Mahon Point Shopping Centre

namloc1980

Ludo wrote: »

As much as your stupid NIMBY post.

But yours was a NIMBY argument. Don't want this because......

j8wk2feszrnpao

namloc1980 wrote: »

It was built as a public transport corridor and this would be returning it to it's intended use. However the NIMBYs would be out in force no doubt. It will happen at some point. The NIMBYs better get ready.

And it was a grassy/woody area before that. Things change you know. Nothing to do with NIMBYism (which is a cop out statement when you can't debate something).

namloc1980

munstermagic11 wrote: »

And it was a grassy/woody area before that. Things change you know. Nothing to do with NIMBYism (which is a cop out statement when you can't debate something).

No it's not. I already outlined that the feasibility study in 2010 recommended this route as a strong trip generator and traffic alleviator. Nobody has refuted that yet, so the "but but it's a nice walk" are the people copping out of debating it.

j8wk2feszrnpao

namloc1980 wrote: »

No it's not. I already outlined that the feasibility study in 2010 recommended this route as a strong trip generator and traffic alleviator. Nobody has refuted that yet, so the "but but it's a nice walk" are the people copping out.

I haven't been there in quite some time (about 5years), so I can't comment on it's current usage. But it was used significantly when I would cycle there; not just as easy as saying rip it up and plank in a light rail system when we want people to be out walking/running/cycling. That's not NIMBYism.

namloc1980

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I haven't been there in quite some time (about 5years), so I can't comment on it's current usage. But it was used significantly when I would cycle there; not just as easy as saying rip it up and plank in a light rail system when we want people to be out walking/running/cycling. That's not NIMBYism.

There is still a large walking area down there. A quick map measure on Google shows that the walkway from Mahon to the Marina is c.2.5km. The loop around from the castle along the water edge as far as Jacob's island and then down to Rochestown is about 4km with another 3 or 4km to Passage. Nobody is saying to rip the whole lot up, just use the short piece from Mahon to the Marina as a virtual piece of public transit infrastructure. The rest remains intact for use as you outlined above. What's the argument against that?

j8wk2feszrnpao

namloc1980 wrote: »

There is still a large walking area down there. A quick map measure on Google shows that the walkway from Mahon to the Marina is c.2.5km. The loop around from the castle along the water edge as far as Jacob's island and then down to Rochestown is about 4km with another 3 or 4km to Passage. Nobody is saying to rip the whole lot up, just use the short piece from Mahon to the Marina as a virtual piece of public transit infrastructure. The rest remains intact for use as you outlined above. What's the argument against that?

I thought we were only speaking about the stretch from the City to Mahon. I know the other parts (I came in from the Rochestown side); but the City/Mahon part always seemed the busiest part to me (just on observation, nothing to state that's true) so that would be the argument.
Personally, it wouldn't affect me either way, so nothing to do with NIMBYism or car mentality.

namloc1980

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I thought we were only speaking about the stretch from the City to Mahon. I know the other parts (I came in from the Rochestown side); but the City/Mahon part always seemed the busiest part to me (just on observation, nothing to state that's true) so that would be the argument.
Personally, it wouldn't affect me either way, so nothing to do with NIMBYism or car mentally.

This thread is over 200 posts and the majority of them relate to complaints about traffic down in Mahon. But then clearly from the last few posts there's also no desire to improve public transit there either. No point in saying improve the bus service because normal buses have to run on the same roads as cars so that's pointless - put in bus lanes and that brings more complaints.

If people don't want proper public transport and want to keep everything in the status quo then you can't really complain about traffic imho. I still don't see a compelling reason not to put in a public transport link using the old rail line.

Ludo

namloc1980 wrote: »

But yours was a NIMBY argument. Don't want this because......

I think you misunderstand NIMBYism. All arguments against something are not automatically NIMBYism.

hot buttered scones

Regarding the walkway from the Marina to Mahon:

I'm frequent user of this, so am definitely biased towards its retention. Public recreation spaces are an important part of a city infrastructure, and we are very lacking in areas like this in Cork imo. I've seen this area described as a linear park (possibly on the Councils website) which I think is a very apt description. I think more could be done to encourage commuting by bike along this route. The addition of a couple of Cork Bike docks at Mahon Point and maybe one closer to all the offices would help with this. I suppose the debate is whether or not it is more important to the city to retain this park or should it be converted to public transport use.
Is there any alternatives to be looked at? I seem to remember reading that part of the plans for the Marina Park are to pedestrianise the Marina itself (I could be totally wrong here). Why not send the public transport service up there instead. Is it feasible to run a tram/trolley bus up Centre Park Road, the Marina through Blackrock Village and down Ringmahon Road? Maybe starting at the new entrance to Kent Station? It would Pairc Ui Caoimh as well. Or will this result in more congestion as it takes up road space used by cars?
Does any of this solve the issue of traffic coming from the East through the tunnel or from the West along the South Ring? It might help alleviate traffic coming in and out of the City Centre, and maybe from the East (from areas served by rail), but beyond that I'm not too sure. Before ripping up a valued public amenity, I think we need to be sure where the traffic volumes are coming from and if putting a public transport solution along the walkway would alleviate it. If you were talking about reinstating the entire line as far as Crosshaven, that would be something that I would find hard to argue against, but I believe there has been sections of that alignment built on.
And what about the current cyclists/pedestrians who do use this route for commuting? What are those volumes like, and is there any guarantee that they will use public transport along this route (if provided) or will they instead revert to the car?

Anyway, I think it's a interesting debate to be had, but I can't see anyway that there will be funding made available for any grand public transport solution along the lines of the Luas in Cork until Dublin gets sorted out -which of course will be never.

grogi

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Is there any alternatives to be looked at? I seem to remember reading that part of the plans for the Marina Park are to pedestrianise the Marina itself (I could be totally wrong here). Why not send the public transport service up there instead. Is it feasible to run a tram/trolley bus up Centre Park Road, the Marina through Blackrock Village and down Ringmahon Road?.

There is virtually nothing around Ringmahon Road - some GAA Clubs and low density residential areas - while a vast majority of office building in Mahon are around Mahon Cres and old railway - from CSO, planned City Gate Plaza, Voxpro, NSC, City Gate and Mater Private, City Gate Park. Not to mention the Mahon Retail Park... Finish it up with a station in Rochestown and do P&R at Hartys Quay... It would be awesome if a connection from Kent to Páirc Uí Chaoimh was done too - but I can't see this happening.

It's fantastic that the walk is being used - it's better than letting the land unused. However the public transport link there would benefit the Cork residents much more...

hot buttered scones

grogi wrote: »

There is virtually nothing around Ringmahon Road - some GAA Clubs and low density residential areas - while a vast majority of office building in Mahon are around Mahon Cres and old railway - from CSO, planned City Gate Plaza, Voxpro, NSC, City Gate and Mater Private, City Gate Park. Not to mention the Mahon Retail Park... Finish it up with a station in Rochestown and do P&R at Hartys Quay... It would be awesome if a connection from Kent to Páirc Uí Chaoimh was done too - but I can't see this happening.

It's fantastic that the walk is being used - it's better than letting the land unused. However the public transport link there would benefit the Cork residents much more...

I mentioned Ringmahon road purely from a route point of view - a nice wide road with, as you said, very little on it. I choose that instead of one the narrower roads, but I get your point - but there's nothing on the walkway either.
I would say something like send it down Ringmahon Road, up St Michael's Road at the back of (or even through) Mahon Point, then round past Voxpro, the CSO and back up the Skehard Road to go back onto Ringmahon Road and back into town.

Would public transport along this route benefit Cork residents more than a public walkway used for exercise to maintain good health? There's more to these public parks and spaces the just being nice places to walk. There's a measurable benefit to overall public health I'm guessing, with a reduction in strain on the health services (pure conjecture on my part of course, but it just makes sense to me).

I said in my earlier post about getting behind a route from Crosshaven, but you make a very good point about a P+R from Harty's Quay. I just think without the link to the train station (and probably the bus station too) it becomes less attractive. Actually, they missed a trick not moving the bus station to the train station at the time of the upgrade. You could least encourage people to get a bus or train into town and run a bus out to Mahon for the central station.

Actually, come to think of it why aren't they running park and ride buses from the Black Ash out to Mahon? Surely if they could encourage people to use this it would help relieve some of the pressure. It's only a stop gap measure, I know, but surely its better than nothing?

j8wk2feszrnpao

namloc1980 wrote: »

But then clearly from the last few posts there's also no desire to improve public transit there either.

The last few posts haven’t mentioned anything negative in terms of public transit; only protecting a walking/cycling path that appears to still be well in use. That doesn’t equate to what you are reading into.
I would say the area was over developed in the first place, resulting in the traffic problems that are now there.
I haven’t seen the study you speak of, but based on previous thread about light rail, some of the contributors posted the likely costs which were huge. I could see such a project (although possibly not as expensive) hitting high figures as well.

TheChizler

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Is there any alternatives to be looked at? I seem to remember reading that part of the plans for the Marina Park are to pedestrianise the Marina itself (I could be totally wrong here). Why not send the public transport service up there instead. Is it feasible to run a tram/trolley bus up Centre Park Road, the Marina through Blackrock Village and down Ringmahon Road? Maybe starting at the new entrance to Kent Station? It would Pairc Ui Caoimh as well. Or will this result in more congestion as it takes up road space used by cars?

It's nearly a straight run down the marina and through Eden onto the Mahon Link Road, if only Blackrock House/the convent was slightly off to one side. Interesting proposal though.

whisky_galore

namloc1980 wrote: »

If people don't want proper public transport and want to keep everything in the status quo then you can't really complain about traffic imho. I still don't see a compelling reason not to put in a public transport link using the old rail line.

I don't see why it can't be a shared light railway/walkway, but really the imagination and get-up-and-go in this country is truly lacking compared to anywhere else.

In addition, people here will whinge and moan endlessly about being stuck in their car or bus but they'll never lobby or make an election issue about it. They'll go nuts about a new development they're objecting to or abortion or water charges but will be 'meh' as regards anything else.

Aglomerado

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Actually, come to think of it why aren't they running park and ride buses from the Black Ash out to Mahon? Surely if they could encourage people to use this it would help relieve some of the pressure. It's only a stop gap measure, I know, but surely its better than nothing?

Park and ride would be (even more) brilliant if it ran to Mahon, but would only really facilitate people coming from the west/ Kinsale. Those of us using the M8/N25 would still be approaching as normal. Another P&R in Glanmire/ Carrigtwohill would be excellent.

namloc1980

whisky_galore wrote: »

I don't see why it can't be a shared light railway/walkway, but really the imagination and get-up-and-go in this country is truly lacking compared to anywhere else.

In addition, people here will whinge and moan endlessly about being stuck in their car or bus but they'll never lobby or make an election issue about it. They'll go nuts about a new development they're objecting to or abortion or water charges but will be 'meh' as regards anything else.

Absolutely. Transport just isn't an issue people will get up in arms over unless it's to do with roads. Everyone moans about the bus service but there were 12 million journeys on the Cork city & suburban bus network in 2016 so plenty of people use it. Imagine how many more would use it if it was improved. The N40 South Ring is used by 100,000 cars a day. For a city the size of Cork that is just ludicrous. The Dunkettle works will help but will also send the bottleneck elsewhere. It's not a sustainable situation.

Aarhus in Denmark which is similar in size to Cork and like Cork is the second biggest city in the country, just opened its new tram line through the city centre. It's remarkable how similar it is to Cork. The new line connects the main train station, University hospital and the university as well as the city centre and nearby suburbs. Why can't we do that here? You'll here plenty of excuses but really it's a lack of vision and will.

Ludo

namloc1980 wrote: »

Absolutely. Transport just isn't an issue people will get up in arms over unless it's to do with roads. Everyone moans about the bus service but there were 12 million journeys on the Cork city & suburban bus network in 2016 so plenty of people use it. Imagine how many more would use it if it was improved. The N40 South Ring is used by 100,000 cars a day. For a city the size of Cork that is just ludicrous. The Dunkettle works will help but will also send the bottleneck elsewhere. It's not a sustainable situation.

Aarhus in Denmark which is similar in size to Cork and like Cork is the second biggest city in the country, just opened its new tram line through the city centre. It's remarkable how similar it is to Cork. The new line connects the main train station, University hospital and the university as well as the city centre and nearby suburbs. Why can't we do that here? You'll here plenty of excuses but really it's a lack of vision and will.

I bet they didn't destroy one of the best/only pedestrian/cycle route in the city to do it though. That track encourages a lot of people to cycle (which reduces traffic) as it is segregated from traffic and encourages a lot of people to get exercise by walking in a nice environment. Destroying it to provide a tram to a shopping centre/business park seems like the "lack of vision" solution to me.

whisky_galore

Ludo wrote: »

I bet they didn't destroy one of the best/only pedestrian/cycle route in the city to do it though. That track encourages a lot of people to cycle (which reduces traffic) as it is segregated from traffic and encourages a lot of people to get exercise by walking in a nice environment. Destroying it to provide a tram to a shopping centre/business park seems like the "lack of vision" solution to me.

It wasn't built back in the 1800's for people to walk dogs on and cycle. It's only reverting back to the purpose it was built for originally. Besides it was built to broad gauge as far as Passage and converted to narrow gauge so there should be space for both.

I don't see it happening in a million years for reasons outlined previously and the hyperbolic Nimbyism that seems to be prevalent everywhere. We can't develop anything without lack of drive, objections or landowners' eyes lighting up with € signs.

So...with that thinking...we shall continue to choke in conventional road traffic, which by the way, adds to the troubles of cyclists who use the roads out of necessity.

namloc1980

Ludo wrote: »

I bet they didn't destroy one of the best/only pedestrian/cycle route in the city to do it though. That track encourages a lot of people to cycle (which reduces traffic) as it is segregated from traffic and encourages a lot of people to get exercise by walking in a nice environment. Destroying it to provide a tram to a shopping centre/business park seems like the "lack of vision" solution to me.

Not really. And as I noted already there is over 4km of walking/cycling routes down there even if the 2.5km from Mahon to the Marina is used for this which has been ignored. Also engineers could come up with a solution, who knows. Dismissing things out of hand is exactly the problem we have here in Ireland. No interest in looking at solutions.

grogi

Ludo wrote: »

I bet they didn't destroy one of the best/only pedestrian/cycle route in the city to do it though. That track encourages a lot of people to cycle (which reduces traffic) as it is segregated from traffic and encourages a lot of people to get exercise by walking in a nice environment. Destroying it to provide a tram to a shopping centre/business park seems like the "lack of vision" solution to me.

We had lack of vision when the shopping centre was put where it is. Now it is just damage control... But is there long term vision for Cork really?!

whisky_galore

grogi wrote: »

We had lack of vision when the shopping centre was put where it is. Now it is just damage control... But is there long term vision for Cork really?!

Like most things, it seemed like a good idea at the time...

Blitzkrieger

namloc1980 wrote: »

Not really. And as I noted already there is over 4km of walking/cycling routes down there even if the 2.5km from Mahon to the Marina is used for this which has been ignored. Also engineers could come up with a solution, who knows. Dismissing things out of hand is exactly the problem we have here in Ireland. No interest in looking at solutions.

I'm still sceptical. Without seeing the (now old af) feasibility study I mainly have questions. There is thousands working in Mahon in the Mahon Point area, and I see a large number using the bus services to get to the city centre. My first question would be : how many of these people actually live in the city centre? Did the study suggest thousands would use it because the city centre is basically a public transport hub? If you did get people out of their cars would this put additional people trying to transit an already crowded city centre? Would it make more sense to have orbital transport routes?

Regardless I would never advocate removing the amenity walkway. Leaving just 4km would make the system way busier and less accessible. I mainly use it for the occasional run, but I think most people would agree it's nice to be able to make a loop, rather than go X distance one way then turn around. In a city that IMO doesn't have enough green spaces, it would have a huge impact on public health to lose it.

