Diving/Simulation

Morzadec

Would genuinely like to know what those advocating retrospective banning would do with the Gerrard in Istanbul case.

NIMAN

Football is now a game played by 22 highly paid professionals who spend a lot of a 90min game trying to cheat their way to victory (whilst wearing RESPECT on their sleeves).

Next time you are watching a game, just watch how all players now appeal for throw-ins, even when its crystal clear that its not theirs. Its now so ingrained they just appeal for everything if it gets an edge.

GLaDOS

Morzadec wrote: »

Because if you only ban the very obvious, stonewall, 100% no doubt, dives (which are very rare), and then make the decision not to ban the half-dives and grey areas (which I believe are hard to ban) then it constitutes an official review, a study of the "dive" in slow motion, various angles etc... At the end of that if the diving commission say 'there was no dive' then they are saying it should have been a penalty, calling into question the referees decision and essentially saying that is fair game.

Simply state that the panel have to be 100% confident it was a dive otherwise there is no ban. Half dives can be judged as inconclusive. Not necessarily accepted, but not actionable under the rules. Not guilty as opposed to innocent.

It's not perfect, but still better than doing nothing.

Half divers have free reign anyway. At worst it's generally judged to not be a fowl. Rarely yellow carded.

Morzadec wrote: »

Would genuinely like to know what those advocating retrospective banning would do with the Gerrard in Istanbul case.

Would probably judge it inconclusive and move onto the next case. the law doesn't have to catch every single diver but at least lay down some sort of marker that going down with no contact is unacceptable.

GLaDOS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVtYWd5TRS4

This is the type of dive that could be cut out by retrospective video. There's no contact, it can be seen from different angles clearly. It's definitely an attempt to con the referee. So should be ban worthy.

Morzadec

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Simply state that the panel have to be 100% confident it was a dive otherwise there is no ban. Half dives can be judged as inconclusive. Not necessarily accepted, but not actionable under the rules. Not guilty as opposed to innocent.

It's not perfect, but still better than doing nothing.

Half divers have free reign anyway. At worst it's generally judged to not be a fowl. Rarely yellow carded.


Would probably judge it inconclusive and move onto the next case. the law doesn't have to catch every single diver but at least lay down some sort of marker that going down with no contact is unacceptable.

If it was going to work, it would have to be in this manner - 3 options of Guilty, Cleared, or Inconclusive. The thing is that over 90% of cases would be ruled inconclusive, and the players would in some way be vindicated for their half dives

GLaDOS

They're vindicated anyway when it pays off in penalties/free kicks/red cards that lead to points. As it stands they're just ignoring the problem anyway.

Paully D

The NBA introduced a system to combat players ''flopping'' looking for fouls. Their punishments are listed below:

Violation 1: $5,000 fine
Violation 2: $10,000 fine
Violation 3: $15,000 fine
Violation 4: $30,000 fine

If a player violates the anti-flopping rule five times or more, he will be subject to discipline that is reasonable under the circumstances, including an increased fine and/or suspension.

It's not really feasible to give say a youth team player a £5,000 as they won't be making that sort of money, but maybe for the Premier League fining the clubs would start to stamp it out? First time offence, £50,000 fine for the club, second £100,000 and so on.

When you start getting to violation two onwards it starts costing clubs proper money.

Thoughts?

Liam O

What if a player makes a reckless challenge and the player with the ball sees it coming and dives away or jumps up to avoid the contact? Who's in the wrong in these situations?

I don't really like seeing it but I don't see it as being the biggest problems in the game. A lot of the players that do it would be some of the most fouled players in the league so it would help them prevent injury to anticipate contact. Ronaldo was getting kicked up and down grounds for years and was relatively injury free. He would never really do an out and out dive but a lot of the time he would see the dodgy tackle coming and brace himself for it.

Guy:Incognito

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

So let's just punish divers. With yellow cards, like we already do. Refs will make some poor calls in the same way that they do with bad tackles and cynical shirt pulling and everything else. They'll also get loads right. Why go nuclear on diving? The provisions in place are enough. Maybe refs need to use them more but that's another discussion.

Bad tackles are looked at after the fact if refs miss them, so why not diving too?

EuropeanSon

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Bad tackles are looked at after the fact if refs miss them, so why not diving too?

Because the worst case scenario from bad tackles is a lot worse, and eradicating them is much more important than eradicating diving.

Guy:Incognito

EuropeanSon wrote: »

Because the worst case scenario from bad tackles is a lot worse, and eradicating them is much more important than eradicating diving.

So now were at the "have you no real criminals to be catching Gard?" stage? Only when the drug lords/murderers/rapists are all caught do you bother with the smaller stuff?

