Becoming a Trader in Dublin

OttoPilot

arrowloopboy wrote: »

Maybe it is,but set hours and answering to someone else ,whilst only receiving a small % of the profits wouldn't appeal to me.
Would you not be better gathering up 100k and and doing it for yourself ?

You just described any employee in a business there. The trade off for lower wages is less risk (none really if you choose not to invest your own money) whereas you could lose 100k of your own money if you do it yourself.

arrowloopboy

OttoPilot wrote: »

You just described any employee in a business there. The trade off for lower wages is less risk (none really if you choose not to invest your own money) whereas you could lose 100k of your own money if you do it yourself.

Not unless you own your own business,and I presume if you could manage to loose 100% of your bankroll,their wouldn't be too many firms headhunting you to lose their clients money:eek:.
So,do you have to show an aptitude for been a consistent successful trader,or just programmable ,like a guard ,to get in the door with said firms ?

desktyr

Hi,
Really interesting thread guys. I've no professional financial experience, but am interested in shifting careers and getting into the quant trading side of things, SIG or Virturo. I'm 24, with a first in maths from Trinity, and currently working in digital marketing. Is my age/other career potentially an issue to getting an entry-level trader position? What would be the best way to give myself an edge over undergrad applicants?
Cheers

mono627

arrowloopboy wrote: »

Maybe it is,but set hours and answering to someone else ,whilst only receiving a small % of the profits wouldn't appeal to me.
Would you not be better gathering up 100k and and doing it for yourself ?

I do trade my own account.

I also went through one of these training programmes to learn my trade. You forget that everyone starts somewhere and these training programmes give you the platform to learn to trade. Not everyone is in a position to put down the margin required to trade leveraged products.

arrowloopboy

mono627 wrote: »

I do trade my own account.

I also went through one of these training programmes to learn my trade. You forget that everyone starts somewhere and these training programmes give you the platform to learn to trade. Not everyone is in a position to put down the margin required to trade leveraged products.

True,the training programme you went through,did it deal with the dynamics of trading as a whole ,or was it specific to a niche area according to which ever firm you got in with.
Explain the process you went through,what you learned ,and what instruments you learned about,if you wouldn't mind.

Thanks,

Arrow

mono627

arrowloopboy wrote: »

True,the training programme you went through,did it deal with the dynamics of trading as a whole ,or was it specific to a niche area according to which ever firm you got in with.
Explain the process you went through,what you learned ,and what instruments you learned about,if you wouldn't mind.

Thanks,

Arrow

Without sounding like a d*ck I'd prefer not to say, I'm not sure they'd appreciate the training programme being discussed in detail.

What I will say is that it was pretty comprehensive and a lot of senior traders were quite happy to give their time to help along the way.

In the end I think everyone finds their own way in the markets to a certain degree and it certainly seemed that the ones who put the work/hours in had the best results.

arrowloopboy

mono627 wrote: »

Without sounding like a d*ck I'd prefer not to say, I'm not sure they'd appreciate the training programme being discussed in detail.

What I will say is that it was pretty comprehensive and a lot of senior traders were quite happy to give their time to help along the way.

In the end I think everyone finds their own way in the markets to a certain degree and it certainly seemed that the ones who put the work/hours in had the best results.

Oh,so your involved with a new group of Turtles,is Richard Dennis hidden away somewhere up there in the big smoke.
No offence,but that's pretty useless.Thanks anyway.

odd1

How bout yourself arrow? How did you learn

ixus

Sev wrote: »

What is your realised sharpe? (computed annually)
What is considered a good sharpe for a trader?
What is the realised sharpe of a typical trader?
Do you execute your trades manually?

1. That's personal
2. I don't know because that's personal to them.
3. See 1 & 2
4. I use both manual and automated strategies.

ixus

freeze4real wrote: »

Let's call a spade a spade doing that course will not guarantee you an interview with the likes of SIG and Virtu. TBH it won't. Most quantitative trading firms prefer individuals not to have prior knowledge of trading.

The likes of SIG and virtu don't need proof of profitable trading or a keen interest in finance.

Those who're working come from all background physics maths science etc. not all will have an interest in finance.


