Could you do without the FA Cup?

ITT-Pat

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Forward thinking or not has little to do with it - the FA wouldn't be allowed make such a change anyway. And theres no compelling reason why UEFA would change the qualification rules from being league position based just to satisfy some perceived problem with one countries domestic cup.

As far as I know, UEFA have nothing to do with it and the FA do decide how the places are allocated. UEFA just extend invites to the FA for four teams to participate in the CL and it is up to the FA to decide how they should be allocated.

CSF

ITT-Pat wrote: »

As far as I know, UEFA have nothing to do with it and the FA do decide how the places are allocated. UEFA just extend invites to the FA for four teams to participate in the CL and it is up to the FA to decide how they should be allocated.

You'd imagine so, given how Holland and Belgium are allowed do their European qualification system

ush

The Premiership should always be the yardstick for qualifying to the CL. Using the FA Cup would risk England's coefficient. Its far harder to get top four than slog through a cup competition.

death1234567

SlickRic wrote: »

the day we could do without the FA Cup completely is the day the soul of the game officially dies.

FA Cup as a competition died years ago. Now it's just a pale imitation of what it once was. There is no romance, no shocks, no excitement and most of the top teams just play a reserve side. It's a terrible competition.

ush

rarnes1 wrote: »

Forward thinking is needed though and the FA being the FA that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

Don't mean this as a dig, but you're the one looking backwards. :P

ArmaniJeanss

ITT-Pat wrote: »

As far as I know, UEFA have nothing to do with it and the FA do decide how the places are allocated. UEFA just extend invites to the FA for four teams to participate in the CL and it is up to the FA to decide how they should be allocated.

Rule 2.02 limits it to league places only, FAs no longer have the power of nomination. (it used to be different about 20 years ago when it was pure nomination which is maybe what you are thinking off).

http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/competitions/Regulations/01/79/68/69/1796869_DOWNLOAD.pdf


I know some leagues have occasionally used an end-of-season playoff to decide those placings though I'm not sure if they can anymore, the Dutch no longer do. But fundamentally that would still be driven by league position as opposed to a using a totally different competition for a place.

death1234567

ITT-Pat wrote: »

As far as I know, UEFA have nothing to do with it and the FA do decide how the places are allocated. UEFA just extend invites to the FA for four teams to participate in the CL and it is up to the FA to decide how they should be allocated.

Yeah but the premier league is owned by the teams, not the FA. So there's no chance the premier league would vote to approve any changes to the current top 4 for CL structure. They want the PL to be the dominant competition and don't give a stuff about the FA cup.

death1234567

One thing that would improve the competition instantly is to get rid of replays, and maybe moving the later rounds from Round 5 on to midweek.

iDave

death1234567 wrote: »

FA Cup as a competition died years ago. Now it's just a pale imitation of what it once was. There is no romance, no shocks, no excitement and most of the top teams just play a reserve side. It's a terrible competition.

Wigan 1 Man City 0......in the final.....in the last minute!

dsmythy

Every country should have a strong cup competition. England included. Up to them I guess how much they want it.

mosstin wrote: »

It's the FA Cup and you're a football fan. Why do you honestly give a **** about the money?

You give a damn if your club needs the money....

ush

ush wrote: »

Don't mean this as a dig, but you're the one looking backwards. :P

Ok...

happydayz182

iDave wrote: »

Wigan 1 Man City 0......in the final.....in the last minute!

Exactly - This what the F.A Cup can provide and in fairness does a fairly regular job of doing so!

pickarooney

LiamoSail wrote: »

Chelsea are hardly an example of the typical premier league club given their financing & the questionable motives of their owner.

Bolton are a good example of the consequences of relegation. How many owners do you think would be happy to suffer the faith of Bolton while winning an FA cup, rather then staying in the league and remaining financially stable

most of them I'd assume. is there a single owner who actually makes money out of owning a club? a sports team is a status symbol for the very rich. the fact that you can afford to their money about is the whole point. all the better if you can win something from time to time but survival and financial stability are antithetical to sports club ownership. i don't understand why fans don't feel the same. managers and players, whose livelihoods depend on the clubs stability, are the only ones who could realistically consider treading water as anything other than a compete waste of time.

RasTa

I think there should only be one domestic cup myself, although who gets to play in that paint trophy?

FA cup only for the premier league clubs and everyone else.

league/paint for the rest

major bill

The first 2 rounds of the cup are my favourite. ''Pub'' sides (Quite decent ones) taking on Football League teams on ****ty pitches in clapped out grounds, thats what football to the average joe is about and what it once was. If Premier League teams want to disrespect it then let them the cup isn't all about them.

