Jamie Heaslip's future (Unconfirmed Reports - Toulon)

phog

Irish Independent are saying Leinster have ruled out topping up IRFU contracts.

Is this a change of policy as they was a mention at the time of Sexton leaving that they wanted to do so for Sexton but IRFU wouldn't allow it?

[Jackass]

Completely expect this to be confirmed.

Why would the IRFU want to offer him a new contract? He's the highest paid player in the country, they can probably save 500k+ from letting him go, and Jordi Murphy will get loads of game time with Leinster giving the national team more depth.

It's not rocket science, the IRFU want to offload players, it's as simple as that. The only thing that matters is the national team.

I fully expect it to be a close call with O'Brien too. Whilst I don't expect both to go, I would be in no way shocked what so ever if they did.

blackdog1

bilston wrote: »

Funny thing, I remember hearing that Ruan Pienaar had signed for Toulon...a week later he signed a new 3 year deal with Ulster...so don't lose hope yet my Leinster friends.

Pienaar was dealing with ulster not the irfu..

razorblunt

Heaslip has suggested a few times, even outside of contract renewal periods he would like to head abroad. At this stage heading to the south of France for 3 years you can't fault him.

I think the IRFU matching the contract or even getting close to it would be a bad piece of business for them especially if it's a case of keeping SOB.

Larbre34

Heaslip has been a great player, but not as effective as in his breakthrough years, I would have no argument with Leinster declining to top-up IRFU salaries but its probably a case of simply cant afford to rather than an obstinate change of policy. If its a cold hard decision to hold onto O'Brien or Heaslip then it must be O'Brien as there are options to slot in for Heaslip at Club and National level should the need arise. IRFU did the right thing calling the bluff of Sexton's agent. As with Heaslip, all they can do is remind players of the extra-monetary benefits of playing under the system here, and the result of Sextons move should be a testament to the risks for those looking at the greener grass of France. If Jamie wants to go then stay out of a dutch auction and cut him loose, but let him depart with thanks and congratulations for the most decorated 7 or 8 year period an Irish forward ever had.

leftleg

Larbre34 wrote: »

Heaslip has been a great player, but not as effective as in his breakthrough years,

In what way has he not been as effective?

.ak

If anything Heaslip is a better player now than he ever was. People still looking for those barnstorming runs or sidesteps.

danthefan

.ak wrote: »

If anything Heaslip is a better player now than he ever was. People still looking for those barnstorming runs or sidesteps.

The argument against Heaslip mutates to suit too. Initially he was doing too much carrying and now enough work. Then he started hitting too many rucks and not enough carrying.

He's quite clearly our best 8 of recent times (professional era at least, I can't really comment before then) and his achievements prove it.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Larbre34 wrote: »

Heaslip has been a great player, but not as effective as in his breakthrough years, I would have no argument with Leinster declining to top-up IRFU salaries but its probably a case of simply cant afford to rather than an obstinate change of policy. If its a cold hard decision to hold onto O'Brien or Heaslip then it must be O'Brien as there are options to slot in for Heaslip at Club and National level should the need arise. IRFU did the right thing calling the bluff of Sexton's agent. As with Heaslip, all they can do is remind players of the extra-monetary benefits of playing under the system here, and the result of Sextons move should be a testament to the risks for those looking at the greener grass of France. If Jamie wants to go then stay out of a dutch auction and cut him loose, but let him depart with thanks and congratulations for the most decorated 7 or 8 year period an Irish forward ever had.

How has sextons move highlighted the risks of moving to France ?

former legend

leftleg wrote: »

In what way has he not been as effective?

He hasn't been as effective. He's been more effective.

leftleg

leftleg wrote: »

In what way has he not been as effective?

Nearly an hour later and still no reply on how hes not as effective as he was in his breakthrough years. I await the answer even though i doubt ill get any reply to this question.

Larbre34

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

How has sextons move highlighted the risks of moving to France ?