Ixus has listed most if the trading firms in Ireland and has briefly talked about how they differ. While they've some similarities, it can be said of those thy hire. SIG/Virtu are quantitatively based while GT/PE also look for those from quantitative background but not to the degree as SIG/Virtu does.

This would be correct. I believe I mentioned earlier, or elsewhere, that SIG only want Phd level or there about these days. It's no secret, just look at their website.

ixus

OttoPilot wrote: »

Hi, I'm going to be finishing my Finance degree in May with either a 2:1 or (hopefully) a 1:1. Only realised in the last 12 months or so it is not really maths focused enough to help me become a trader. I did some maths in first year which might help me but my leaving cert maths was pretty poor (D1, honours). I was thinking about repeating LC maths next year when I think I can get an A to demonstrate my numerical skills more. Would that benefit me or is LC maths too basic for employers to care? Seems like a waste to go back and do a more quantitatively focused degree now since it will take 3 years... or is there a one year diploma maths course that would make me stand out?

I have a job offer to be a fund accountant and they say they will support me if I decide to go for postgraduate study. So I was thinking about applying for UCD's Masters in Quant Finance since I'll be earning some money at last! I know this would be a tough route pt over 2 years but it would probably give me the best chance, right?

Also another route I was thinking of going next year was taking CFA exams? Are these beneficial to becoming a trader i.e. will they help me stand out? Thanks

CFA would have no definitive impact on becoming a trader. It would display a certain level of intelligence and work ethic though.

Fund accounting is a different world entirely. Prepare to have your mind numbed. And, they wouldn't support Quant, they would support a Masters in accounting, finance or doing accounting exams.

You need to do a lot more research I think.

ixus

freeze4real wrote: »

@Ixus if you want to update the list - shelbourne markets had a trading position for a graduate up a few months ago, citi has some trading positions up in dublin, Paddypower has/have a role for a risk trader and sports trader. There's also a food trader position ( commodities ) a while ago.

I wouldn't consider Shelbourne's to be a trading position. Role would likely involve monitoring people's trades. I say this from knowing someone who worked there.

Citi- Am I supposed to go and find the link to this? That won't be happening. What role is it anyway?

Paddy Powers is not a trading role. Again, I say this knowing someone who has worked there.

The Food Trader - same as citi? ??

odd1

ixus wrote: »

I wouldn't consider Shelbourne's to be a trading position. Role would likely involve monitoring people's trades. I say this from knowing someone who worked there.

Citi- Am I supposed to go and find the link to this? That won't be happening. What role is it anyway?

Paddy Powers is not a trading role. Again, I say this knowing someone who has worked there.

The Food Trader - same as citi? ??

What about Geneva, myriad, positive equities?

They seem to offer internships every couple of months

ixus

arrowloopboy wrote: »

This sound like an awfull lot of bodder/bullsh1t lads,do all ye wanting to get into trading ,already trade a successful reasonable sized LIVE account ?
It sounds like a horrible job lads :rolleyes:......
.......

Maybe it is,but set hours and answering to someone else ,whilst only receiving a small % of the profits wouldn't appeal to me.
Would you not be better gathering up 100k and and doing it for yourself ?

How exactly would an individual go about building a 100K cash pile they can afford to risk trading? Working for yourself, doing random hours? Sure if you could build that much to risk trading, why not just do that job? How long would it take to build that cash pile? Days, weeks, months,years?

I'll add to Odd1's question:

How did you learn to trade?
How long did it take?
How long did it take you to build up such a large cash pile that you could risk and not have it affect you financially?

Personally, I believe that companies I mentioned above provide a cheaper barrier to entry, with less personal risk and more educational guidance than you currently suggest. The option is always there to become independent once you've found your feet.

arrowloopboy

odd1 wrote: »

How bout yourself arrow? How did you learn

Van Tharpe,Livermore,Michael Platt,Simon Thompson,Investors Chronicle,The Motley Fool and 20 grand oh and most importantly Trading in the zone,if you havn't read it ,read it.
I'm a 1 trick pony,FTSE350.for now.

ixus

odd1 wrote: »

What about Geneva, myriad, positive equities?

