Mahon Point Shopping Centre

Frostybrew

TheChizler wrote: »

You'd have to put a barrier between the rails and path or else the vehicle would be stopping every two seconds waiting for people to get out of the way, or bikes would be getting stuck in the rail. This would only leave a small sliver of path at the side. Is that not a legitimate grievance?

There's more than enough space for trams, barriers, cycle lanes, and walk ways. It's a non issue.

TheChizler

Frostybrew wrote: »

There's more than enough space for trams, barriers, cycle lanes, and walk ways. It's a non issue.

What kind of space is required? There's some quite narrow pinch points under bridges.

Frostybrew

TheChizler wrote: »

What kind of space is required? There's some quite narrow pinch points under bridges.

For a project of this scale you would replace the bridges. Similar to what was done when the south link was constructed in the early eighties.

TheChizler

Whatever about people with genuine concerns about safety and loosing a valued public amenity, demolishing those bridges will really bring out the NIMBYs...

Frostybrew

TheChizler wrote: »

Whatever about people with genuine concerns about safety and loosing a valued public amenity, demolishing those bridges will really bring out the NIMBYs...

All three of them. Why do you say this?

namloc1980

Frostybrew wrote: »

There's more than enough space for trams, barriers, cycle lanes, and walk ways. It's a non issue.

You need about 7-8 metres of space for a dual tracked tram line. Not sure how much room that would leave. There is quite a bit of undergrowth on each side of the track so the space might be there. The bridges would definitely have to go and be replaced either way

TheChizler

Frostybrew wrote: »

All three of them. Why do you say this?

Other posters seemed concerned with them earlier. Better off not drawing them on if they're such a concern.

Frostybrew

namloc1980 wrote: »

You need about 7-8 metres of space for a dual tracked tram line. Not sure how much room that would leave. There is quite a bit of undergrowth on each side of the track so the space might be there. The bridges would definitely have to go and be replaced either way

The area reserved is 15 to 20 metres wide.

namloc1980

Frostybrew wrote: »

The area reserved is 15 to 20 metres wide.

Well then there should be no problem. Everyone wins. Unfortunately the only issue really is that central government would never put the investment into Cork to get such a scheme off the ground.

Frostybrew

namloc1980 wrote: »

Well then there should be no problem. Everyone wins. Unfortunately the only issue really is that central government would never put the investment into Cork to get such a scheme off the ground.

Yes, that is one of the major issues.

Ludo

namloc1980 wrote: »

Well then there should be no problem. Everyone wins. Unfortunately the only issue really is that central government would never put the investment into Cork to get such a scheme off the ground.

That we can all agree on :-)

By time that ever happens, driverless cars will be reality and that in itself will alleviate the issue. So why not encourage Ireland to become the first driverless country (ideal location being an island). Try a 21st century solution rather than a 19th century one.

Ludo

And as for these NIMBY comments. They really are ridiculous in this discussion. It isn't an incinerator or landfill we are talking about here. A light rail system would increase property values and make the are more attractive to live in in a lot of ways. This is not a NIMBY issue and dismissing people who don't like the idea as such really doesn't lead to constructive discussion.

The path is not wide enough in large sections (especially at the Rochestown end as was mentioned earlier for P+R. It drops off on both sides into the estuary in places and would need substantial work to widen it. All possible of course and as long as proper separation done it would make a very good solution which would suit all sides.

namloc1980

Ludo wrote: »

That we can all agree on :-)

By time that ever happens, driverless cars will be reality and that in itself will alleviate the issue. So why not encourage Ireland to become the first driverless country (ideal location being an island). Try a 21st century solution rather than a 19th century one.

Very sceptical of those tbh. They are still vehicles on the road taking up the same amount of space. They still will cause traffic.

Driverless cars is a long way off really on any sort of big scale. On a small scale perhaps but that's it. A number of decades away from being truly available on a big scale and don't think we can wait around for the technology to be honest. Besides how much would one of these cost? Or would you hire one for your trip to the beach from Google? As I say a long long way off.

Ludo

namloc1980 wrote: »

Very sceptical of those tbh. They are still vehicles on the road taking up the same amount of space. They still will cause traffic.

Driverless cars is a long way off really on any sort of big scale...... As I say a long long way off.