EuropeanSon

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So now were at the "have you no real criminals to be catching Gard?" stage? Only when the drug lords/murderers/rapists are all caught do you bother with the smaller stuff?

Essentially, yes. Especially when the investment required to catch the petty thieves is better spent elsewhere.

PhlegmyMoses

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Bad tackles are looked at after the fact if refs miss them, so why not diving too?

Bad tackles result in suspensions and injuries. Diving does not. They aren't on the same disciplinary scale as each other. If you think it should be, more than say shirt pulling in the box to prevent a player from scoring or a cynical foul in a dangerous situation, then you'll have to explain it better than "because it looks bad and it's not a masculine thing to do".

COYVB

Liam O wrote: »

What if a player makes a reckless challenge and the player with the ball sees it coming and dives away or jumps up to avoid the contact? Who's in the wrong in these situations?

Because usually if he's looking for a foul he'll do about 15 rolls on the ground, scream and wave his hands around like he's been shot

The ones getting out of the way tend to get back up straight away and look to play on

maximoose

Blatter has proposed an idea

Liam O

Liam O wrote: »

What if a player makes a reckless challenge and the player with the ball sees it coming and dives away or jumps up to avoid the contact? Who's in the wrong in these situations?

I don't really like seeing it but I don't see it as being the biggest problems in the game. A lot of the players that do it would be some of the most fouled players in the league so it would help them prevent injury to anticipate contact. Ronaldo was getting kicked up and down grounds for years and was relatively injury free. He would never really do an out and out dive but a lot of the time he would see the dodgy tackle coming and brace himself for it.

Avoiding contact is fine, avoiding contact then barrel-rolling 15 yards while clutching your leg isn't.

When people are neutral watching a match on TV they have a few better rate of identifying dives and "manufactured contact" than referees for some reason. There really are times watching football that one thinks most referees can't possibly have ever played the game at any level to make the decisions they do.

COYVB

COYVB wrote: »

Because usually if he's looking for a foul he'll do about 15 rolls on the ground, scream and wave his hands around like he's been shot

The ones getting out of the way tend to get back up straight away and look to play on

Hadn't even read this when I made post :P Until they do something about dissent I have no problem with the player getting up and complaining about the challenge either.

matrim

There are 2 sides to this, players need to stop falling over at nothing but refs need to start giving the fouls without the player going to ground.

In the Villa - Sunderland match at the weekend Ki was fouled in the box but stayed on his feet and lost the ball to a villa player. If he went down he would have gotten the peno. Just because you don't fall to the ground doesn't mean that you souldn't get the decision.

googled eyes

NOW I'M NOT HAVING A DIG BUT


Pulled from that BBC article.

Premier League bookings for simulation (from August 2008)
Gareth Bale - 7
Fernando Torres - 3
Adnan Januzaj - 3
Liam Lawrence - 2
David Bentley - 2
Ashley Young - 2
Luis Suarez - 2
Daniel Sturridge - 2
Javier Hernandez - 2
Oscar - 2
Andy Carroll - 2
Emmanuel Eboue - 2
Source: Opta

Moyes would want to pull Januzaj aside and tell him to sort himself out. 3 of his 4 yellows are for simulation, he's only played half a season.

Mr.Micro

I hope that FIFA actually do something about it now and it's not just empty talk. A three match ban would prove a very effective cure IMO, each time a player is found to have dived or simulated injury. Video footage could be used where possible, to aid the officials, or indeed the player. Human error would always be a factor of course but there has to be some degree of uncertainty.

Richard Hillman

I would like to see retrospective bans for people who have clearly dived and there is no argument of that the player was just trying to get out of the way (as was seen with Bale, who I think had a genuine claim).

I would also like to see panels set up to give retrospective yellow cards for holding and shirt pulling in the box. Those yellows would tot up very quickly and it would stop if the defensive players had to sit out a 1 match ban every 5-6 games. 2 shirt pulls in a game would be 2 yellows and a red, meaning an immediate 1 game ban.

OR

Referees could stop cheating and pretending that they dont see the holding/shirt pulls and give a penalty

niallo27

googled eyes wrote: »

NOW I'M NOT HAVING A DIG BUT


Pulled from that BBC article.



Moyes would want to pull Januzaj aside and tell him to sort himself out. 3 of his 4 yellows are for simulation, he's only played half a season.

One of then yellows for Suarez wasn't wrongly given to him as well. He was clearly fouled. He really isn't that bad but no one can have a conversation about diving without mentioning him.

Liam O

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I hope that FIFA actually do something about it now and it's not just empty talk. A three match ban would prove a very effective cure IMO, each time a player is found to have dived or simulated injury. Video footage could be used where possible, to aid the officials, or indeed the player. Human error would always be a factor of course but there has to be some degree of uncertainty.