They seem to offer internships every couple of months

I think all of those companies have rolling applications but will only start with a group once they have the appropriate candidates selected. They might take one group in the year, to a maximum of three. Depends on the size of each group and quality of applicants.

arrowloopboy

ixus wrote: »

How exactly would an individual go about building a 100K cash pile they can afford to risk trading? Working for yourself, doing random hours? Sure if you could build that much to risk trading, why not just do that job? How long would it take to build that cash pile? Days, weeks, months,years?

I'll add to Odd1's question:

How did you learn to trade?
How long did it take?
How long did it take you to build up such a large cash pile that you could risk and not have it affect you financially?

Personally, I believe that companies I mentioned above provide a cheaper barrier to entry, with less personal risk and more educational guidance than you currently suggest. The option is always there to become independent once you've found your feet.

This is a pass time for me lads,but ,the more I practice the luckier I'm becoming.


The companies you mentioned also own you,and your time,if I wasn't successful business owner,the above might intrest me.

I'm still learning,i'm 35 and have been studying markets for 5 yrs,as a pastime.

mono627

arrowloopboy wrote: »

This is a pass time for me lads,but ,the more I practice the luckier I'm becoming.


The companies you mentioned also own you,and your time,if I wasn't successful business owner,the above might intrest me.

I'm still learning,i'm 35 and have been studying markets for 5 yrs,as a pastime.

You haven't a clue.

arrowloopboy

mono627 wrote: »

You haven't a clue.

Have I not ? ,do you not have to turn up for work at a certain time,is your performance not been consistently monitored ,can you stay at home if you don't feel like turning in today,can you go on a holiday at the drop of a hat ?
Explain yourself

Idu

No, yes, yes, yes.

Working for a prop firm is one of the most independent jobs there is

mono627

arrowloopboy wrote: »

Have I not ? ,do you not have to turn up for work at a certain time,is your performance not been consistently monitored ,can you stay at home if you don't feel like turning in today,can you go on a holiday at the drop of a hat ?
Explain yourself

What Idu said.

odd1

Mono how long. We're you trading with prop firm, before you traded your own account?
Did it take you long to find your own edge

Tia

mono627

odd1 wrote: »

Mono how long. We're you trading with prop firm, before you traded your own account?
Did it take you long to find your own edge

Tia

Little over two years I think.

No we hit the ground running pretty quickly. We were trading live within ten weeks. Everyone develops at their own pace and each class is different.

arrowloopboy

Idu wrote: »

No, yes, yes, yes.

Working for a prop firm is one of the most independent jobs there is

That sounds a lot more appealing than I was led to believe,i thought you started off on a par with pond scum:D:D:D.
But I won't have to worry about it ,education ended a leaving cert level:rolleyes:.

daheff

Idu wrote: »

No, yes, yes, yes.

Working for a prop firm is one of the most independent jobs there is

I would 100% disagree with this. Just because its a prop firm doesnt mean its free rein to do what you want.

Prop firms have specific trading strategies they trade. Traders would work within the strategy limits. They may have some decision making ability or they may have specifics they have to stick to.


Can you elaborate on why you think it is a most independent job?

Idu

What are you basing your opinions on? I've never heard of a prop firm that operates like that(though I'm sure there are some). Most prop firms leave their senior traders to come and go as they please and to trade in whatever manner they see fit

arrowloopboy

Idu wrote: »

What are you basing your opinions on? I've never heard of a prop firm that operates like that(though I'm sure there are some). Most prop firms leave their senior traders to come and go as they please and to trade in whatever manner they see fit

I wasn't asking about senior traders,what % of traders in said firms are senior,and are the liberties that were outlined afforded to everyone that trade for said firms ?
How long or successful do you have to be with said firms before you become a senior trader ?

Idu

Most firms would have a good core of senior traders, some junior traders and possibly some trainees. The liberties are afforded to everyone but most don't take the piss with it because if you're not in the office then you're not making money so you're only hurting yourself(Some firms pay a salary so they might not be as loose but I've never worked in a place like that so can't comment). Generally people who come in to prop firms are extremely motivated and love trading so the issue of people skipping out isn't a common occurrence. But no matter what level you are it it's certainly a lot easier to take a day off or go on holidays than it is working in jobs where you have to give notice or have a set amount of leave each year.