I'd wager it'll happen before Cork gets any kind of new rail system. Look how long it has taken to get the M20 (if it ever actually happens). Technology moves FAST.

namloc1980

Ludo wrote: »

I'd wager it'll happen before Cork gets any kind of new rail system. Look how long it has taken to get the M20 (if it ever actually happens). Technology moves FAST.

Not sure tbh. We were told a few years back that electric vehicles were the future. That we'd all be switching over to EV. In 2017 less than 0.4% of new car sales in Ireland were EV. Just 600 cars out of 131,000 registered.

The only reason we won't get light rail in Cork is because the government won't fund it, not because autonomous vehicles are around the corner.

marno21

Ludo wrote: »

I'd wager it'll happen before Cork gets any kind of new rail system. Look how long it has taken to get the M20 (if it ever actually happens). Technology moves FAST.

The M20 is getting restarted and a number of potential routes will be published in 2018.

Whatever about the M20, we can't even get a 10km motorway to Corks industrial hub and port carrying 3x the traffic because the locals are throwing a tantrum over it. The new building on Sullivan's Quay is being objected to. The amount of objections the 40 storey is going to get is going to be depressing

Cork has a NIMBY issue, as the rest of the country does. And until it's curbed we will make little progress

whisky_galore

Ludo wrote: »

That we can all agree on :-)

By time that ever happens, driverless cars will be reality and that in itself will alleviate the issue. So why not encourage Ireland to become the first driverless country (ideal location being an island). Try a 21st century solution rather than a 19th century one.

Then you will have the roads clogged with driverless cars, that's about as useful a solution as a chocolate teapot.

j8wk2feszrnpao

namloc1980 wrote: »

Aarhus in Denmark which is similar in size to Cork and like Cork is the second biggest city in the country, just opened its new tram line through the city centre. It's remarkable how similar it is to Cork.

What do the people of Denmark pay in taxes, for such projects, that it makes it similar to Cork?

Ludo

whisky_galore wrote: »

Then you will have the roads clogged with driverless cars, that's about as useful a solution as a chocolate teapot.

Except traffic jams are vastly reduced as throughput at junctions sky rockets. No red lights except for pedestrians. Won't eliminate the problem but reduces it a lot. People can do other things in their slower moving car also of course like read a book and relax so people wont get stressed.
Of course it would all be dependent on NO-ONE being allowed to drive themselves which of course will cause major ructions on the Motors forum :-)

namloc1980

munstermagic11 wrote: »

What do the people of Denmark pay in taxes, for such projects, that it makes it similar to Cork?

Marginal rate in Denmark is 55% with the equivalent here at about 48%. Similar VAT rates with the Danes a bit higher. Social security (USC and PRSI) equivalents are higher in Ireland than in Denmark. Overall higher tax rate in Denmark but not significantly higher than Ireland. Switzerland has a much lower tax rate than Ireland and has a world class transport system. Trying to tie Ireland's lack of investment in infrastructure to tax take is very simplistic and not in any way an accurate way off measuring the reasons why we don't invest in this country in infrastructure.

namloc1980

Ludo wrote: »

Except traffic jams are vastly reduced as throughput at junctions sky rockets. No red lights except for pedestrians. Won't eliminate the problem but reduces it a lot. People can do other things in their slower moving car also of course like read a book and relax so people wont get stressed.
Of course it would all be dependent on NO-ONE being allowed to drive themselves which of course will cause major ructions on the Motors forum :-)

That won't happen for decades. There'll be a significant period (many many years) of transition where there'll be mix of autonomous and regular cars on the road so traffic will still be bad if not worse. Improve public transport in the immediate term or wait for some distant future day when every vehicle on the road is autonomous? I'll go with option A.

clerk

Ford's just announced an $11billion investment in electric cars over the next 5 Years.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-42689637

j8wk2feszrnpao

namloc1980 wrote: »

Trying to tie Ireland's lack of investment in infrastructure to tax take is very simplistic and not in any way an accurate way off measuring the reasons why we don't invest in this country in infrastructure.

My Danish work colleague pays near 45% income tax (from his description they are close to the highest payers of tax in the World) far higher than I do here. And either way, I wasn't using it as a single measuring stick, just an important one when it comes to judging the funds available to a government for spending on public projects (something people always conveniently forget when they start comparisons to the Scandinavian countries).