764dak

mikeym wrote: »

Portsmouth won the Fa Cup a few years back and look were they are now.

If you ask a Portsmouth fan now would they prefer an fa cup or financial stability they wouldnt care for the fa cup.

Didn't Leeds run into financial problems because of wanting consistent qualification to your beloved Champions League?

EuropeanSon

764dak wrote: »

Didn't Leeds run into financial problems because of wanting consistent qualification to your beloved Champions League?

They ran into financial problems because of assuming consistent qualification to his beloved Champions League, which they then didn't achieve.

That was just stupid financial planning, the fault of whoever was in charge of the finances.

LiamoSail

With the decline in interest in the cup, you'd think they'd have a bit of sense and put one of the three o'clock kick offs on tv. There's little live football on terrestrial tv, seems daft they'd miss what is an opportunity to promote the cup

smileyj1987

LiamoSail wrote: »

With the decline in interest in the cup, you'd think they'd have a bit of sense and put one of the three o'clock kick offs on tv. There's little live football on terrestrial tv, seems daft they'd miss what is an opportunity to promote the cup

In fairness you could have 5 cup games on free to air over the weekend . If they want to promote it this would be the best thing they could do .

That_Guy

Could take it or leave it. In all honesty, I'd completely forgotten it was an FA Cup weekend this weekend.

Used to love it but since they've moved the semi finals to Wembley as well as the final, it takes away from the competition somewhat. There was something great about neutral grounds before you get to the showpiece stadium.

I guess with the influx of televised games, it just feels like another ordinary game sometimes.

It's a pity that I feel that way because it's a competition I loved more than the league itself growing up.

I still enjoy the upsets and watching moment like Havant and Waterlooville (especially with the kid crying when they took the lead against Liverpool) make the competition worth watching still.

Last year's FA Cup final was really enjoyable and it's always nice to see the coined "David Vs Goliath" outcomes every so often.

With BT Sport taking the FA Cup this year, I feel like I'm being forced to buy the magic of the cup which I don't necessarily want to.

Skylinehead

LiamoSail wrote: »

With the decline in interest in the cup, you'd think they'd have a bit of sense and put one of the three o'clock kick offs on tv. There's little live football on terrestrial tv, seems daft they'd miss what is an opportunity to promote the cup

It's illegal. Not exactly anything they can do about it.

LiamoSail

Skylinehead wrote: »

It's illegal. Not exactly anything they can do about it.

Is that to do with the possibility that televised games could adversely affect attendances?

KevIRL

LiamoSail wrote: »

Is that to do with the possibility that televised games could adversely affect attendances?

Yep and hence why no games are allowed to be broadcast during the season on UK TV on Saturday afternoons up till 17:15. One of the Classico's last year that kicked off at 5pm on a Saturday didnt actually get shown live until 5.15

KevIRL

KevIRL wrote: »

Yep and hence why no games are allowed to be broadcast during the season on UK TV on Saturday afternoons up till 17:15. One of the Classico's last year that kicked off at 5pm on a Saturday didnt actually get shown live until 5.15

Really?

LiamoSail

KevIRL wrote: »

Yep and hence why no games are allowed to be broadcast during the season on UK TV on Saturday afternoons up till 17:15. One of the Classico's last year that kicked off at 5pm on a Saturday didnt actually get shown live until 5.15

Makes sense alright, obviously why setanta get the 3pm Saturday games

Fr Tod Umptious

Today Villa lost to a third division struggler.

If this was 1987 all and sundry would be talking about this as a great giant killing.

However in the light of what Lambert said this week, and the way the FA Cup has gone, many will see it as Villa not being too pushed about losing

CSF

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Today Villa lost to a third division struggler.

If this was 1987 all and sundry would be talking about this as a great giant killing.

However in the light of what Lambert said this week, and the way the FA Cup has gone, many will see it as Villa not being too pushed about losing

Was at the game. Makeshift Villa defence, and that wasn't anything to do with Lambert devaluing the competition. Was pretty much the first choice team outside of that and giving the sub keeper a run. Always fancied Sheff United against that defence.

MaroonAndGreen

Sheffield United of League One going to Villa Park and knocking out Premier League's Aston Villa.

Whats not to love?

764dak

ush wrote: »

The Premiership should always be the yardstick for qualifying to the CL. Using the FA Cup would risk England's coefficient. Its far harder to get top four than slog through a cup competition.

It's also far harder to win the league than the Champions League sometimes yet everyone uses it as a measuring stick.

jonnny68

League of Ireland is my first love , but I'm also a long standing Man United fan who has been going home and away for years (away games mostly now as OT is like a morgue at the best of times.