Senior traders would generally be any trader with a positive account. It's more of a title of experience than any actual responsibility within the firm

arrowloopboy

Idu wrote: »

Most firms would have a good core of senior traders, some junior traders and possibly some trainees. The liberties are afforded to everyone but most don't take the piss with it because if you're not in the office then you're not making money so you're only hurting yourself(Some firms pay a salary so they might not be as loose but I've never worked in a place like that so can't comment). Generally people who come in to prop firms are extremely motivated and love trading so the issue of people skipping out isn't a common occurrence. But no matter what level you are it it's certainly a lot easier to take a day off or go on holidays than it is working in jobs where you have to give notice or have a set amount of leave each year.

Senior traders would generally be any trader with a positive account. It's more of a title of experience than any actual responsibility within the firm

That simple ?,its not that hard to maintain a positive account,with a couple of basic systems and disciplined money management.

odd1

any of ye care to share your interview stories

Idu

arrowloopboy wrote: »

That simple ?,its not that hard to maintain a positive account,with a couple of basic systems and disciplined money management.

The trading styles are totally different so it's more complicated than that. I don't trade a set amount of capital per trade.

Generally trainees coming in will have built up a down account from fees and trading losses so they have to earn that back before they are considered to be past the trainee stage

Idu

odd1 wrote: »

any of ye care to share your interview stories

Like what?

daheff

Idu wrote: »

What are you basing your opinions on? I've never heard of a prop firm that operates like that(though I'm sure there are some). Most prop firms leave their senior traders to come and go as they please and to trade in whatever manner they see fit

Was this question asked to me? If so, I'm basing my experience on quite a number years working for one of the above mentioned companies


I've never seen a trader given free rein to do whatever they wanted. They would have basic trading strategies to work around (which makes sense that you dont have multiple traders jumping on each others toes)

arrowloopboy

daheff wrote: »

Was this question asked to me? If so, I'm basing my experience on quite a number years working for one of the above mentioned companies


I've never seen a trader given free rein to do whatever they wanted. They would have basic trading strategies to work around (which makes sense that you dont have multiple traders jumping on each others toes)

I'd imagine there are traders trading with free rein, but not in little firms in Dublin,I know Michael Platt of Bluecrest gives his traders free rein,but when the lose 2 % of their allocation their monitored ,and if they lose a further2 % their gone.But I doubt we could compare any firm operating out of Dublin to his set up.
I

Idu

daheff wrote: »

Was this question asked to me? If so, I'm basing my experience on quite a number years working for one of the above mentioned companies


I've never seen a trader given free rein to do whatever they wanted. They would have basic trading strategies to work around (which makes sense that you dont have multiple traders jumping on each others toes)

I've worked in Positive and Myriad and it's nothing like what you describe. I also know for a fact that Marex, Tower and STA in London operate in the way I've described. In fact Positive promote sharing ideas and everybody doing the same trades

ixus

arrowloopboy wrote: »

I'd imagine there are traders trading with free rein, but not in little firms in Dublin,I know Michael Platt of Bluecrest gives his traders free rein,but when the lose 2 % of their allocation their monitored ,and if they lose a further2 % their gone.But I doubt we could compare any firm operating out of Dublin to his set up.
I

Why do you keep making statements/guesses like this? The reality is you don't know. For each statement you make, there are three experienced traders from different firms (Idu, Mono and I) to discredit what you say.

If you want to ask a question, please do. If you want to share your experience of developing as a trader, please do. Making these statements with no actual knowledge, either first hand or through someone you know in them, does you no favors when it comes to you talking about trading.

Do you know Michael Platt personally or, are you just going by your reading of Hedge Fund Market Wizards?

ixus

daheff wrote: »

Prop firms have specific trading strategies they trade. Traders would work within the strategy limits. They may have some decision making ability or they may have specifics they have to stick to.