Excessive games, fatigue, reduced profile for Irish selection, frustration at the drop in training and organisational standards and success that a player leaving Leinster in particular will experience by joining just about any other club.

wicklowwonder

Larbre34 wrote: »

Excessive games, fatigue, reduced profile for Irish selection, frustration at the drop in training and organisational standards and success that a player leaving Leinster in particular will experience by joining just about any other club.

Sexton only had so much game time going into the November series as Racing two other 10 options got injured. Since November he has only played every second game or so. I think it's 4 starts in 8 or something including yesterday v Toulon.

Toulon, Heaslip's likely destination, have so much depth Heaslip will probably play less games than he does in Ireland. Heaslip is never injured so he actually plays a lot more rugby compared to say Sean O'Brien or Cian Healy or Sexton (before he left Leinster) or most other guaranteed Irish starters over the past 2 or 3 seasons.

thomond2006

Larbre34 wrote: »

Excessive games, fatigue, reduced profile for Irish selection, frustration at the drop in training and organisational standards and success that a player leaving Leinster in particular will experience by joining just about any other club.

These "excessive games" have been explained many times on here. Everything else you've said are assumptions.

vienne86

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Sexton only had so much game time going into the November series as Racing two other 10 options got injured. Since November he has only played every second game or so. I think it's 4 starts in 8 or something including yesterday v Toulon.

Toulon, Heaslip's likely destination, have so much depth Heaslip will probably play less games than he does in Ireland. Heaslip is never injured so he actually plays a lot more rugby compared to say Sean O'Brien or Cian Healy or Sexton (before he left Leinster) or most other guaranteed Irish starters over the past 2 or 3 seasons.

You are spot on here. The commentators on last night's game v Toulon remarked that it was quite some time since Sexton had started for Racing. I would not have blamed Racing for having him so busy early in the season - they really had no choice.

yimrsg

I think Leinster still need him at least for another year, but I don't think he'd accept 1 year offer. We're going to be losing 2 captains in BOD and Cullen come the end of the season and Jennings has shown sides of a decline too and in a fully fit HC side he'd be looking at a bench spot at best. SOB's injury alleviates that scenario somewhat. If Heaslip were to leave that would be 3 captains gone and Jennings on the bench.

For all the talk of Murphy being a replacement for Heaslip it's still a bit premature, his footwork at the back of the scrum against Ulster wasn't all that and were it not for some awful defending from Allen he wouldn't have scored his try. With the injury to SOB I think Murphy could come into contention there, he's cut from the same cloth as SOB and has probably the versatility to command at least a bench spot in the HC.

Ruddock could fill the void but it's only recently where he's overtaken McLaughlin for 6 and maybe his form could dip or Locky's could improve and we'd be in looking around for pack leaders. It'll be no easy task replacing Cullen and BOD as leaders and should Heaslip leave we'd would be without the stand out candidate for captaincy.

Big Nelly

If correct it will be a huge loss to Leinster but again are the IRFU planning on Jordi Murphy taking the step up for Leinster? heaslip as far as I am aware is one of the highest paid players for the IRFU so it would take a large chuck out of the wage bill

Also I think Heaslip as a player would want to move. He has done everything he can for Leinster and has won everything possible in the Irish game(outside of International). I think for a lot of the players the Rabo was a bit of a sore point over the last few years so winning that last season put a tick in the box.

As a plus Murphy has been playing well. Ruddock has also done well but is not an 8 even thou he has been played there. So do they see Ruddock as back up to Murphy?

leftleg

Larbre34 wrote: »

Excessive games, fatigue, reduced profile for Irish selection, frustration at the drop in training and organisational standards and success that a player leaving Leinster in particular will experience by joining just about any other club.

More cliches and second hand opinions lobbed out there.

Rightwing

Big Nelly wrote: »

If correct it will be a huge loss to Leinster but again are the IRFU planning on Jordi Murphy taking the step up for Leinster? heaslip as far as I am aware is one of the highest paid players for the IRFU so it would take a large chuck out of the wage bill

Also I think Heaslip as a player would want to move. He has done everything he can for Leinster and has won everything possible in the Irish game(outside of International). I think for a lot of the players the Rabo was a bit of a sore point over the last few years so winning that last season put a tick in the box.

As a plus Murphy has been playing well. Ruddock has also done well but is not an 8 even thou he has been played there. So do they see Ruddock as back up to Murphy?

The highest paid, a shrewd move from the IRFU.

John_C

Sexton only had so much game time going into the November series as Racing two other 10 options got injured.

Still, if the Leinster 2nd and 3rd choice players had gotten injured, Sexton would have been rested and Leinster would have had to make do.

There's definitely a difference between playing in France and Ireland.

phog

John_C wrote: »

Still, if the Leinster 2nd and 3rd choice players had gotten injured, Sexton would have been rested and Leinster would have had to make do.

There's definitely a difference between playing in France and Ireland.

A point that goes unnoticed or just simply ignored.

Tox56

John_C wrote: »

Still, if the Leinster 2nd and 3rd choice players had gotten injured, Sexton would still have been rested and Leinster would have had to make do.

There's definitely a difference between playing in France and Ireland.

WTF? Are you suggesting Cathal Marsh would have started instead of Sexton if both Madigan and Reid were injured (and describing Reid as 3rd choice 10 is painful enough, but I'm pretty sure that's what he was last season). Who would have benched?

If that had happened any more than once it would have been absolute insanity

thomond2006

John_C wrote: »

Still, if the Leinster 2nd and 3rd choice players had gotten injured, Sexton would have been rested and Leinster would have had to make do.

There's definitely a difference between playing in France and Ireland.

phog wrote: »

A point that goes unnoticed or just simply ignored.

Because it's something that is rare and Racing are taking it into account now.

The Player Management scheme hasn't exactly worked in keeping injuries among key players down so I'm not sure why anyone would hail it as a much better system.

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

Because it's something that is rare and Racing are taking it into account now.

The Player Management scheme hasn't exactly worked in keeping injuries among key players down so I'm not sure why anyone would hail it as a much better system.

Where have I hailed it as anything.

My point still stands.

Tox56

phog wrote: »

Where have I hailed it as anything.

My point still stands.

Last season it took just one 'injury' to Leinster's 2nd choice 10 for Sexton to be brought into the side (Madigan was forced to move to 15 because of back 3 injuries, so not an actual injury but it had the same effect). If Leinster were down both 2nd and 3rd choice 10s of course Sexton would be starting

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

Where have I hailed it as anything.

My point still stands.

I never said you did hail it, I was talking in general about how others do, like journalists that tow the IRFU line. Playing in France is not the sword of Damocles on a player's longevity. Look at Jonny Wilkinson who plays 30 matches a year for a couple of years and has barely picked up a scratch compared to his injury plague while in England.

Name an example where a 2nd and 3rd choice was out and the 1st choice still didn't play.

Big Nelly

Rightwing wrote: »

The highest paid, a shrewd move from the IRFU.

Now please correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Heaslip the highest paid and Sexton was just looking to get on a par with his wages and wasn't getting it? could be wrong

darragh_haven

If leinster want heaslip not to go to toulon, they don't have to stump up more cash, they don't have to say the french life wouldn't suit him etc....... all they have to say is "you do realise that you have to play with Delon Armitage every week!"

thomond2006

darragh_haven wrote: »

If leinster want heaslip not to go to toulon, they don't have to stump up more cash, they don't have to say the french life wouldn't suit him etc....... all they have to say is "you do realise that you have to play with Delon Armitage every week!"

Who refused to shake hands with your good mate JS. :mad:

vienne86

thomond2006 wrote: »

Who refused to shake hands with your good mate JS. :mad:

I think a couple of years in Toulon, in ANY job, would be wonderful.....except for Armitage.....that incident last night was just yuck. What a prat.

I saw a program on Sky one time about the English guys in Toulon....interestingly Johnny Wilkinson was interviewed separately to the others. He has clearly embraced the French way of life and loves it; but he must have worked hard at it, as getting integrated and accepted the way he has done is something that doesn't just happen. I have seen him interviewed on French TV too - the French love him. I wonder how Heaslip would handle living in south of France.