That would be anarchy. How on earth are you going to judge who simulates injury? A punishment 3 times harsher than a red card? That's fair I guess...

As soon as refs start giving proper protection to these players they won't do it as much. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that they all do it because they'd rather not risk injury and potentially help their team. Sure wasn't letting an attacker "know you're there" by hacking him down early in the game when the ref is less likely to produce a card a staple of the English game for years? Not much talked about that, but then it's far more "masculine" I guess.

BMJD

niallo27 wrote: »

One of then yellows for Suarez wasn't wrongly given to him as well. He was clearly fouled. He really isn't that bad but no one can have a conversation about diving without mentioning him.

More recently, when he goes down he often doesn't start waving the hands looking for the decision. A lot of the youtube clips don't show the players' reaction after the incident, which imo is crucial because it is quite easy for a player to go down with minimal contact when they are at full pace, or changing direction, for example. Multiple camera angles and slow motion can distort that somewhat. I'm not saying that all alleged diving can be explained away but I don't believe that it is as bad as some make out.

I think retrospective punishment is a slippery slope, as many have already said, why only target simulation?

The likes of this is criminal and should have been punished:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiW0IPrv1Ro

fullstop

niallo27 wrote: »

One of then yellows for Suarez wasn't wrongly given to him as well. He was clearly fouled. He really isn't that bad but no one can have a conversation about diving without mentioning him.

One of Torres' too. He was hacked down when pretty much clean through and got a second yellow for it and got sent off! Ashley Young should have a lot more than 2.

Ordinary man

Just want to bring this back to life since suarez is the latest topic instead of an united player. Do liverpool fans still hold the same views and would be happy to see suarez banned on review as some here previously suggested?

joe123

Ordinary man wrote: »

Just want to bring this back to life since suarez is the latest topic instead of an united player. Do liverpool fans still hold the same views and would be happy to see suarez banned on review as some here previously suggested?

Well personally I think it was a penalty.

If this was any other player there'd be nothing said about it. Debatable pen, but it was on imo.

Ordinary man

Ordinary man wrote: »

Just want to bring this back to life since suarez is the latest topic instead of an united player. Do liverpool fans still hold the same views and would be happy to see suarez banned on review as some here previously suggested?

Ban him for what? The keeper made contact. Some of Suarez's antics the start of 2012-2013 were embaressing. He's been seriously clean with regards diving 2nd half of last season and this.

Players like young and that Janzuni are the leaders in the league this season by a distance.

AdamD

rarnes1 wrote: »

Ban him for what? The keeper made contact. Some of Suarez's antics the start of 2012-2013 were embaressing. He's been seriously clean with regards diving 2nd half of last season and this.

Players like young and that Janzuni are the leaders in the league this season by a distance.

The contact is pretty irrelevant when he dives before it even happens.


The contact argument is bollocks anyway, it can still be a dive.

AdamD

AdamD wrote: »

The contact is pretty irrelevant when he dives before it even happens.


The contact argument is bollocks anyway, it can still be a dive.

Of course it can.

He's still not the worst offender by a long way despite what the the ABS members say

Kirby

joe123 wrote: »

Well personally I think it was a penalty.

If this was any other player there'd be nothing said about it. Debatable pen, but it was on imo.

He's made his mind up to dive a second before any of it happens. Whether there was contact with the keeper or not (which is debatable but irrelevant) its still a dive.

Kirby

Kirby wrote: »

He's made his mind up to dive a second before any of it happens. Whether there was contact with the keeper or not (which is debatable but irrelevant) its still a dive.

It was no dive.

The contact was debatable?

Love it

Kirby

rarnes1 wrote: »

It was no dive.

It was a dive. Any contact that was made was not enough to make a player go down which can be seen from the replay. He could have stayed on his feet. He didn't. Dive.

You might "love it" but I hate it. I'd prefer to not see cheating at every premier league game and then see it defended by "fans".

citytillidie

There you go pic of the contact, right knee on right foot

Kirby

Kirby wrote: »

It was a dive. Any contact that was made was not enough to make a player go down which can be seen from the replay. He could have stayed on his feet. He didn't. Dive.

You might "love it" but I hate it. I'd prefer to not see cheating at every premier league game and then see it defended by "fans".

Who said I love cheating? I hate it. It'll never go away unless it's punished and FIFA/UEFA/The FA are hopeless so I'll be expecting nothing from them.

You not watching your team play?

Arrow.

citytillidie wrote: »

There you go pic of the contact, right knee on right foot

Besides, you can see it better on the video from the front where there was zero contact.

He dived. Young dives. Rooney dives. Get over it.


If that blurred out atrocity was anything to go by, then Guzan's arm is behind Suarez.

Must. Try. Harder.