And as you haven't provided a single figure involved in the cost to build/run/maintain it, how is it funded, will it be used, how will it managed....That is the simplistic attitude why things don't get done.

I'd love to see a light rail system from the city center out to Douglas/Mahon/Wilton/etc.... But is it feasible? Do enough people actually want it?

namloc1980

munstermagic11 wrote: »

My Danish work colleague pays near 45% income tax (from his description they are close to the highest payers of tax in the World) far higher than I do here. And either way, I wasn't using it as a single measuring stick, just an important one when it comes to judging the funds available to a government for spending on public projects (something people always conveniently forget when they start comparisons to the Scandinavian countries).

And as you haven't provided a single figure involved in the cost to build/run/maintain it, how is it funded, will it be used, how will it managed....That is the simplistic attitude why things don't get done.

I'd love to see a light rail system from the city center out to Douglas/Mahon/Wilton/etc.... But is it feasible? Do enough people actually want it?

Many people in Ireland pay 41% tax so there's not a huge difference there. Throw in USC and PRSI and you're at nearly 50%.

Probably talking €800m for a line from Ballincollig to Mahon. Or €200m for BRT. This is based on the feasibility study in 2010 and the cost of the recent Luas extension. The Luas in Dublin is a model of how it'll be managed. This isn't exactly rocket science.

In 2016 there were 12 million Bus Eireann trips in Cork city and suburbs and over 2 million suburban train journeys. That's on a chronically underfunded and much maligned network. So clearly the demand is there.

What I do know is that 100,000 cars a day on the N40 is not sustainable or 70% of city commuters driving in often single occupancy cars is not sustainable. We can think small and stick to car based transport or look forward at something more sustainable. I suspect though we'll stick to the former unfortunately while complaining about having to sit in traffic.

j8wk2feszrnpao

namloc1980 wrote: »

Many people in Ireland pay 41% tax so there's not a huge difference there. Throw in USC and PRSI and you're at nearly 50%.

He's just about on the same wages as me, and we are well apart in terms income tax. They are quoted as being near the top of the paying tax, we are not.
Not wanting to dwell on it that much, as the funding probably could be found; but it'd need to be a correctly managed operation, as I'm sure costs would spiral.

namloc1980 wrote: »

The Luas in Dublin is a model of how it'll be managed.

That doesn't fill me with confidence then.

namloc1980 wrote: »

In 2016 there were 12 million Bus Eireann trips in Cork city and suburbs and over 2 million suburban train journeys. That's on a chronically underfunded and much maligned network. So clearly the demand is there.

All that means very little. How many use the road? Does that mean the demand is there instead?

namloc1980 wrote: »

What I do know is that 100,000 cars a day on the N40 is not sustainable or 70% of city commuters driving in often single occupancy cars is not sustainable. We can think small and stick to car based transport or look forward at something more sustainable. I suspect though we'll stick to the former unfortunately while complaining about having to sit in traffic.

Complaining about sitting in traffic isn't confined to Cork. Even with the Luas, Dublin traffic is brutal. And the thinking small element is not relevant, it's not as if people haven't though of such projects. But just look at the Event Center, we don't have the quality in the city council to actually get it done. I would say the system holds back such projects from getting the proper inspection and evaluation; and then the actual carrying out of the project.

The Dunkettle Interchange (if it works like the Red Cow in Dublin) should help traffic significantly. Once the city boundary extension is resolved, we need to see a plan from the city council to start building upwards, increasing population density in the city, and concurrently plan project such as light rail.

hot buttered scones

munstermagic11 wrote: »

He's just about on the same wages as me, and we are well apart in terms income tax. They are quoted as being near the top of the paying tax, we are not.
Not wanting to dwell on it that much, as the funding probably could be found; but it'd need to be a correctly managed operation, as I'm sure costs would spiral.


That doesn't fill me with confidence then.


All that means very little. How many use the road? Does that mean the demand is there instead?


Complaining about sitting in traffic isn't confined to Cork. Even with the Luas, Dublin traffic is brutal. And the thinking small element is not relevant, it's not as if people haven't though of such projects. But just look at the Event Center, we don't have the quality in the city council to actually get it done. I would say the system holds back such projects from getting the proper inspection and evaluation; and then the actual carrying out of the project.

The Dunkettle Interchange (if it works like the Red Cow in Dublin) should help traffic significantly. Once the city boundary extension is resolved, we need to see a plan from the city council to start building upwards, increasing population density in the city, and concurrently plan project such as light rail.

