[Superthread] Mayweather vs Pacman **NO STREAMING REQUESTS**

Panic E

walshb wrote: »

Exactly what I was thinking. The offense from both men was mickey mouse. Mayweather's was every bit as weak as Pacquiao's. Close fight throughout.

For sure. That 'highlight reel' is pathetic though and is mostly missed or weak shots, no wonder everyone was pissed.

walshb

Mister Vain wrote: »

Did you not see the bodywork, effective aggression and power clips? He landed a lot more than a few Mickey mouse jabs.

Body work? Stretching in and barely connecting with pretty weak punches. I was very surprised that Floyd didn't once try to work in close when the opportunities presented themselves.

Mister Vain

walshb wrote: »

Body work? Stretching in and barely connecting with pretty weak punches. I was very surprised that Floyd didn't once try to work in close when the opportunities presented themselves.

The point is he landed more. Simple as that. I was more disappointed with Manny's performance tbh. Floyd fought exactly how I expected him to.

walshb

Mister Vain wrote: »

The point is he landed more. Simple as that. I was more disappointed with Manny's performance tbh. Floyd fought exactly how I expected him to.

Seemed to land more in your eyes is a better description.

Mister Vain

walshb wrote: »

Seemed to land more in your eyes is a better description.

Yep, and he obviously landed less in your eyes. See how that works? We could argue this all week, ohh wait... that's what we have been doing.

walshb

Mister Vain wrote: »

Yep, and he obviously landed less in your eyes. See how that works? We could argue this all week, ohh wait... that's what we have been doing.

I never really said who landed more. I am, or was debating the whole Floyd won, end of point. I didn't believe it's that simple, as I didn't see Floyd win without doubt. I am not alone in that opinion.

Panic E

walshb wrote: »

Seemed to land more in your eyes is a better description.

Exactly. Landing little piffy jabs (not landing them cleanly looks like) while on the run is not 'a defensive masterclass' in any case. Absolute gash.

Mister Vain wrote: »

The point is he landed more. Simple as that. I was more disappointed with Manny's performance tbh. Floyd fought exactly how I expected him to.

Yeah, like a little bitch! Landing more alone, or appearing to land more wins matches in the amateurs. It's not supposed to in a professional bout.

Mister Vain

walshb wrote: »

I never really said who landed more. I am, or was debating the whole Floyd won, end of point. I didn't believe it's that simple, as I didn't see Floyd win without doubt. I am not alone in that opinion.

Well can we not just agree to disagree then? This is just going around circles.

Panic E wrote: »

Yeah, like a bitch! Landing more, or appearing to land more even is what wins matches in the amateurs, it's not supposed to as a professional...

The man has never been defeated in 48 professional fights. I think he is doing something right.

walshb

Mister Vain wrote: »

Well can we not just agree to disagree then? This is just going around circles.
.

I suppose we can.

Panic E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QI52vn-l9A

darced

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walshb

Panic E wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QI52vn-l9A

Exactly what I am hearing so much of. People crediting and praising defence. That's fine, but it cannot be used as a stick to beat Manny with. Defending is a skill, but aggression and wanting to make a fight of it also should be praised. I felt Manny was the one wanting to make a fight of it.

That doesn't mean Floyd should stand and trade and possibly lose, but also, he shouldn't be getting scored or praised for only defending.

Defending whilst also making a fight of it and beating your foe with offense is what I want. I didn't get that with Floyd , at least not to the level where it was so clear cut that he could only be considered the winner.

walshb

darced wrote: »

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You scored with a huge Manny bias in mind? Am I right with this interpretation?

Panic E

Mister Vain wrote: »

The man has never been defeated in 48 professional fights. I think he is doing something right.

Yeah. It's called handpicking opponents (cherry picking) as anyone with even a passing interest knows.

The guy hasn't fought one person who was an elite fighter in their prime and at their best weight. (all 3)

darced

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darced

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walshb

darced wrote: »

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Okey doke.

darced

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Panic E

darced wrote: »

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Don't worry, I will be doing that. What criteria did you use to score the fight?