Anyway for anyone a certain age the FA Cup holds some special memories I remember 1979 the day I made my first Communion and watching Arsenal v United in the FA Cup Final at Wembley, I cried my eyes out when Alan Sunderland scored the winner, as wide eyed young lad I wanted nothing more than to become a footballer (still do but a bit late now) ;-)

I remember in 1981 Ossie Ardiles and Ricky Villa for Spurs v Man City when there was little or no foreigners in the English game, Norman Whiteside at 18 winning it for United in 83, The crazy gang of Wimbledon winning it in 1988.

Liverpool beating Everton in 89,a final which was overshadowed by the Hillsborough disaster, United winning the replay v Palace after an epic 3-3 draw in 1990,Cantona scoring and winning it for United in 96 not to mention all the giant killing over the years, etc etc

It's lost a lot of its magic over the years with the dilution of football by the corporate and middle classes, so back to the original point despite everything the FA Cup should always be treated seriously by all.

death1234567

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Sheffield United of League One going to Villa Park and knocking out Premier League's Aston Villa.

Whats not to love?

The fact that the Aston Villa manager came out before the game and said in not so many words that he couldn't give two figs about the FA cup and that it just gets in the way. See also West Ham's team for yesterday's farce against forest.

Dolph Starbeam

Just combine the FA Cup with the League Cup and make it one FA League Cup. Spain, Italy and Germany only have one cup competition. Two cups and no winter break is very hard on teams and players.

Fr Tod Umptious

jonnny68 wrote: »

League of Ireland is my first love , but I'm also a long standing Man United fan who has been going home and away for years (away games mostly now as OT is like a morgue at the best of times.

Anyway for anyone a certain age the FA Cup holds some special memories I remember 1979 the day I made my first Communion and watching Arsenal v United in the FA Cup Final at Wembley, I cried my eyes out when Alan Sunderland scored the winner, as wide eyed young lad I wanted nothing more than to become a footballer (still do but a bit late now) ;-)

I remember in 1981 Ossie Ardiles and Ricky Villa for Spurs v Man City when there was little or no foreigners in the English game, Norman Whiteside at 18 winning it for United in 83, The crazy gang of Wimbledon winning it in 1988.

Liverpool beating Everton in 89,a final which was overshadowed by the Hillsborough disaster, United winning the replay v Palace after an epic 3-3 draw in 1990,Cantona scoring and winning it for United in 96 not to mention all the giant killing over the years, etc etc

It's lost a lot of its magic over the years with the dilution of football by the corporate and middle classes, so back to the original point despite everything the FA Cup should always be treated seriously by all.

I am about the same vintage as yourself and I remember all of those things, and I'd add Coventry's 1997 victory and Palace's 1990 win over Liverpool in the SF also.

But the reason I did not get as much from Wigan's 1-0 last season as I did from Wimbledon's 1-0 in 1988 is because I was 16 back then, and 41 when Wigan won.
The FA Cup no longer holds the same interest for me because I am older, not because the semi-finals are at Wembley, or because the FA wanted Utd to skip the cup in 2000, or because they are on BT Sport, or because the final is on at 5.15pm

I'm not sure what 16 year olds though of Wigan's win last year.
But I'd image something like the last round of the CL group stages in early December, with all it's various permutations, catches the young persons football imagination these days just as much as Sutton Utd v Coventry did back in the day.

Cienciano

I could do without the FA cup the way it is now, but english football is a lesser place with the demise of the fa cup.
In the 90's when I was younger everyone loved the fa cup, especially the 3rd round.

cathalio11

I've skipped 6 pages here, so please forgive me if this has been brought up:

I believe the FA Cup could do with a slight shaking up to be made the mammoth it once was again. There are arguments both ways for this addition so and I don't know which way I would go, but it's just a suggestion for the FA Cup:

If the ultimate prize is switched from a Europa League place to the 4th Champions League place, the cup will become huge again with all 20 Premier League clubs playing their hearts out, except for maybe a team who is dominating in 1st place in the league.

Of course, there would be a lot of arguments against but it's just a little idea to boost the FA Cup. One of the notable arguments against is that if Fulham win, which would be highly unlikely with the top 7 trying their hardest, they would not make the group stages and it would harm English football and we could end up losing the 4th seed.

Anyways, I am a fan of the FA Cup but probably wouldn't support the idea itself but I'd love to see it more keenly contested.

wandatowell

Semi final's at Villa Park, unreal.

wandatowell

cathalio11 wrote: »

If the ultimate prize is switched from a Europa League place to the 4th Champions League place, the cup will become huge again with all 20 Premier League clubs playing their hearts out, except for maybe a team who is dominating in 1st place in the league.

