Tim Sherwood

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Ormus wrote: »

Will it explain to me why Harry Redknapp gets paid so much?

Because he is an excellent man manager, tactics alone won't make you successful, neither will man management, and neither will motivation. Add to that that the English league are among the least tactically advanced leagues of the major countries and it's easy to see how he has risen so much.

It speaks absolutely volumes though that the only relatively big club to give him a shot was Spurs, the clubs he has managed before, and indeed since, are relatively small clubs.

And "I'll throw on 2 very talented subs and see if that gives the team some fresh impetus" tells me everything I need to know about your thinking, you clearly don't have any understanding of tactics, and that's fair enough, most British and Irish people don't, it's not part of our footballing culture. However your views are just plain ignorant. I agree with you on a lot of things in other threads, but your stance on this is beyond comprehensible.

Ormus

THFC wrote: »

Because he is an excellent man manager, tactics alone won't make you successful, neither will man management, and neither will motivation. Add to that that the English league are among the least tactically advanced leagues of the major countries and it's easy to see how he has risen so much.

It speaks absolutely volumes though that the only relatively big club to give him a shot was Spurs, the clubs he has managed before, and indeed since, are relatively small clubs.

And "I'll throw on 2 very talented subs and see if that gives the team some fresh impetus" tells me everything I need to know about your thinking, you clearly don't have any understanding of tactics, and that's fair enough, most British and Irish people don't, it's not part of our footballing culture. However your views are just plain ignorant. I agree with you on a lot of things in other threads, but your stance on this is beyond comprehensible.

Alex Ferguson and Brian Clough. Neither were coaches. Neither would profess to know much about tactics.

Doesn't it speak volumes that they achieved such success without knowing the rules of zonal marking?

Or is it just because the English game is so old fashioned? What's that? They won 2 European Cups? Each?

Like it or not, the fact is that Mourinho just threw on two subs and hoped for the best. You can pretend there was more to it but there wasn't. You could probably come up with a plausible 5 page briefing on the reasons he brought them on, but it wouldn't change the real reason.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Ormus wrote: »

Alex Ferguson and Brian Clough. Neither were coaches. Neither would profess to know much about tactics.

Doesn't it speak volumes that they achieved such success without knowing the rules of zonal marking?

Clough coached in a different era.
Fergie was much more tactically astute than was led to believe, especially since the arrival of Wenger and more significantly Mourinho.

And I was referring to the website zonalmarking.net

Ormus wrote: »

Or is it just because the English game is so old fashioned? What's that? They won 2 European Cups? Each?

Fergie's biggest criticism was that he only won 2 CL titles despite being in charge of the biggest and richest club in the world for 20 odd years. Mourinho and Guardiola have won twice recently, both in a much shorter time frame than Fergie managed.

Ormus wrote: »

Like it or not, the fact is that Mourinho just threw on two subs and hoped for the best. You can pretend there was more to it but there wasn't. You could probably come up with a plausible 5 page briefing on the reasons he brought them on, but it wouldn't change the real reason.

That is absolute nonsense, total rubbish. Pretty much sums your views up tbh.

Ormus

THFC wrote: »

Clough coached in a different era.
Fergie was much more tactically astute than was led to believe, especially since the arrival of Wenger and more significantly Mourinho.

And I was referring to the website zonalmarking.net


Fergie's biggest criticism was that he only won 2 CL titles despite being in charge of the biggest and richest club in the world for 20 odd years. Mourinho and Guardiola have won twice recently, both in a much shorter time frame than Fergie managed.


That is absolute nonsense, total rubbish. Pretty much sums your views up tbh.

I think you ran out of facts and just settled for saying it's total rubbish.

Winning 2 European Cups / Champions Leagues despite tactics not being your forte says all you need to know about the importance of tactics in football. I'm not for a second saying that they don't matter. I'm just saying it's not that complex and it's not the be all and end all. If it was, Redknapp would never have gotten a job and Clough and Fergie would never have gotten a sniff of a European trophy.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Ormus wrote: »

I think you ran out of facts and just settled for saying it's total rubbish.

Sorry what? I'm the one running out of facts? You're the one that seems to think that a 2 time CL winning manager just throws on 2 subs and sees what happens. If you think I've ran out of facts you're completely deluded.

Ormus wrote: »

Winning 2 European Cups / Champions Leagues despite tactics not being your forte says all you need to know about the importance of tactics in football. I'm not for a second saying that they don't matter. I'm just saying it's not that complex and it's not the be all and end all. If it was, Redknapp would never have gotten a job and Clough and Fergie would never have gotten a sniff of a European trophy.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

You're not bursting my bubble, believe me, your flawed argument is apparent to everyone here. Have a look at winning CL managers since the dawn of the CL:
Heynckes
Di Matteo
Guardiola
Mourinho
Guardiola
Ferguson
Ancelotti
Rjikaard
Benitez
Mourinho
Ancelotti
Del Bosque
Ottmar Hitzfeld
Del Bosque


Fergie, despite being in charge of the biggest club in the world only managed two CLs in 20 odd years, hardly a commendable feat.

Look at all the managers in every big position in the world, with the exception of United, and report back to me. World Cup winning managers too.

It's so hard to debate with you because you only look at the arguments that suit you.

Ormus

THFC wrote: »

Sorry what? I'm the one running out of facts? You're the one that seems to think that a 2 time CL winning manager just throws on 2 subs and sees what happens. If you think I've ran out of facts you're completely deluded.


You're not bursting my bubble, believe me, your flawed argument is apparent to everyone here. Have a look at winning CL managers since the dawn of the CL:
Heynckes
Di Matteo
Guardiola
Mourinho
Guardiola
Ferguson
Ancelotti
Rjikaard
Benitez
Mourinho
Ancelotti
Del Bosque
Ottmar Hitzfeld
Del Bosque


Fergie, despite being in charge of the biggest club in the world only managed two CLs in 20 odd years, hardly a commendable feat.

Look at all the managers in every big position in the world, with the exception of United, and report back to me. World Cup winning managers too.

It's so hard to debate with you because you only look at the arguments that suit you.

But there were no facts in your previous message. That's not deluded. It's a fact. Get a grip man.

Not sure what you're getting at with that list of managers? There's only one Brit? There's also only one Dutchman and only 2 Germans. Zero French..

United might be the biggest club in the world in terms of turnover or something, but they've never been dominant as a football club. Football wise, the biggest clubs are Real, Barcelona and Bayern. Surely you know that?

I think Fergie did quite well to win 2 Champions Leagues.

If I look at every manager in the big positions in world football, I'll see mainly foreign managers. What does that tell me? It tells me firstly that there are more foreign managers than British managers. Not too strange, given that there are 70 million British people in the world, compared to 7 billion in the rest of the world.

It also tells me that chairmen favour foreign managers over British managers. Is that what I'm supposed to report back?

I've addressed every point you raised and tried to look at it from your point of view.

mushykeogh

Ormus wrote: »

Anyway, it's not that I'm saying formations are not important, just that they're not complex.

Formations on paper, simple, formations in practice, massively complex. In the last 12 months I have been involved in our underage squads at different levels and the depth of awareness they are trying to develop is fascinating. The players positions are varying depending on who has the ball, whether he goes left, right, forward, everything changes from one second to the next, players need to know where to go and where to react with each play, an awful lot of it is rehearsed, a midfield player will have numerous different positions to move into depend on the position of the full back with the ball, that in turn impacts the next midfielder etc etc, when done properly its amazing to see.
Have been to one premiership club and one Italian club in a work capacity and the tactical development from youth to first team is incredible.
I have only been involved in football at this capacity for the last year at it is a real eye opener. To be honest you only need to look at how many pro licence coaches the UK has compared to any football nation in Europe to see how behind the premiership is.

Ormus

mushykeogh wrote: »

Formations on paper, simple, formations in practice, massively complex. In the last 12 months I have been involved in our underage squads at different levels and the depth of awareness they are trying to develop is fascinating. The players positions are varying depending on who has the ball, whether he goes left, right, forward, everything changes from one second to the next, players need to know where to go and where to react with each play, an awful lot of it is rehearsed, a midfield player will have numerous different positions to move into depend on the position of the full back with the ball, that in turn impacts the next midfielder etc etc, when done properly its amazing to see.
Have been to one premiership club and one Italian club in a work capacity and the tactical development from youth to first team is incredible.
I have only been involved in football at this capacity for the last year at it is a real eye opener. To be honest you only need to look at how many pro licence coaches the UK has compared to any football nation in Europe to see how behind the premiership is.

Sounds like a cool experience, musta been interesting.

Just to reiterate, I do believe that tactics have a place in football. I just don't think they are complex and I don't think they are half as important as man management, motivation and good instincts. There are plenty of foreign managers in the Premiership and in continantal Europe whose teams still sometimes end up with 6 players ball watching at the near post while the ball is crossed to the man coming in at the back.

There are very few teams which move around in such disciplined formations as you describe. Maybe it's more of a thing they teach to youth teams who aren't yet comfortable enough to move around naturally.

Leinstersqspur

Ormus wrote: »

There are very few teams which move around in such disciplined formations as you describe. Maybe it's more of a thing they teach to youth teams who aren't yet comfortable enough to move around naturally.

Have you not been watching Spurs for the last 18 months? Or Ireland under the Trappatoni? Both extremely disciplined formations / systems.

A good example of a good players having a poor understanding of formations, tactics & discipline is Nabil Bentaleb v the Arsenal. Without the ball he was lost, he couldn't figure out what space to occupy, who to track and who to tackle. Wenger knew this and targeted him. Tactics.

Same way when United beat Arsenal 8-2. It wasn't ferguson saw a weak team and said "lads, go and have a go at them". He used tactics to attack their weaknesses.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Right, well, I'm not sure there's much point discussing this further..

Ormus

Leinstersqspur wrote: »

Have you not been watching Spurs for the last 18 months? Or Ireland under the Trappatoni? Both extremely disciplined formations / systems.

A good example of a good players having a poor understanding of formations, tactics & discipline is Nabil Bentaleb v the Arsenal. Without the ball he was lost, he couldn't figure out what space to occupy, who to track and who to tackle. Wenger knew this and targeted him. Tactics.

Same way when United beat Arsenal 8-2. It wasn't ferguson saw a weak team and said "lads, go and have a go at them". He used tactics to attack their weaknesses.

True, but those systems were possibly overdisciplined and suffered as a result.

I agree Bentaleb looked lost the other night. He doesn't seem to be a player with a natural football brain, able to use his instincts to guide him in his positioning. Still, he is young yet.

It's possible Wenger targeted him. I guess you could call that a tactic. Again, my point is that it's not very complex. Player X is inexperienced: Target Player X.

Leinstersqspur

Ormus wrote: »

It's possible Wenger targeted him. I guess you could call that a tactic. Again, my point is that it's not very complex. Player X is inexperienced: Target Player X.

As opposed to rugby?

DubPerryman

Ormus wrote: »

Player X is inexperienced: Target Player X.

It's not just about "targeting" Player X, it's about how you target Player X.

Do you target him by putting a man on him and dragging him around the pitch? Do you target him by playing the ball in triangles in his area, thus dragging him around that area? Do you target him by putting crunching tackles in on him and winding him up? Do you target him by etc. etc. etc.


The above is done 22 times around the pitch.

Ormus

Leinstersqspur wrote: »

As opposed to rugby?

Same thing as rugby in that respect I would say.

Ormus

DubPerryman wrote: »

It's not just about "targeting" Player X, it's about how you target Player X.

Do you target him by putting a man on him and dragging him around the pitch? Do you target him by playing the ball in triangles in his area, thus dragging him around that area? Do you target him by putting crunching tackles in on him and winding him up? Do you target him by etc. etc. etc.


The above is done 22 times around the pitch.

You don't drag a man around the pitch by putting a man on him.

You can play triangles around any player. 3 players will always have the beating of one.

Crunching tackles. Again, yes these are definitely tactics, but a child could come up with them. Actually children do come up with tactics like that in the playground.

Leinstersqspur

Ormus wrote: »

Rugby and american football are hugely complex tactical games. Football is not.

Ormus wrote: »

I've played quite a lot of football and I've never seen a tactical detail that my mother wouldn't grasp first time it was explained to her. Big contrast with Rugby in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormus
It's possible Wenger targeted him. I guess you could call that a tactic. Again, my point is that it's not very complex. Player X is inexperienced: Target Player X.
As opposed to rugby?

Ormus wrote: »

Same thing as rugby in that respect I would say.

You're making it up as you go along mate;)

Ormus

Leinstersqspur wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormus
It's possible Wenger targeted him. I guess you could call that a tactic. Again, my point is that it's not very complex. Player X is inexperienced: Target Player X.
As opposed to rugby?



You're making it up as you go along mate;)

You need to read what I wrote again.

I'll summarise where you went wrong. I said that rugby is more complex than football. Later you talked about the targeting of players. I said that the two sports are similar in that regard. You thought I meant that they're similar in every regard.

Hope that clears it up. If not, have another read.

Leinstersqspur

Ormus wrote: »

Just to reiterate, I do believe that tactics have a place in football. I just don't think they are complex and I don't think they are half as important as man management, motivation and good instincts. There are plenty of foreign managers in the Premiership and in continantal Europe whose teams still sometimes end up with 6 players ball watching at the near post while the ball is crossed to the man coming in at the back.

There are very few teams which move around in such disciplined formations as you describe. Maybe it's more of a thing they teach to youth teams who aren't yet comfortable enough to move around naturally.

And then there's this guy (think he won a few medals) who is clearly just telling the players to "run about a bit";);)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6YDl1dFI5g

Ormus

Leinstersqspur wrote: »

And then there's this guy (think he won a few medals) who is clearly just telling the players to "run about a bit";);)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6YDl1dFI5g

I can't access that link at the moment, not sure what it shows.

There are many coaches who will give players detailed instructions on what to do. I'm well aware of that. I'd imagine it's mainly just British managers who have achieved success while blatantly not bothering with detailed tactics.

My point is that the fact they have achieved success at all goes to show that tactics in football aren't that important and don't need to be complex.

jobeenfitz

Tim is doing better than I expected. thirteen points from a possible 15.

Sugarlumps

jobeenfitz wrote: »

Tim is doing better than I expected. thirteen points from a possible 15.

Best start by a Spurs manager yet, Swansea shall be a good test before the City game.

EdenHazard

just experimented with a 3-4-2-1 formation, chadli and lamela behind soldaders. vlad the impaler, kaboooom and verts in defence, dembtalab in midfield with a-ron and ericksen on either flank. worked a charm. to dare is to do.

mushykeogh

Does anyone else have the feeling that Tim has been very fortunate with fixtures/teams he has played against and it is about to unravel soon!

irishmover

mushykeogh wrote: »

Does anyone else have the feeling that Tim has been very fortunate with fixtures/teams he has played against and it is about to unravel soon!

Unfortunately yes.

Left Back on the Bench

Thought we'd lose to Southampton. We played well I thought. Arsenal knew how to expose our weaknesses and any good team will. We're very open, our defense isn't the strongest and Eriksen drifting in field leaves rose brutally exposed. We have been missing alot of first teamers. I think against any of the other teams around us they'll look to expose the 2 in the middle and our left side.we've been humiliated a few times this season though so I'll enjoy the ride and hope the 4-4-2 pays off

Bodie Doyle

mushykeogh wrote: »

Does anyone else have the feeling that Tim has been very fortunate with fixtures/teams he has played against and it is about to unravel soon!

Such a typical Spurs fan. The manager wins 4 out of 5 with 1 draw and we question the validity of the results due to the opposition. We deserved to win all those games and maybe were a little unfortunate not be beat WBA. You have to remember we won those games without Verts, Kaboul, Paulinho, Sandro, Townsend...... Give the manager praise where it is due ffs

Why would it unravel soon?

Sugarlumps

Bodie Doyle wrote: »

Such a typical Spurs fan. The manager wins 4 out of 5 with 1 draw and we question the validity of the results due to the opposition. We deserved to win all those games and maybe were a little unfortunate not be beat WBA. You have to remember we won those games without Verts, Kaboul, Paulinho, Sandro, Townsend...... Give the manager praise where it is due ffs

Why would it unravel soon?

My sentiments exactly.

White Heart Loon

Bodie Doyle wrote: »

Such a typical Spurs fan. The manager wins 4 out of 5 with 1 draw and we question the validity of the results due to the opposition. We deserved to win all those games and maybe were a little unfortunate not be beat WBA. You have to remember we won those games without Verts, Kaboul, Paulinho, Sandro, Townsend...... Give the manager praise where it is due ffs

Why would it unravel soon?

...and knocked out of 2 cups

jobeenfitz

White Heart Loon wrote: »

...and knocked out of 2 cups

Could be a blessing in disguise.

Bodie Doyle

White Heart Loon wrote: »

...and knocked out of 2 cups

The West Ham result was disappointing i agree but did anyone really expect us to beat Arsenal away with a depleted squad. Otherwise its all going well. Start of a new year lads - a bit of positivity wouldn't go amiss.