Yes, he was throwing out the jab to stop Pacquaio from coming in. Defensive 101

Manny did land the harder shots. Floyd's hardest shot was a right hook to the neck

walshb

Khan is not ruled out for September.

"“Floyd only fights in mid- September and Ramadan ends a little earlier this year (July 17) which helps. It gives me enough time to get the training done.”

Surprise, surprise. Amir has realised that if he wants this fight – which he has for all intents and purposes been begging for for the last 2 years – then he will have to accommodate Floyd and not the other way around. I think everyone in boxing could have told Khan that a while back."

http://www.boxing247.com/boxing-news/khan-u-turns-can-fight-mayweather-in-september/41120

I'd love to see it. Will Floyd think of it?

Panic E

walshb wrote: »

Exactly what I am hearing so much of. People crediting and praising defence. That's fine, but it cannot be used as a stick to beat Manny with. Defending is a skill, but aggression and wanting to make a fight of it also should be praised. I felt Manny was the one wanting to make a fight of it.

Agreed. Defense is only 1/4 of the game, Floyd is good at it but half of his defense is built on dirty tactics. Just keeping an aggressive smaller opponent off of you with your longer reach is actually doing nothing. Manny was right. Floyd ran backwards and dodged left and right all night with his arm held out long, while his one armed 'midget' opponent chased him around the ring. It was a circus act. Anyway, I think Henson made his point well in that clip. It's the same point again.

walshb

A very good point. Some look at Mayweather not getting hit and think great defense. I look at it in that fight and think desperation defense. Mayweather can look great whilst defending. Mostly the other night it was more the desperation variety. That doesn't impress me. I know, the bottom line is he is not getting hit, but there is still the quality and aesthetics of it all. Doing it in style and with offense behind it is the real true skill in my view. Just moving backwards and jumping out of the way and hugging and ducking so low is not for me all that skilled. None of the commentators wanted to touch on this.

Mister Vain

Panic E wrote: »

Yeah. It's called handpicking opponents (cherry picking) as anyone with even a passing interest knows.

The guy hasn't fought one person who was an elite fighter in their prime and at their best weight. (all 3)

Well yeah I can't argue with the cherry picking. One thing I hate is how much control he has in the sport. Like the whole gloves controversy with the Maidana fight. It's Floyd's way or the highway. That's not to say he hasn't been tested though. One thing I'll say about him is he has a great ability to adapt to whatever is put in front of him. The brawlers like Hattan and Maidana. The fighters with more finesse like Mosley and Del La Hoya, none of them could break the so called MayVinci code. As much as I dislike him and how much influence he has in the sport, he is still one hell of a talented boxer.

ThunderCat

darced wrote: »

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I rewatched the first couple of rounds again last night and the first round is a draw for me. I couldn't make a case for either fighter getting it and I just wish in rounds like that the judges score it the same rather than always going with one side or another.

magma69

Panic E wrote: »

Yeah. It's called handpicking opponents (cherry picking) as anyone with even a passing interest knows.

The guy hasn't fought one person who was an elite fighter in their prime and at their best weight. (all 3)

Diego Corrales.

Mister Vain

walshb wrote: »

A very good point. Some look at Mayweather not getting hit and think great defense. I look at it in that fight and think desperation defense. Mayweather can look great whilst defending. Mostly the other night it was more the desperation variety. That doesn't impress me. I know, the bottom line is he is not getting hit, but there is still the quality and aesthetics of it all. Doing it in style and with offense behind it is the real true skill in my view. Just moving backwards and jumping out of the way and hugging and ducking so low is not for me all that skilled. None of the commentators wanted to touch on this.

I wouldn't call it desperation defense. He was clever and elusive. Manny needed to be an effective aggressor to stand a chance and he wasn't. Look at the first Maidana fight. That was pressure, albeit dirty at times, but as I said, Floyd can adapt to these situations.

walshb

Mister Vain wrote: »

Well yeah I can't argue with the cherry picking. One thing I hate is how much control he has in the sport. Like the whole gloves controversy with the Maidana fight. It's Floyd's way or the highway. That's not to say he hasn't been tested though. One thing I'll say about him is he has a great ability to adapt to whatever is put in front of him. The brawlers like Hattan and Maidana. The fighters with more finesse like Mosley and Del La Hoya, none of them could break the so called MayVinci code. As much as I dislike him and how much influence he has in the sport, he is still one hell of a talented boxer.