Can you elaborate on why you think it is a most independent job?
..........
Was this question asked to me? If so, I'm basing my experience on quite a number years working for one of the above mentioned companies


I've never seen a trader given free rein to do whatever they wanted. They would have basic trading strategies to work around (which makes sense that you dont have multiple traders jumping on each others toes)

Were you a trader? Your post suggests you were not.

The only limits I have are the risk limits I agree with the Risk team, for obvious reasons. Otherwise, your comments are inaccurate.

arrowloopboy

Q1. Are you a senior trader.
Q2 Whats your allocated bankroll.
Q3 What do you trade
Q4 Is your trading completely dicscresioinary
Q5 Whats your average return over the past 5 yrs.
Q6 whats your average r/r %

That's for the 3 pros here,Idu Ixus and Mono.

We don't know ye,ye don't use your own names,ye are anonamis

Avoiding the above with some bullsh1t answer like we can't disclose that info ,like ye are one of the original Turtle group, is a plain and simple cop out.

In an ordiarly fashion lads ....

Idu

arrowloopboy wrote: »

Q1. Are you a senior trader.
Q2 Whats your allocated bankroll.
Q3 What do you trade
Q4 Is your trading completely dicscresioinary
Q5 Whats your average return over the past 5 yrs.
Q6 whats your average r/r %

That's for the 3 pros here,Idu Ixus and Mono.

We don't know ye,ye don't use your own names,ye are anonamis

Avoiding the above with some bullsh1t answer like we can't disclose that info ,like ye are one of the original Turtle group, is a plain and simple cop out.

In an ordiarly fashion lads ....

Q1. Are you a senior trader. Yes
Q2 Whats your allocated bankroll. Margin of 50k
Q3 What do you trade Pretty much every futures market possible(equities, energy, fx, softs, fixed income). Don't trade stocks
Q4 Is your trading completely dicscresioinary Yes
Q5 Whats your average return over the past 5 yrs. Made at least 6 figures net every year
Q6 whats your average r/r % I don't track it

Style of trading is very different to what most people's idea of trading is so r/r% and average return aren't generally things I take into account. For my margin I have limits in different products which allow me to trade different size in different strategies. If I lose the margin I need to put up more to continue to trade. I've never had this happen.

ixus

arrowloopboy wrote: »

Q1. Are you a senior trader.
Q2 Whats your allocated bankroll.
Q3 What do you trade
Q4 Is your trading completely dicscresioinary
Q5 Whats your average return over the past 5 yrs.
Q6 whats your average r/r %

That's for the 3 pros here,Idu Ixus and Mono.

We don't know ye,ye don't use your own names,ye are anonamis

Avoiding the above with some bullsh1t answer like we can't disclose that info ,like ye are one of the original Turtle group, is a plain and simple cop out.

In an ordiarly fashion lads ....

1. Yes.
2. None of your business
3. Everything
4. Yes
5.See 2
6. See 2

The point you're missing is this conversation is not a private one between 3/4 people. There are plenty of my mates on Boards.ie who know who I am. I don't discuss what I earn with anybody. Why would I with you?

That's the end of that discussion as far as I'm concerned. It is not what the thread is about.

arrowloopboy

ixus wrote: »

1. Yes.
2. None of your business
3. Everything
4. Yes
5.See 2
6. See 2

The point you're missing is this conversation is not a private one between 3/4 people. There are plenty of my mates on Boards.ie who know who I am. I don't discuss what I earn with anybody. Why would I with you?

That's the end of that discussion as far as I'm concerned. It is not what the thread is about.

I don't care what you earn,i didn't ask you that ,re read my post.
I presume the bankroll you trade isn't yours,so its irrelevant .
you asked me to ask questions,i did,you coped out ,end of discussion,happy trading.

odd1

any of ye care to share interview stories

idu

like what?


like, what questions were you asked?
was it friendly/hostile?
did you have to do an exam?
any crazy moments?

or anything else ye would care to add;)

Idu

I only interviewed with Positive and it was 7 years ago so no doubt it's changed since then but the interview was friendly and quite relaxed. They didn't ask me anything too complicated or any tough maths questions it was more of a getting to know you type interview. In those days they hired people with certain mental attributes over people with amazing educational achievements. They were looking for high achievers in any field and people who showed a competitive streak. That was changing though but I don't know the specifics of their interview anymore. I think Positive do a simple exam before their interview and we do in Myriad too but it's extremely straight forward.

