Yellow on smoke paper

Wearb

Was at a sooted up warm flow today (worst I had ever seen) Anyway cleaned it etc. and changed the .65 80s for a
.65. 60s as per MI. kept getting yellow on smoke paper. Changed back to 80Degrees and ok.

Is that yellow caused by flame impingement and therefore unburnt oil?

shane0007

Wearb wrote: »

Was at a sooted up warm flow today (worst I had ever seen) Anyway cleaned it etc. and changed the .65 80s for a
.65. 60s as per MI. kept getting yellow on smoke paper. Changed back to 80Degrees and ok.

Is that yellow caused by flame impingement and therefore unburnt oil?

Warmflow's should be 60ES Nozzles, not S

Wearb

shane0007 wrote: »

Warmflow's should be 60ES Nozzles, not S

Only had an s in the box. Would that have caused the yellowing?

shane0007

Wearb wrote: »

Only had an s in the box. Would that have caused the yellowing?

Aye, too much fuel for the combustion chamber to handle.
If you don't have the correct nozzle to hand, don't change it until you can return with the correct one.
Always ask a new customer for their boiler make & model & always keep a note of existing customer's. I keep them on my phone for each customer. That way I always have the correct nozzle before going there.

scudo2

Wearb wrote: »

Only had an s in the box. Would that have caused the yellowing?

Yellowing ( if that's a word ? ) is caused by un burnt oil vapor. Over aired, not 100% proper combustion. On WARMFLOW HE boilers I personal think there is not enough free air space around baffles to allow for easy perfect combustion, to much resistance.
If boiler has an oily sutty coating I've often had to tune it slightly over aired after cleaning and let heat and time burn off last of oily substance overnight and call back next day for proper fine tuning.
On the baffles issue, I've personal found if you bend the corners back on opposite plates, 2 to the front,2 to the back, and so on it reduces the resistance and gives an easier burning with way less back pressure compared to the flat baffles with little air gaps. Never had any problems once I done this. Again, this is only my experience. I've told this to other service eng. and he also found a great difference.


Persional I've no great problem with nozzle.
S v ES
H v EH
60 v 80
Smaller nozzles at higher pressure, bigger nozzles at lower pressure.
( ps yes I do know the difference and the reasons why,)
But If I get the boiler running 100% then I'm happy.

Sometimes you have to play around with different ones to get it right.
New nozzle can also be faulty so also bear that factor in.
Only time and experience + a few headaches will teach you this, eventual it gets easier.

It doesn't cost much to have a good large mix of the usual nozzle sizes and types. The'll never go to waste.

Wearb

scudo2 wrote: »

Yellowing ( if that's a word ? ) is caused by un burnt oil vapor. Over aired. On WARMFLOW HE boilers I personal think there is not enough free air space around baffles to allow for easy perfect combustion, to much resistance.
If boiler has an oily sutty coating I've often had to tune it slightly over aired after cleaning and let heat and time burn off last of oily substance overnight and call back next day for proper fine tuning.
On the baffles issue, I've personal found if you bend the corners back on opposite plates, 2 to the front,2 to the back, and so on it reduces the resistance and gives an easier burning with way less back pressure compared to the flat baffles with little air gaps. Never had any problems once I done this. Again, this is only my experience. I've told this to other service eng. and he also found a great difference.


Persional I've no great problem with nozzle.
S v ES
H v EH
60 v 80

Sometimes you have to play around with different ones to get it right.
New nozzle can also be faulty so also bear that factor in.

It doesn't cost much to have a good mix of the usual nozzle sizes and types. The'll never go to waste.

Thanks Scudo. I usually have lots of nozzles, but a delivery ordered before Christmas hasn't arrived yet.

agusta

scudo2 wrote: »

Yellowing ( if that's a word ? ) is caused by un burnt oil vapor. Over aired, not 100% proper combustion. On WARMFLOW HE boilers I personal think there is not enough free air space around baffles to allow for easy perfect combustion, to much resistance.
If boiler has an oily sutty coating I've often had to tune it slightly over aired after cleaning and let heat and time burn off last of oily substance overnight and call back next day for proper fine tuning.
On the baffles issue, I've personal found if you bend the corners back on opposite plates, 2 to the front,2 to the back, and so on it reduces the resistance and gives an easier burning with way less back pressure compared to the flat baffles with little air gaps. Never had any problems once I done this. Again, this is only my experience. I've told this to other service eng. and he also found a great difference.


Persional I've no great problem with nozzle.
S v ES
H v EH
60 v 80
Smaller nozzles at higher pressure, bigger nozzles at lower pressure.
( ps yes I do know the difference and the reasons why,)
But If I get the boiler running 100% then I'm happy.

Sometimes you have to play around with different ones to get it right.
New nozzle can also be faulty so also bear that factor in.
Only time and experience + a few headaches will teach you this, eventual it gets easier.

It doesn't cost much to have a good large mix of the usual nozzle sizes and types. The'll never go to waste.

Do you have any issue changing a 60 degree nozzle to a 80

Wearb

agusta wrote: »

Do you have any issue changing a 60 degree nozzle to a 80 degree nozzle or would you gauge it by chamber size etc..,thanks

I know I wasn't asked the question, but I always try and stick to MI and only try different angles when ALL else fails. I would try a 60H instead of a 60S before trying different angles.
I am not as experienced as Scudo though.

esox28

if you run outa eh/es kero nozzles you can drop .05gph to hollow or solid.

As scudo rightly said

Persional I've no great problem with nozzle.
S v ES
H v EH
60 v 80
Smaller nozzles at higher pressure, bigger nozzles at lower pressure.
( ps yes I do know the difference and the reasons why,)
But If I get the boiler running 100% then I'm happy

scudo2

Wearb wrote: »

Thanks Scudo. I usually have lots of nozzles, but a delivery ordered before Christmas hasn't arrived yet.

Its hard to keep everything for everything.

Easy for me as I only do oil , saying that, I've €100s on obsolete parts lying in my store !
Anybody need Grant/Ecoflam Minor 1s motors X 12 !!
Blast tubes X 25
Transformers X 8
+ a ton of crap.

ps. Air bands now available from Firebird

jimf

was this he boiler because I usually find these grossly overaired the reasons shane covered here before

so overaired would deff lead to impingement and bad atomization air damper settings can be as low 1.5 /2 on some

Wearb

jimf wrote: »

was this he boiler because I usually find these grossly overaired the reasons shane covered here before

so overaired would deff lead to impingement and bad atomization air damper settings can be as low 1.5 /2 on some

SE Warmflow 70/90 boilerhouse. 5.6 o2. 34% xs air. Strange thing about those boilers is if you were to go by combustion chamber size, you would opt for a 80 degree nozzle. Last service man on it may have been on to something with his 80degree nozzle.

scudo2

Wearb wrote: »

SE Warmflow 70/90 boilerhouse. 5.6 o2. 34% xs air. Strange thing about those boilers is if you were to go by combustion chamber size, you would opt for a 80 degree nozzle. Last service man on it may have been on to something with his 80degree nozzle.

SE Boilers, if you get it burning 100% then your ok, no matter what nozzle or who was there before, unless it was me of course!!

jimf

the detail I have for this is .65x60s at 8bar set at mid range

shane0007

Wearb wrote: »

SE Warmflow 70/90 boilerhouse. 5.6 o2. 34% xs air. Strange thing about those boilers is if you were to go by combustion chamber size, you would opt for a 80 degree nozzle. Last service man on it may have been on to something with his 80degree nozzle.

I have never fitted anything but 60ES on Warmflow's.
As soon as you go outside MI's you are inheriting any problem caused by that appliance whether the problem was due to your action or not.

Manufacturers spend years testing every nozzle, every baffle, every component associated with that boiler. They test to see if they change x, how will it affect a, b and c with defined testing measurements.

So by us, thinking we can just make an adjustment outside their instructions & pat ourselves on our backs for obtaining a perceived result maybe pre-mature. We have to also remember how that adjustment outside their instructions will react under all affecting conditions such as air temps, wind conditions, etc.

Stick to MI's & you will never have a finger pointing at you. I personally do not have the laboratories & testing equipment that manufacturers have, nor do I have the expertise that they possess to interpret the results.

Take a free training day at Grants but ask them to show you their labs & I guarantee, you won't step outside MI's again!

shane0007

jimf wrote: »

the detail I have for this is .65x60s at 8bar set at mid range

All Warmflow MI's I have are 60ES.

jimf

just as this question has come up can I get your opinions please most of the mi we have to hand are based on rdb burners being fitted but a lot of the time you will find an riello 40 g3 fitted

do ye think this makes a difference to the specs am I thinking through my rear orifice again

shane0007

jimf wrote: »

just as this question has come up can I get your opinions please most of the mi we have to hand are based on rdb burners being fitted but a lot of the time you will find an riello 40 g3 fitted

do ye think this makes a difference to the specs am I thinking through my rear orifice again

There is very little difference between the 2 burners. They only use the RDB's with their boilers so you should check with their Technical Support for individual boiler model advice.

The main "watch out" difference will be the air box & the blast tube type, the latter changing between nearly every boiler output range.

jimf

shane0007 wrote: »

There is very little difference between the 2 burners. They only lost the RDB's with their boilers so you should check with their Technical Support for individual boiler model advice.

The main "watch out" difference will be the air box & the blast tube type, the latter changing between nearly every boiler output range.

ta shane just something I often meant to ask

jimf

shane0007 wrote: »

All Warmflow MI's I have are 60ES.

listing I have shane is 6.2 jan 04 whats yours mine maybe way out date

shane0007

jimf wrote: »

ta shane just something I often meant to ask

Many boilers will have very little reaction to changes from one blast tube to another, however, the Warmflow chambers can be very tricky little buggers throwing up all sorts of weird things under differing conditions.
It is therefore always best to stick to MI's with these ones & funny enough, they run pretty well on them.

The FB HE counter-part is a different story of course. A bit of self healing wouldn't go astray with them. Perhaps they need to go to one of those evening meetings & stand up in front of the room to announce a few realisations!

Wearb

shane0007 wrote: »

I have never fitted anything but 60ES on Warmflow's.
As soon as you go outside MI's you are inheriting any problem caused by that appliance whether the problem was due to your action or not.

Manufacturers spend years testing every nozzle, every baffle, every component associated with that boiler. They test to see if they change x, how will it affect a, b and c with defined testing measurements.

So by us, thinking we can just make an adjustment outside their instructions & pat ourselves on our backs for obtaining a perceived result may be pre-mature. We have to also remember how that adjustment outside their instructions will react under all affecting conditions such as air temps, wind conditions, etc.

Stick to MI's & you will never have a finger pointing at you. I personally do not have the laboratories & testing equipment that manufacturers have not do I have the expertise that have possess to interpret the results.

Take a free training day at Grants but ask them to show you their labs & I guarantee, you won't step outside MI's again!

Very difficult to disagree with any of that Shane.

scudo2

Anything I post is from personal experience and only trying to help you all with my totaly personal experience. It up to you if input helps.
At the end of day all opinions are a good idea and of help.
Manufactures normally make good boilers and good guide lines.
But it us out in the field that have to fix them after others !

Have fun.

Who can ask for better if you get it efficient and burning 100%

shane0007

jimf wrote: »

listing I have shane is 6.2 jan 04 whats yours mine maybe way out date

http://warmflow.tpsrv.co.uk//media/1332429868SEmanual.pdf

PDF Page 26

Wearb

jimf wrote: »

listing I have shane is 6.2 jan 04 whats yours mine maybe way out date

That is the newest one I could find also Jim. What one are you working off Shane?

jimf

scudo2 wrote: »

Anything I post is from personal experience and only trying to help you all with my totaly personal experience. It up to you if input helps.
At the end of day all opinions are a good idea and of help.
Manufactures normally make good boilers and good guide lines.
But it us out in the field that have to fix them after others !

Have fun.

Who can ask for better if you get it efficient and burning 100%

this is why I think you have to at least have the proper nozzle and pump pressure as a start point scudo which is why mi are so important to have to hand there are so many service guys going around with a few .60 and .65 x80 nozzles and they fit everything

Wearb

shane0007 wrote: »

http://warmflow.tpsrv.co.uk//media/1332429868SEmanual.pdf

PDF Page 26

I came across that one, but it doesn't have the 70/90 (Bluebird I think) series.

scudo2

The big problem I think may be that boiler servicing is normally a 1 man on the boiler job. So hard to get experience without trial and error over the years + as many cources that you can go to.
Its the fools who think they know it all after a few weeks that are a danger,
I know more now than I did 20 years ago and will hopefully know more in 20 more years.
This goes for everything in life in my opinion.

Dtp1979

scudo2 wrote: »

Anything I post is from personal experience and only trying to help you all with my totaly personal experience. It up to you if input helps.
At the end of day all opinions are a good idea and of help.
Manufactures normally make good boilers and good guide lines.
But it us out in the field that have to fix them after others !

Have fun.

Who can ask for better if you get it efficient and burning 100%

I think its a bit of both following the MI's and being out in the field fixing them. Remember the first warmflow HE I came across with high CO. Nearly drove me mad. Even rang their riello and warmflow tech. Everything was by the book. Increase the air they told me! Only as a last gasp effort did I call into Metac and had a chat with a lad in there who sorted it in seconds

jimf

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I think its a bit of both following the MI's and being out in the field fixing them. Remember the first warmflow HE I came across with high CO. Nearly drove me mad. Even rang their riello and warmflow tech. Everything was by the book. Increase the air they told me! Only as a last gasp effort did I call into Metac and had a chat with a lad in there who sorted it in seconds

some nice chaps in that place very helpful :D

Dtp1979

jimf wrote: »

some nice chaps in that place very helpful :D

Well he saved me buying a 14lb sledge

It doesn't matter that a person working outside of MI or regs is correct in their findings, it matters that they can't prove their right to protect themselves, which is only ever a problem when it's a problem.

I don't work outside of my regs or mi as it's the only thing that protects me from the clipboard warriers if things ever went peared shape.

scudo2

jimf wrote: »

some nice chaps in that place very helpful :D

Has DGOBS hacked onto youur name "Jimf" ??????

jimf

scudo2 wrote: »

Has DGOBS hacked onto youur name "Jimf" ??????

oh them fellas have terrible power :)

scudo2

gary71 wrote: »

It doesn't matter that a person working outside of MI or regs is correct in their findings, it matters that they can't prove their right to protect themselves, which is only ever a problem when it's a problem.

I don't work outside of my regs or mi as it's the only thing that protects me from the clipboard warriers if things ever went peared shape.

Totaly agree once I get a boiler 100% with both common sense, safety and manufactures instructions. I've never left an unsafe boiler working, I've chopped the odd wire and safely/happly walked away before. !!

DGOBS

I agree with e vs es and h vs eh etc, as there is very little difference as long as you keep a trained eye on the flue temperature!
Danfoss do state they are direct swaps, essentially when es or eh are pushed with high pressure they give the same or similar
pattern as s & h.

You usually seem manufacturers opting for smaller eh & es for 9-10bar pressures IMO, to give better atomisation of fuel and deal with the restrictive nature of secondary heat exchangers.

You would normally see the yellow tarnish on the smoke test after a soot up and your still burning of the tar/residue that was deposited, bet if you come back in a week it would be clear. You may also get the same result from over airing the flame.

Wearb

DGOBS wrote: »

You would normally see the yellow tarnish on the smoke test after a soot up and your still burning of the tar/residue that was deposited, bet if you come back in a week it would be clear. You may also get the same result from over airing the flame.

That fits my scenario exactly. Badly sealed boiler house. Leaf in the air box and then.......

I did spend nearly an extra hour cleaning everything and breaking into and re-sealing the flue.
But obviously some residue left.

Thanks

DGOBS

Every try soot-breakers?

Wearb

DGOBS wrote: »

Every try soot-breakers?

No. Just an assortment of wire brushes and scrapers.

I just looked them up on www. Would they reduce the need for so much elbow grease. I rarely come across boilers as bad as the one in the photo. This belonged to a mechanic and I think he tried everything before contacting me. He even got it going (producing smoke, but very little heat. Doh.) and that is why it was so bad.
Does over-firing/over airing for half an hour work as a solution after cleaning, or is that just an old myth?

scudo2

Wearb wrote: »

No. Just an assortment of wire brushes and scrapers.

I just looked them up on www. Would they reduce the need for so much elbow grease. I rarely come across boilers as bad as the one in the photo. This belonged to a mechanic and I think he tried everything before contacting me. He even got it going (producing smoke, but very little heat. Doh.) and that is why it was so bad.
Does over-firing/over airing for half an hour work as a solution after cleaning, or is that just an old myth?

Dry soot can be cleaned and boiler properly tuned in the one call.
I find if its an oily sooty residue then your better off cleaning, roughly tuning it with slightly over aired. Call back next day for proper tune up after oily residue has burnt off. Even if you have used sootbreaker.

Sootbreaker is handy to have. Especially for all those lovely boilers in white utility rooms/kitchens.
Available from HM
Also known as EXPEL'C'

But it use to say on lable that's it not suitable for condensing boilers due to low flue gas temperature. But I've just looked and the ones I now have don't say this anymore.

Anybody know if they are now suitable for HE boilers, lable doesn't say ?

esox28

Have a tube of that expel for a utitily sooted pain in the morning. Any tips for using it haven't used it before...

have you to clean the boiler at all

Can you use the fga after?

Dtp1979

Is it the same as dualX?

scudo2

esox28 wrote: »

Have a tube of that expel for a utitily sooted pain in the morning. Any tips for using it haven't used it before...

have you to clean the boiler at all

Can you use the fga after?

Full instructions on tube.
Its recomended to brush out ashes afterwards.
But if boiler is 100% blocked and can't be run, then you need brushes. To totaly clean it or just enough to clear enough for it to work.

Then FGA

I've been useing them for years, when I don't have an option.

esox28

Rtfm, got it.

Dtp...havent used either only thing hm had at short notice.

scudo2

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Is it the same as dualX?

Haven't a clue as I've no experience of dualX .

Expel is a tube. You let boiler heat up for 15 min. remove burner, trow tube into back of combustion chamber, refit burner and fire up.
30 seconds later there will be very very thick black smoke+some sparks for a miniute. (scary if you weren't expecting it) not mentioned on tube. But it's no big deal.
Look in flue afterwards,spotless, handy stuff if it works right.

agusta

jimf wrote: »

listing I have shane is 6.2 jan 04 whats yours mine maybe way out date

The manual you have is for the boiler shown in picture attached.Its a 90/120 top servicing.The nozzles in your manual are all 60s and are correct for the boiler in the picture.The manual shane has is for the newer series of warmflows and they use 60es nozzles.Its just two slightly different models of warmflow boilers.

Wearb

Called in yesterday evening to look at a boiler with black smoke. I just put it going and its not producing black smoke now. I am going back tomorrow to clean it. I am going to use a soot breaker on it. Wall beside the flue is only slightly blackened.
Do I need to do anything to protect the wall when using the soot breaker?

scudo2

Wearb wrote: »

Called in yesterday evening to look at a boiler with black smoke. I just put it going and its not producing black smoke now. I am going back tomorrow to clean it. I am going to use a soot breaker on it. Wall beside the flue is only slightly blackened.
Do I need to do anything to protect the wall when using the soot breaker?

Close all windows, thats all, thick smoke for 20 seconds that wont mark wall.
Soot breaker is handy but doesn't always do 100%

Have fun !

Wearb

scudo2 wrote: »

Close all windows, thats all, thick smoke for 20 seconds that wont mark wall.
Soot breaker is handy but doesn't always do 100%

Have fun !

Thanks Scudo. It worth a try. Any idea why it fails sometimes?
If it works, will I still need scraper and wire brush?

scudo2

Wearb wrote: »

Thanks Scudo. It worth a try. Any idea why it fails sometimes?
If it works, will I still need scraper and wire brush?

Personaly I just wrap up well and get stuck in with brush and hover, unless its an indoor boiler in a white utility room.

But then I'm use to it as I get 1 or 2 sotty ones a week.
I hate Febuary, sooty month myself and another service buddy call it.

Wearb

Used my soot breaker today. Got it up to temp, threw in the tube, fired her up again and turned on all calls for heat and opened a few windows. It says to keep it running for about an hour. Pulled out the burner, noticed there was a lot less soot on the burner head than before. Opened up the boiler and found a really light coating of soot, about as thick as a sheet of paper. I don't know how much soot was there to start with. Anyway I cleaned it up and put it going.
The soot breaker caused a plume similar to a HE boiler for a few minutes, nothing major. I am a kind of sorry now that I didn't open it up before use to see what it was like. Maybe next time, when it not so busy.

Something interesting; I did a FGA before using soot breaker and got very acceptable readings. Acceptable enough to fool you if you weren't diligent. Boiler had been running about 20 minutes and because the temperature was still rising (very slowly) I left it another 10 minutes. This time the co had gone into the hundreds and I didn't leave the probe in long enough to get proper readings on other parameters. What I can say, is that it seems that a sooted boiler behaves fairly well until the temperature goes over 200C. It then starts to reveal its true colours.

As for the soot breaker. I think that at a push, you could get away with using it without opening up and cleaning afterwards, but would not say that for definite yet. As I say, I wish I had inspected heat exchanger before.
So that is my experience with that. Perhaps it may be helpful to someone.