Kirby

rarnes1 wrote: »

Who said I love cheating? I hate it. It'll never go away unless it's punished and FIFA/UEFA/The FA are hopeless so I'll be expecting nothing from them.

You not watching your team play?

Well when I stated that Suarez dived, you responded with that old chestnut of "love it" so one can only assume you love diving, no?:P

You are excusing cheating by claiming suarez didn't dive.....coz he's your man. Instead of saying "Well he's brilliant and it's great that he's a pool player but that was clearly a dive and I wish he wouldn't do it".....you argue about contact and so forth and make excuses.

People arguing about contact and which part of Guzan's body hit in photo's are missing the point. There can be no contact or loads of contact. That doesn't change the dive. Plenty of players are legitimately fouled during a game but dive anyway. You don't need replays to see it. Dives are obvious and can nearly always be spotted live. Such as this Suarez one.

And my team aren't playing at the minute. I am watching united getting spanked though. Eto'o hat trick.

Kirby

Kirby wrote: »

Well when I stated that Suarez dived, you responded with that old chestnut of "love it" so one can only assume you love diving, no?:P

You are excusing cheating by claiming suarez didn't dive.....coz he's your man. Instead of saying "Well he's brilliant and it's great that he's a pool player but that was clearly a dive and I wish he wouldn't do it".....you argue about contact and so forth and make excuses.

People arguing about contact and which part of Guzan's body hit in photo's are missing the point. There can be no contact or loads of contact. That doesn't change the dive. Plenty of players are legitimately fouled during a game but dive anyway. You don't need replays to see it. Dives are obvious and can nearly always be spotted live. Such as this Suarez one.

And my team aren't playing at the minute. I am watching united getting spanked though. Eto'o hat trick.

I've lambasted Suarez before over his dives. The keeper was insane to come out like he did. It was always going to be a pen.

You're a Utd fan? You spend all your time in there don't you not? Who you support then?

Kirby

rarnes1 wrote: »

I've lambasted Suarez before over his dives. The keeper was insane to come out like he did. It was always going to be a pen.

You're a Utd fan? You spend all your time in there don't you not? Who you support then?

Nope. Not a united fan. And I spend time in all the super threads. I've been accused of being a fan by everyone in the superthreads because of it. I think people who recognise me assumes I support some non league team at this stage. :P

Kirby

Kirby wrote: »

Nope. Not a united fan. And I spend time in all the super threads. I've been accused of being a fan by everyone in the superthreads because of it. I think people who recognise me assumes I support some non league team at this stage. :P

Ah right, just presumed you were.

Morzadec

Another perfect example of the point I was making earlier in the thread.

We have what most would consider a dive, yet some are arguing the opposite, and some pundits/commentators are also backing the refs decision.

So if there was retrospective action, what would happen? Very decent chance Suarez gets off the hook and his dive/going to ground easy is justified and vindicated as a genuine penalty

Corholio

If some 'pundits' had their way, a goalkeeper running from his line would result in a yellow card and a penalty.

death1234567

Morzadec wrote: »

We have what most would consider a dive, yet some are arguing the opposite, and some pundits/commentators are also backing the refs decision.

This is because nothing has been done for so long. People are starting to justify what were (*and still are*) blatant dives. Diving has become part of the game, how often do you here "should have gone down", "he's being clever there" etc. The cancer has been allowed to grow too big and now there's no going back.

BMJD

Are we going to protect players from reckless challenges too or are we just looking to get one up on Luis? He gets lumped out of it in pretty much every match but not a lot of people seem to be bothered about that for one reason or another.

maximoose

That picture tells absolutely nothing. Got a gif?

Agueroooo

maximoose wrote: »

That picture tells absolutely nothing. Got a gif?

back to the Suarez alleged dive...

He (Suarez) is guilty of some comical dives but this time was not one, and its amazing me how much coverage its getting.

ronjo

Agueroooo wrote: »

back to the Suarez alleged dive...

He (Suarez) is guilty of some comical dives but this time was not one, and its amazing me how much coverage its getting.

I read this morning Guzan said Suarez said he didnt know if he was touched.

Now it has come to the media via Guzan but it seems like some sort of admission if true since he didnt try and put down his left leg at all.

I think Henry should be disgusted and ship him off to Arsenal immediately

noodler

It was a clear dive.

My fellow Liverpool fans doing themselves no favours denying it.

noodler

Corholio wrote: »

If some 'pundits' had their way, a goalkeeper running from his line would result in a yellow card and a penalty.

This X 1000

The sheer number of pundits who are blaming the keeper for coming out and disregarding the actual details of what comes next is very humerous.

BMJD

maximoose wrote: »

That picture tells absolutely nothing. Got a gif?

http://balls.ie/football/suarez-will-feeling-studs-challenge-morning/