I've been told by other guys I've worked with that Geneva did(or do) a math based interview over the phone and I think SIG is the same. I'd imagine SIG's interview to be much more in line with what you would imagine an Investment Banks to be.

Can't remember any crazy moments from my own interview but from ones I've done the people who stand out are people who had no idea about trading or prop trading specifically. I would imagine the number 1 thing these companies still want is people who are passionate about trading.

If I was offering someone tips going into an interview with Positive, Myriad or Geneva I would say it's important to show a real passion for trading and back it up. Just saying it won't cut it. Also this is quite obvious but relax. More so than most jobs previous academic skills aren't as transferable so the interview is more about you as a person than what you know. I know from interviews I've done that I generally lean towards people who I'd like to sit beside rather than someone with degrees to burn.

Good luck in your search!

syntheticjunk

Idu,

looks like most of trainees won't succeed. What is a main obstacle to become full time trader?

Idu

What prop houses will teach you is how not to lose money and manage your risk so the thing that holds most trainees back is just their own personality or attitude to risk. Some people, regardless of how hard they work or how smart they are, just can't pull the trigger on trades or handle the downside that inevitably comes with trading for a living. There's no hard and fast rule as to what % of a class will be successful

arrowloopboy

Idu wrote: »

What prop houses will teach you is how not to lose money and manage your risk so the thing that holds most trainees back is just their own personality or attitude to risk. Some people, regardless of how hard they work or how smart they are, just can't pull the trigger on trades or handle the downside that inevitably comes with trading for a living. There's no hard and fast rule as to what % of a class will be successful

I'm of the opinion that the key to succeeding as a trader is mostly down to psychology ,is this something a lot of wannabe traders overlook.
Lets face it,if your of average intelligence ,its possible with a bit of research ,to put a system together with a positive expectancy,sticking to it and trading it like you designed it,is where most might fall down.

Whats your take on this ?

Idu

I'd agree with that. Some people just can't handle the swings of trading or even the simplest things like cutting losing trades. You can see evidence of that in so many of the threads on here. The best traders accept bad trades as part and parcel of the job. The reason most people aren't as profitable as they could be is because they have their money sitting in bad investments waiting for it to turn back into profit rather than accepting it, moving on and finding a better opportunity. Nobody can be right 100% of the time so the sooner people realise that the more successful they'll be

freeze4real

What's salary bracket for junior traders ?

Would junior traders have to allocate a certain percentage of their income to towards certain costs ?

What kind is involved in the 2nd stage ? Is it a general knowledge test about the financial markets or more arithmetic ?

Idu

freeze4real wrote: »

What's salary bracket for junior traders ? Positive and Myriad don't pay a salary. You get a % of what you earn. Since most junior traders don't make anything at the start they get a small stipend of around €750 a month which is just to help out. It's certainly not enough to live well on but plenty of people have managed it before

Would junior traders have to allocate a certain percentage of their income to towards certain costs ? There are costs every month for market access, front end software etc. These are taken pre split and then the remainder(if any) is available to be taken as a salary

What kind is involved in the 2nd stage ? Is it a general knowledge test about the financial markets or more arithmetic ? Second interview is quite similar to the first one but probably a little more market focused. In Myriad the maths test is before the 2nd interview. Generally in your second interview you will meet different people from the 1st one so that as many people as possible get to meet you. As I said before they're hiring the person not a list of achievements

Answered your questions in bold above. I would say to anyone who was applying for positions in the past or in the future that even if you don't get an interview 1st time around or you don't make the cut in the interviews don't let that discourage you from applying elsewhere or even reapplying the next time around. The hiring process is quite fickle and the judgements are best guesses the most of the time. IMO there is no one thing that can tell you who will be a success so don't be discouraged by rejection and take it as a sign that you're not qualified.

freeze4real

Many thanks for the detailed reply Idu.

Ixus can you answer the above for Geneva trading.