I think a lot is made of this adapting. He adapted to Maidana, but he was still very uncomfortable for large parts of the fight. Maidana is a slugger/brawler. Khan beat him. Others beat him, yet the supposed P4P best, and TBE didn't do anything better really.

He did adapt to Mosley, and older and well faded version. I still think Floyd beats any Mosley by the way.

He adapted to Oscar? I could say that Oscar adapted to him. That fight was razor close in many people's eyes. The judges eyes too.

Hatton? He was a firm favorite there. I picked Hatton to beat him. I was wrong. But Hatton was a SLW moving up.

I don't think he has adapted to really great opponents. His biggest win was over Oscar.

Add in Cotto and Canelo whom I never felt would be huge threats. They are just not great.

I know it feels like I am bashing Floyd, but we need to asses in detail his career. He claims TBE. That deserves serious assessment.

walshb

Mister Vain wrote: »

I wouldn't call it desperation defense. He was clever and elusive. Manny needed to be an effective aggressor to stand a chance and he wasn't. Look at the first Maidana fight. That was pressure, albeit dirty at times, but as I said, Floyd can adapt to these situations.

Floyd really struggled to adapt to Marcos, and actually moaned a fair bit. A real skilled artist with defense and offense, like a Pea or Toney would have eaten Maidana alive, because both aren't afraid of getting hit the odd time to deliver their beating. I think Floyd can be like that, but he chooses to protect his face way more. In doing this his performance suffers more. If he actually relaxed a wee bit more I believe he could get his shots off better and have more success and an easier time.

But, he is older and a bit slower now, it is to be somewhat expected. In saying this he doesn't deserve to be lauded for the performances.

Late 20s early 30s cicra 140 lbs Floyd probably eats Maidana alive.

walshb

magma69 wrote: »

Diego Corrales.

One of boxing's greatest all round displays. Top 5 I have ever seen.

Mister Vain

walshb wrote: »

Floyd really struggled to adapt to Marcos, and actually moaned a fair bit. A real skilled artist with defense and offense, like a Pea or Toney would have eaten Maidana alive, because both aren't afraid of getting hit the odd time to deliver their beating. I think Floyd can be like that, but he chooses to protect his face way more. In doing this his performance suffers more. If he actually relaxed a wee bit more I believe he could get his shots off better and have more success and an easier time.

Relaxed? I don't think I've ever seen a more relaxed fighter than Floyd.

I agree with some of the points you made though. The Del La Hoya fight was very close. He was uncomfortable against Maidana and I wouldn't go as far as to say he is TBE. The best of this generation maybe, but not TBE.

Panic E

magma69 wrote: »

Diego Corrales.

Corrales had to drop 30lbs for that for that fight.

walshb

Mister Vain wrote: »

Relaxed? I don't think I've ever seen a more relaxed fighter than Floyd.

I agree with some of the points you made though. The Del La Hoya fight was very close. He was uncomfortable against Maidana and I wouldn't go as far as to say he is TBE. The best of this generation maybe, but not TBE.

Lately in his bouts he seems wound up and unsure of what approach to take. Maidana really ruffled him. I think Floyd could have fought and reacted differently. He wasn't the same cool and relaxed man under the pressure.

He is older and a bit slower now, as well as IMO not being as free and fluid with his punching. His attacks and punching seems a lot less convicted and certain. Synchronicity in Floyd is suffering. For me he is noticeably off his prime. Still fast, tough and intelligent, just not as convincing or energetic or authoritative. Manny should really have been shut out, hurt, hit a lot more and bullied. He wasn't. Not close. For that Mayweather really disappointed for me.

magma69

Panic E wrote: »

Corrales had to drop 30lbs for that for that fight.

130 was his best weight. He was kicking ass at that weight before Mayweather and won a world title at the weight after Mayweather.

walshb

Panic E wrote: »

Corrales had to drop 30lbs for that for that fight.