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

I never said you did hail it, I was talking in general about how others do, like journalists that tow the IRFU line. Playing in France is not the sword of Damocles on a player's longevity. Look at Jonny Wilkinson who plays 30 matches a year for a couple of years and has barely picked up a scratch compared to his injury plague while in England.

Name an example where a 2nd and 3rd choice was out and the 1st choice still didn't play.

Off the top of my head I can't but I remember in the McGahan era having a discussion with a rabid Leinster fan on another forum about Munster's poor use of Irish players during the rest window as he hadn't planned for an injury that happened during that rest window. I think it was Fla that I wanted to be allowed play but he had played the previous week and the Leinster fan wanted him rested as per protocol. Whoever it was, was rested.

Seamo87

Larbre34 wrote: »

Excessive games, fatigue, reduced profile for Irish selection, frustration at the drop in training and organisational standards and success that a player leaving Leinster in particular will experience by joining just about any other club.

Your wasting your breadth man, memories like a sieve!!
Just wait until 6 nations roll around, it's then we see the effects of not being centrally contracted!

phog

phog wrote: »

Off the top of my head I can't but I remember in the McGahan era having a discussion with a rabid Leinster fan on another forum about Munster's poor use of Irish players during the rest window as he hadn't planned for an injury that happened during that rest window. I think it was Fla that I wanted to be allowed play but he had played the previous week and the Leinster fan wanted him rested as per protocol. Whoever it was, was rested.

nice anecdote, thoroughly lacking in absolutely anything tangible worth discussing though.

So unfortunately your example is pretty much useless to us, and this request still remains completely unfilled.

thomond2006 wrote: »

I never said you did hail it, I was talking in general about how others do, like journalists that tow the IRFU line. Playing in France is not the sword of Damocles on a player's longevity. Look at Jonny Wilkinson who plays 30 matches a year for a couple of years and has barely picked up a scratch compared to his injury plague while in England.

Name an example where a 2nd and 3rd choice was out and the 1st choice still didn't play.

Sexton's start to the season is pretty much a fluke, and given the gametime he has seen since the other options have returned to fitness, is more than likely an example of why french teams don't 'flog' their players, and not the reverse.

Buer

Seamo87 wrote: »

Your wasting your breadth man, memories like a sieve!!
Just wait until 6 nations roll around, it's then we see the effects of not being centrally contracted!

He is wasting his breath because it's completely untrue. Give examples of foreign internationals playing lots in France. If you can't then that will prove the point fairly quickly.

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Sexton's start to the season is pretty much a fluke, and given the gametime he has seen since the other options have returned to fitness, is more than likely an example of why french teams don't 'flog' their players, and not the reverse.

It's interesting how people like Thornley were screaming about Sexton being flogged during the early part of the season. Now that the others have returned just as most predicted and he has a far reduced work load, GT has suddenly become a mute on the topic.

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

Off the top of my head I can't but I remember in the McGahan era having a discussion with a rabid Leinster fan on another forum about Munster's poor use of Irish players during the rest window as he hadn't planned for an injury that happened during that rest window. I think it was Fla that I wanted to be allowed play but he had played the previous week and the Leinster fan wanted him rested as per protocol. Whoever it was, was rested.

Tbf phog you can't really suggest an issue like this is simply ignored if you can't think of a clearcut example(s)! If you think of any later then do post them though, because I can't think of any myself.

case885

If this is true copeland would have been a great signing for Leinster or maybe standers lack of game time might persuade him to join leinster if hes wanted.

Buer

Copeland wouldn't be ahead of Murphy or SOB at 8. At Munster, he'll possibly be first choice in a year with Coughlan getting on.

case885

Buer wrote: »

Copeland wouldn't be ahead of Murphy or SOB at 8. At Munster, he'll possibly be first choice in a year with Coughlan getting on.

At least a good bench option, you couldnt be relying on murphy all the time and o brien covering 6 and 7.

