared Fianna Fail to be detoxified

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/martin-ff-no-longer-a-toxic-brand-253622.html

    Is he correct ? Is all forgiven ?

    When I think of Fianna Fail the first things that come into my head are bankrupting of the economy, surrender of our soverignty, corruption, forgery, arrogance, dishonesty, money resting in accounts, telling lies under oath , etc etc.

    Still looks toxic to me

    Has Martin forgotten about himself and Willie? It will never be fully detoxified so long as he and Willie are still there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    Has Martin forgotten about himself and Willie? It will never be fully detoxified so long as he and Willie are still there.

    Indeed . We must also remember that most current Fianna Fail TDs and Senators were part of Foireann Bertie (Bertie's Team) in 2007. You will find it difficult to find the election literature now - most images have been deleted by Fianna Fail.

    Bertie's boys still look toxic to me - all of them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    bmaxi wrote: »
    If FF are elected to power again with the likes of O'Dea, Martin and God preserve us all, Coughlan involved then the Irish people deserve everything they've got so far in this crisis. I can't see how anybody could justify a vote for FF in any circumstances but, having said that, I don't think the current lot have covered themselves in glory either.
    Maybe the thinking behind Martin's aspirations is, as we don't really govern ourselves anyway and are unlikely ever to do so again, one puppet is as good as the next.

    True. We do not need these in power ever ever ever again. The last time they were in government, they were self serving and useless. The same holds for our current shower. I will not vote for the people in FF, FG, Labour, SF or the indos we currently have as they are all useless, incompetent, lying opportunists who promise the sun, moon and stars and deliver sweet FA. Mediocrity flavoured with corruption = current Irish politics.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    No party is free from corruption charges but FF seems to have been significantly more corrupt than the others. Heres hoping they dont slime their way back in

    FF are a very corrupt party especially during the Bertie and Charlie 'John Boy' Haughey eras! De Valera was someone I wouldn't exactly trust either. Lemass and Lynch seemed to be good leaders.

    FF are more corrupt than the others because they have been in power far longer and are bigger. However, corruption and protecting elites is common in all parties (yes, inclusive of SF, the indos and such movements as reform alliance and direct democracy: just wait to see any of them join FF or FG and you will see how they act!!). The system, where politics and big business go hand in hand, is what causes a lot of this and taken politics away from serving the people to instead serve certain individuals over the years including Seans Dunne, Fitzpatrick and Quinn, Larry Goodman, Michael Smurfit, Dermot Desmond and Ben Dunne.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    Did I hear recently that Sean Haughey will be running for fianna fail next elections?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    Did I hear recently that Sean Haughey will be running for fianna fail next elections?

    Yes, you did. And you will be hearing a lot more of the so-called 'retired' FF politicians who resigned in 2011 putting themselves forward again! Please god, do not make one of them Dermot Ahern!!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    Yes, you did. And you will be hearing a lot more of the so-called 'retired' FF politicians who resigned in 2011 putting themselves forward again! Please god, do not make one of them Dermot Ahern!!

    Or one of the nodding donkeys as Ivan yates recently described Dermot !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    I really hope the electorate remember it is Fianna Fail who shepherded us into this disaster and the fact that some of those who helped with the decisions (or was it inaction) are still around.

    The fact that FF have a man as their current leader that sat at the cabinet table for 14 years shows that they are certainly far from detoxified.

    What did Michael do at the cabinet table for those 14 years, was he an active participant in the decision making process or did he just sit there and "look pretty" smiling gormlessly at Bertie Ahern while he made a cuppa. Either way he is not fit to be a TD let alone consider himself an alternative leader of the next Government.

    As for alternatives Sinn Fein certainly are not one of them. They are shaping up nicely as a new FF showing their hypocrisy with the populist fantasy economics that they spout in opposition down here with the vicious cuts that they have enacted when they are actually in Government in Northern Ireland.


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