Underground railway? Elevated railway? Obviously expensive but there must be engineering solutions out there.

grogi

Blitzkrieger wrote: »

Underground railway? Elevated railway? Obviously expensive but there must be engineering solutions out there.

I would say that underground is not really feasible because of the nature of soil around Cork. Overground just looks horrible - Cork, Wuppertal of Ireland

Ludo

namloc1980 wrote: »

Not really. And as I noted already there is over 4km of walking/cycling routes down there even if the 2.5km from Mahon to the Marina is used for this which has been ignored. Also engineers could come up with a solution, who knows. Dismissing things out of hand is exactly the problem we have here in Ireland. No interest in looking at solutions.

Did I not say earlier it would be fine if they co-existed..or did you choose to ignore that?

And the reverting to original has no bearing. It should be based on what is best going forward. Original use could also imply removing the South Link in favour of a train to the airport in future. Madness.

whisky_galore

Well, you can't make an omelette with breaking a few eggs, the way things are going is clearly not sustainable.

namloc1980

Blitzkrieger wrote: »

I'm still sceptical. Without seeing the (now old af) feasibility study I mainly have questions. There is thousands working in Mahon in the Mahon Point area, and I see a large number using the bus services to get to the city centre. My first question would be : how many of these people actually live in the city centre? Did the study suggest thousands would use it because the city centre is basically a public transport hub? If you did get people out of their cars would this put additional people trying to transit an already crowded city centre? Would it make more sense to have orbital transport routes?

Regardless I would never advocate removing the amenity walkway. Leaving just 4km would make the system way busier and less accessible. I mainly use it for the occasional run, but I think most people would agree it's nice to be able to make a loop, rather than go X distance one way then turn around. In a city that IMO doesn't have enough green spaces, it would have a huge impact on public health to lose it.

Underground railway? Elevated railway? Obviously expensive but there must be engineering solutions out there.

Underground is a no go in Cork anyway and elevated railways are horrendous. The other option is to run it on existing surface roads but that is just a waste of time and money as it has to compete with existing road traffic so might as well not bother. Also I don't get the over crowded city centre comment. I would never describe Cork city centre as crowded.

namloc1980

Ludo wrote: »

Did I not say earlier it would be fine if they co-existed..or did you choose to ignore that?

And the reverting to original has no bearing. It should be based on what is best going forward. Original use could also imply removing the South Link in favour of a train to the airport in future. Madness.

100,000 cars per day on the N40 is not sustainable hence we see massive tailbacks morning and evening on the N40. Existing buses that have to sit in traffic with cars is not sustainable. In the 2016 census just over 2,000 people cycled to work/university/school in Cork city and suburbs - a really low number. Only 8% of commuters use public transport while nearly 70% commute by car. None of this is sustainable.

Frostybrew

The only reason the walkway from the Marina to Mahon exists as it was designated as a potential public transport corridor in the LUTS plan in 1978. It's been protected from encroaching development ever since. The walkway was developed as a by product of this designation, as it can easily be converted to heavy or light rail.

The LUTS plan also examined the possibility of running suburban rail from the city centre to Carrigaline with a spur to then newly created industrial area in Ringaskiddy, but decided it wasn't feasible at the time.

The question of whether it's a walkway or light rail line is a non issue as there is ample room for both. That the walkway would be closed while it is redeveloped is the only possible grievance it's existing users could have.

TheChizler

Frostybrew wrote: »

The question of whether it's a walkway or light rail line is a non issue as there is ample room for both. That the walkway would be closed while it is redeveloped is the only possible grievance it's existing users could have.

You'd have to put a barrier between the rails and path or else the vehicle would be stopping every two seconds waiting for people to get out of the way, or bikes would be getting stuck in the rail. This would only leave a small sliver of path at the side. Is that not a legitimate grievance?

whisky_galore

TheChizler wrote: »

You'd have to put a barrier between the rails and path or else the vehicle would be stopping every two seconds waiting for people to get out of the way, or bikes would be getting stuck in the rail. This would only leave a small sliver of path at the side. Is that not a legitimate grievance?

If your barrier is several feet wide, then yes.....