I hate to take praise away from a sublime Mayweather display, but Diego was like a mummy in the ring. He could not let his hands go at all. Credit to Floyd for part of that, but Diego that night was pretty poor, looked it to me. Like he was sleeping through the beating.

Panic E

magma69 wrote: »

130 was his best weight. He was kicking ass at that weight before Mayweather and won a world title at the weight after Mayweather.

Corrales wanted the fight at 135 himself. He had a lot of personal and legal problems at the time and wasn't in training much.

He ended up cutting over 20lbs a week before the fight so was drained as it gets. Its the last time Floyd was an underdog also.

darced

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walshb

darced wrote: »

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Completely controlled? This is what I mean as regards Floyd's praise. How was Manny completely controlled? Neither of them did very much, yet Manny is the one who is getting completely controlled? This is bonkers. There was barely a clean connection the whole rd ( a feel out rd from both) and we have a case of Manny getting completely controlled and out landed?

ThunderCat

darced wrote: »

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I agree he did very little, but Floyd did very little either. That's why I couldn't make a case for either man winning the round.

Panic E

Wtf lol, 'completely controlled and oulanded' is a ridiculous statement to make.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaq0CGoRZs0

Granted, it's not in HD & slo-mo but I'm with ThunderCat. No clear winner here.

walshb

Sorry, but anyone watching that rd and saying that either man was controlling or out-landing needs specsavers. About as even a rd as possible. And I don't give a fcuk what compu box says. Floyd landed what appeared the best shot in the round at 61 seconds in. Half connecting and half glancing. Apart from that one shot, both men simply touched each other. As for Floyd "completely controlling" the rd or Manny? Ridiculous

Panic E

walshb wrote: »

Floyd landed what appeared the best shot in the round at 61 seconds in. Half connecting and half glancing.

That appears to be the only thing of note as the crowd reacts. I watched it back ten times stopping and pausing, it doesn't connect cleanly at all.

darced wrote: »

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If round 1 is anything to go by your claim is kinda null and void dude? Lol anyway, one would have to assume your overall assessment is the same.

darced

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walshb

darced wrote: »

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C'mon, as if HD is going to change anything. You said Mayweather completely controlled the round. I don't care if it's bog standard 70s tv or plasma 4k, that is simply not close to being true.

Panic E

darced wrote: »

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I will do, and in slow motion thanks. Why are you recommending back to me what I already suggested first here earlier on?

I hate when people do that. Also, where did I say Mayweather only landed 2 body shots? He landed a good counter forearm.

darced

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Panic E

darced wrote: »

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I never said anything about 2 body shots?

Panic E

darced wrote: »

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Oscar for example? Manny moved up 2 weight classes from 135 to 145. The Cotto fight was at 145, he was champion at 147 (hardly a big deal)

Margarito? Contracted at 151, Margarito had like +20lbs on fight night. I presume those are the fights you are talking about. What's to criticise?

He did become a household name due to his spectacular performances but you have to remember it, he came up in weight to make those fights.

Two of those guys he beat at catchweight's Floyd was ducking at the time, plus he is a full weight class smaller than Floyd now even. Just saying...

Chrissybhoy

Panic E wrote: »

Oscar for example? Manny moved up 2 weight classes from 135 to 145. The Cotto fight was at 145, he was champion at 147 (hardly a big deal)

Margarito? Contracted at 151, Margarito had like +20lbs on fight night. I presume those are the fights you are talking about. What's to criticise?

He did become a household name due to his spectacular performances but you have to remember it, he came up in weight to make those fights.

Two of those guys he beat at catchweight's Floyd was ducking at the time, plus he is a full weight class smaller than Floyd now even. Just saying...

How did floyd become a household name ?

Panic E

Chrissybhoy wrote: »

How did floyd become a household name ?

I dunno, Beiber? Or L'il Dwayne Lol. TMZ maybe? WWE probably helped. I'm not sure what you are getting at

Top Rank and HBO were building him up and he became well known after he fought Oscar if thats what you mean...

Chrissybhoy

Oh so the way he boxed his way through super featherweight and JW up to WW had noting got to do with. Go look at Mayweathers fights from the start of his career come back then and tell me what you think.