Buer

case885 wrote: »

At least a good bench option, you couldnt be relying on murphy all the time and o brien covering 6 and 7.

They wouldn't really. Leinster have a glut of back row players. Murphy would be the specialist. Conan is apparently highly rated and coming out of the academy too. After that, Ruddock and SOB are both well experienced at 8. Even McLaughlin has started for us there once upon a time. If Auva'a goes, I'd expect a similar type of back up, Irish qualified 8 to be signed as someone to come in for just a few games each year also.

case885

case885 wrote: »

At least a good bench option, you couldnt be relying on murphy all the time and o brien covering 6 and 7.

Leinster (if rumours are to be believed) will at the very least have this cover next season

6 - McLaughlin, Ruddock, Ryan
7 - ?SOB?, Jennings, Ryan, Murphy, Leavy
8 - Murphy, ?SOB?, Ruddock, Au'uva Conan

--

No team could "be okay" with the prospect of losing a player like Heaslip, but I think that Leinster's current crop could certainly survive without any supplementation.

justsomebloke

I can't see Ryan sticking around to be truthful

Buer

justsomebloke wrote: »

I can't see Ryan sticking around to be truthful

He's probably the most likely to head off but I was delighted with his cameo the other night. Massive penalty win in our 22 late on too. It's the kind of showing that might convince MOC that he needs to be held onto. It was a similar cameo that saved Kevin McLaughlin's career with Leinster.

jamiedav2011

Buer wrote: »

He's probably the most likely to head off but I was delighted with his cameo the other night. Massive penalty win in our 22 late on too. It's the kind of showing that might convince MOC that he needs to be held onto. It was a similar cameo that saved Kevin McLaughlin's career with Leinster.

Yes had an excellent cameo alright two big turnovers I think.

gaius c

leftleg wrote: »

In what way has he not been as effective?

8 carries for 2 metres against England last year and 6 carries for 3 metres against Wales.

Deservedly dropped from the Lions for the considerably more effective Faletau.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

gaius c wrote: »

8 carries for 2 metres against England last year and 6 carries for 3 metres against Wales.

Deservedly dropped from the Lions for the considerably more effective Faletau.

He had poor six nations but using two games to show he's a bad player is as nonsensical as saying Faletau is "considerably" more effective. Heaslip had a fantastic end to last season and rightfully started the first two tests

former legend

Deleted User wrote: »

Leinster (if rumours are to be believed) will at the very least have this cover next season

6 - McLaughlin, Ruddock, Ryan
7 - ?SOB?, Jennings, Ryan, Murphy, Leavy
8 - Murphy, ?SOB?, Ruddock, Au'uva Conan

--

No team could "be okay" with the prospect of losing a player like Heaslip, but I think that Leinster's current crop could certainly survive without any supplementation.

I admire the optimism but you're including one player who is not really up to pro level (Auva'a), two guys who are excellent prospects but have zero senior appearances between them, you're counting Ruddock as an 8 when he's not really any good there...

gaius c

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

He had poor six nations but using two games to show he's a bad player is as nonsensical as saying Faletau is "considerably" more effective. Heaslip had a fantastic end to last season and rightfully started the first two tests

It's more than just two games.
Think he managed to get up to 2.5 metres per carry against Italy where he was completely outplayed by Parisse.
Remember him being bundled in touch (twice) against Wales in the RWC.
He's been largely muck since he got that ankle injury that he tried to play through (2010 I think).

For the highest paid player in the squad, that's not good enough and it would be completely unrealistic of him to expect anything other than a paycut from his employers.

Berticus

If rumour is true....

A massive thank you to Toulon for paying the significant wages of Heaslip.

A massive thank you to the IRFU for having the foresight of not overpaying an underperforming player and presumably instead use the savings to keep SOB and encourage the development of alternatives like Jordi Murphy.

As a Leinster and Ireland fan I am absolutely fine with this.

former legend

gaius c wrote: »

He's been largely muck since he got that ankle injury that he tried to play through (2010 I think).

Utter bollocks. Either lies or ignorance, I don't care which, but utter bollocks.