The Dunkettle upgrade, in connection with the M28 to Ringaskiddy, should hopefully relieve pressure in Mahon Point and result in more free flowing traffic.
I'd agree with your thoughts re: the demand. Where are the cars coming from to Mahon and will running light rail from the City out to Mahon result in a significant enough reduction in traffic to warrant the investment? What use will it be to people coming from East Cork, Ballincollig or Carrigaline directions in their cars?
A holistic approach is needed to solve the traffic problems in Cork, and sorting out one area alone will do nothing except shift the problem somewhere else. Also, once the boundary extension is sorted we need to look at other areas for development rather than adding to areas such as Mahon Point and increasing the difficulties there. There's nothing much going on in the northside other than Apple for example, and plenty of people living there travel across the City every day for work - to areas like Mahon Point. There is a concentration of employment centres running from Little Island through Mahon Point and on to Ringaskiddy all served by the one road network. Is it any wonder there is traffic problems.

who_me

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I'd love to see a light rail system from the city center out to Douglas/Mahon/Wilton/etc.... But is it feasible? Do enough people actually want it?

Pretty much every point where traffic passes under/over the South Ring Road is a major bottleneck in the city, so I think anything that avoids that (such as a light rail line starting in Douglas so people can avoid the Douglas Rd. / South Douglas Rd bottlenecks) would have massive demand.

Mahon Point I think is a bit of a special case, since there's already an 'unused' line available: the old rail line that runs from Rochestown/Passage West, past Mahon Point, and right into the quays which will be the heart of any dockland developments. If it could go all the way up to the Navigation House / One Albert Quay it'd really help kickstart any docklands projects in that area.

I might be swimming against the tide here, but wouldn't a bus-only (or bus & taxi? or bus & car-pool?) route along that old rail line be massively cheaper and more flexible? You can move buses to and from the route as needed, they can continue on to other routes, they can drive around breakdowns, no need to lay/repair tracks etc..etc.. Assuming, of course, it's wide enough and the flyovers are high enough.

I know people are a bit obsessed about light rail, but does it really have the advantages to warrant the lack of flexibility and the cost?

grogi

who_me wrote: »

Pretty much every point where traffic passes under/over the South Ring Road is a major bottleneck in the city, so I think anything that avoids that (such as a light rail line starting in Douglas so people can avoid the Douglas Rd. / South Douglas Rd bottlenecks) would have massive demand.

Mahon Point I think is a bit of a special case, since there's already an 'unused' line available: the old rail line that runs from Rochestown/Passage West, past Mahon Point, and right into the quays which will be the heart of any dockland developments. If it could go all the way up to the Navigation House / One Albert Quay it'd really help kickstart any docklands projects in that area.

I might be swimming against the tide here, but wouldn't a bus-only (or bus & taxi? or bus & car-pool?) route along that old rail line be massively cheaper and more flexible? You can move buses to and from the route as needed, they can continue on to other routes, they can drive around breakdowns, no need to lay/repair tracks etc..etc.. Assuming, of course, it's wide enough and the flyovers are high enough.

I know people are a bit obsessed about light rail, but does it really have the advantages to warrant the lack of flexibility and the cost?

Trams/Light rail have a very weird effect. Objectively their usage should not differ much from busses - but it is. There is something with the rails...

But agreed - a dedicated bus line with frequent departures (say every 12 minutes) that takes no longer than 20 minutes to get from MP to centre seem like a good compromise.

Frostybrew

Shane Ross has dropped hints that light rail will be an option for Cork. Apparently a Cork Transport Strategy is due out in February which will heavily focus on public transport solutions for Cork's traffic woes.

If this is a concrete proposal, it would be a huge boost to the Mahon Point area in terms of alleviating congestion issues.

http://www.corkindependent.com/news/topics/articles/2018/01/17/4150902-cork-light-rail-comments-positive/

TheChizler

Work has been going on to remove all the mature trees from the land across from Supervalu on the Skehard Road. This is the narrowest point of the entire road and would be crucial if they were widening for a bus lane, the rest of the road is certainly wide enough at points prone to traffic. Anyone know if this is happening or is it some housing development? They've fenced off the section across from Maxol near the CSO as well, part of the same works? I could just look up the planning website...