Of course, there would be a lot of arguments against but it's just a little idea to boost the FA Cup. One of the notable arguments against is that if Fulham win, which would be highly unlikely with the top 7 trying their hardest, they would not make the group stages and it would harm English football and we could end up losing the 4th seed.

Didnt Wigan get relegated and win the FA in the same year?

If that repeated itself then you'd have a Championship team in the Champions League or at least in the qualifying stages.

cathalio11

wandatowell wrote: »

Didnt Wigan get relegated and win the FA in the same year?

If that repeated itself then you'd have a Championship team in the Champions League or at least in the qualifying stages.

Yeah, that's very true.

But you also have to remember that a lot of top 7 teams got knocked out by resting a lot of players.

If a Champions League berth was up for grabs, would Liverpool have rested most of their team against Oldham? Liverpool of all teams would have done their very best to win as would Arsenal, Spurs, Everton etc.

I don't mean to de-value Wigan's win but it probably wouldn't have happened if the FA Cup was taken more seriously by every Premier League team.

bazza1

Football is big business..so the FA cup is seen as a distraction by the managers and boards of the big clubs. EPL and CL is where the money is.Clubs should think of the fans who pay money at the stiles and subscriptions to Sky and BT! The fans want to go to FA Cup games and see all their best players play. The fans want a day at Wembley and win silverware! But its all about the money for the big boys!

ArmaniJeanss

cathalio11 wrote: »

I've skipped 6 pages here, so please forgive me if this has been brought up:

I believe the FA Cup could do with a slight shaking up to be made the mammoth it once was again. There are arguments both ways for this addition so and I don't know which way I would go, but it's just a suggestion for the FA Cup:

If the ultimate prize is switched from a Europa League place to the 4th Champions League place.....

Current UEFA rules specify that its league places only to decide who gets the spots.

v3ttel

Cienciano wrote: »

In the 90's when I was younger everyone loved the fa cup, especially the 3rd round.

Same as this. I loved waiting for the cup draws, especially the third round so you get crazy pairings. It seemed like a massive competition at the time.

Over the years it's lost it's appeal, possibly because of how successful and accessible the Champions League has become. Away to Sheffield Wednesday, becomes a lot less appealing, and a pain to fit into the fixture list when you're "change from the norm" moves from Hillsborough to the Vicente Calderon, Bernabeu, etc for the bigger clubs at least.

Obviously the massive gulf financially between Premier League survival and relegation makes clubs look over their shoulder. Clubs will case the money and their long term prospects rather than risking a once off cup run.

The semi finals being in Wembley does take some of the novelty out of "Cup Final" day too.

Fr Tod Umptious

bazza1 wrote: »

Football is big business..so the FA cup is seen as a distraction by the managers and boards of the big clubs. EPL and CL is where the money is.Clubs should think of the fans who pay money at the stiles and subscriptions to Sky and BT! The fans want to go to FA Cup games and see all their best players play. The fans want a day at Wembley and win silverware! But its all about the money for the big boys!

Do they, or do they prefer to see their team play in the EPL season after season or in Europe ?

Would fans of West Ham prefer to spend 2014/2015 paying money at the stiles and for TV subs to see Aresnal, Utd, Spurs, Chelase, etc etc or to see Ipswich, Doncaster etc etc

smileyj1987

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Current UEFA rules specify that its league places only to decide who gets the spots.

To me that's proper order too . It would be sad to see the fa cup as way of getting into the champions league !

764dak

smileyj1987 wrote: »

To me that's proper order too . It would be sad to see the fa cup as way of getting into the champions league !

It's only sad because you are not used to it. The equivalent of the FA Cup winners in Brazil, Argentina and USA get to qualify for their respective equivalent of the Champions League.

764dak

YayaBanana wrote: »

Just combine the FA Cup with the League Cup and make it one FA League Cup. Spain, Italy and Germany only have one cup competition. Two cups and no winter break is very hard on teams and players.

Who cares about Spain, Italy and Germany? France, Ireland, other British nations, Iceland, Hong Kong, and many other countries have multiple domestic cup competitions.

keith16

764dak wrote: »

Who cares about Spain, Italy and Germany? France, Ireland, other British nations, Iceland, Hong Kong, and many other countries have multiple domestic cup competitions.

Yeah, who cares about those nobodies of Germany, Italy and Spain. Only the 8 world cups between them sure.

GLaDOS

764dak wrote: »

Who cares about Spain, Italy and Germany? France, Ireland, other British nations, Iceland, Hong Kong, and many other countries have multiple domestic cup competitions.

Ireland have too Many!

FAI Cup
League Cup
Leinster/Munster Senior Cups
Setanta Cup

Along with European Qualification and the League a team could be playing in 6 competitions :eek: