Football Championship 2014

ProudDUB

harpsman wrote: »

Rub it in why dont you:mad:
I know you ve had tight games in Leinster in the past but Dublin are improving all the time with their best players at their peak, new young players coming through with underage success behind them and the likes of OGara adding a great option when plan A isnt firing-look at the difference he made in last years AIF.
So really, talking about games from 3 years ago isnt really relevant. I do agree with you that compacency is their biggest enemy at this stage-problem for the rest of us is that if Dublin did get caught in Leinster they wont make the same mistake twice-so I hope you have your possible off day at quarter final stage:)

In a discussion about how a team will do in the upcoming championship, how they did in the past few championship campaigns is not relevant? If we apply that logic, then they will have to pretty much shut down boards, as what else is there to talk about? (Mind you, Mayo fans will probably be pretty happy about it. :P )

Of course we have high hopes for EO'G & the U21's making a big impact this summer, but that is all they are...hopes. Until someone invents a crystal ball, the past is the only real concrete thing that we have to go on & talk about.

In the case of Meath, it is relevant, not just in the general sense, but in the specific too. They have always done a good job frustrating Cluxton in his kick outs, keeping BB relatively quiet, as well not being shy to mix it up in the physical stakes. They generally give us a hard tight game in Leinster finals. How can that not all still be relevant in talking about this years Leinster final, especially as those old chestnuts of lack of hunger and complaceny will be a factor this year too?

harpsman

ProudDUB wrote: »

In a discussion about how a team will do in the upcoming championship, how they did in the past few championship campaigns is not relevant? If we apply that logic, then they will have to pretty much shut down boards, as what else is there to talk about? (Mind you, Mayo fans will probably be pretty happy about it. :P )

Of course we have high hopes for EO'G & the U21's making a big impact this summer, but that is all they are...hopes. Until someone invents a crystal ball, the past is the only real concrete thing that we have to go on & talk about.

In the case of Meath, it is relevant, not just in the general sense, but in the specific too. They have always done a good job frustrating Cluxton in his kick outs, keeping BB relatively quiet, as well not being shy to mix it up in the physical stakes. They generally give us a hard tight game in Leinster finals. How can that not all still be relevant in talking about this years Leinster final, especially as those old chestnuts of lack of hunger and complaceny will be a factor this year too?

~I didnt say a sides previous form is always irrelevant,although even then 3 years ago is pushing it a bit. In a specific post about Dublin(i cant believe im even explaining this) i said what happened in certain games 3 years ago is irrelevant because so much has changed in the meantime, eg Dublin have so much more firepower now and Kildare and Wexford have gone back alot.
Likewise Donegal got hammered out the gate by a poor Armagh team in 2010,but when say discussing a match of theirs in 2012 this had no relevance because so much had changed. (no offence but major sigh:))

Always_Running

Lemlin wrote: »

How have Dublin been dominant at U21 level? Longford knocked them out in the first round last year. This year I expect Roscommon to beat them in the final.

I'd be wary of predicting teams to dominate. Alot expected the likes of Donegal in the past to dominate and they've regressed.

There's alot of effort put into training and its hard to motivate yourself to go back again after a long hard season where you've attained your ultimate goal.

Whatever about Dublin going on to be dominant at senior level they are certainly not dominant at U-21 level. Galway won 2011,2013 U-21 All Irelands and an Cork supporter like Gary Neville should be well aware of this having beaten his side twice along the way.

The key for Dublin seniors is superb management. Isn't many better than Jim Gavin he leaves no stone unturned and always appoints the very best to work with him.

WesternZulu

keane2097 wrote: »

Mayo IMO hit the maximum performance level they've hit in my lifetime against Donegal last year.

If they produce a performance at or above that level again in the next five years I'll be pretty surprised.

I reckon their performance against Dublin in 2012 was probably better.

harpsman

WesternZulu wrote: »

I reckon their performance against Dublin in 2012 was probably better.

Id agree that their first 50 mins against Dublin that day was better, but it was an unmerciful collapse in the last 20,when Dublin really should have won it.Very hard to rate performance v Donegal as Don. were dead in the water, but it certainly looked pretty good(longest 35 mins i ve had to sit through:()

corny

keane2097 wrote: »

I think it was an over-achievement by them based on fanatical workrate and intensity that I don't see them being able to replicate again.

Add in the fact that their shooting return on that particular day was high to the point of being pretty much an anomaly, which again I don't think they'll ever reproduce (some might be interested - http://dontfoul.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/donegal-v-mayo-2013/).

I wouldn't agree. I think they worked harder (definitely over the full 70) in the final against Dublin. The key difference was they got less reward for their efforts because Dublin weren't inept. I was at both games and the final was absolute brutal attrition in warm weather. The Donegal game was a procession.

On the accuracy? Its a lot easier to be accurate when your man doesn't really want to know about it!;) Dublin in 2012 afforded them the same luxury and they were equally deadly if i'm not mistaken.

For me, they can hit the same heights if the appetite is still there. Very admirable side and manager though so i wouldn't be surprised at all. Whether it'll be good enough is another matter.

Gary Neville

Always_Running wrote: »

Whatever about Dublin going on to be dominant at senior level they are certainly not dominant at U-21 level. Galway won 2011,2013 U-21 All Irelands and an Cork supporter like Gary Neville should be well aware of this having beaten his side twice along the way.

The key for Dublin seniors is superb management. Isn't many better than Jim Gavin he leaves no stone unturned and always appoints the very best to work with him.

There is no denying Galways outstanding recent record at u21. However, I see Dublin as doing better. They have a superb under-age structure aimed at developing elite players and taking them to Senior Level.

Dublin have 7 U21's in their Senior Squad (a squad rated by many as the best in the country) and AFAIK Kilkenny & O Brien would be involved too but for injury.

That's where Galway fall down IMO - Dublin are well ahead at the moment IMO and Cork come next - there are 9 current U21's currently training with the Cork Senior Squad.
I regard winning trophies as one aspect of U21 success but I place more importance in creating a converyor belt of talent for the Senior Squad.

Dublin and to a lesser extent Cork are leading the way - Roscommon and Cavan are getting there but Galway was a notable failure.

Management is obviously very important but IMO producing quality players is more important.

Gary Neville

The Football Championship is getting more difficult to call - even by the day.

Donegal look just about ready to implode. Derry were awful v Dublin. Cork were awful v Dublin in the 2nd half. Mayo were awful v Derry and so on.


It looks like every contender has serious problems right now apart from Dublin. Monaghan look good but would not be really seen as contenders.

Everybody seems ready to present Sam to the Dubs already even though they needed a last gasp point from Connolly to make the League Semi and were brutal in the first half of that semi.

An interesting season ahead.

Godge

Gary Neville wrote: »

The Football Championship is getting more difficult to call - even by the day.

Donegal look just about ready to implode. Derry were awful v Dublin. Cork were awful v Dublin in the 2nd half. Mayo were awful v Derry and so on.


It looks like every contender has serious problems right now apart from Dublin. Monaghan look good but would not be really seen as contenders.

Everybody seems ready to present Sam to the Dubs already even though they needed a last gasp point from Connolly to make the League Semi and were brutal in the first half of that semi.

An interesting season ahead.

Monaghan could be a threat to Dublin.

One thing seems clear especially from the League and that is that Gavin and Dublin learn a lot from setbacks. The two matches against Derry and Cork in the regular series were very different to the knock-out matches with Dublin stepping up a gear and learning from their earlier mistakes.

You can surprise the Dubs first time out it seems. Monaghan have the big-game experience from last year but didn't play the Dubs in the League and will be a new test. This may give them a chance which arguably better teams like Cork and Mayo do not have.

It is hard to think of anyone else in a similar situation. Laois or Meath in Leinster but that would give the Dubs a backdoor chance.

GBXI

harpsman wrote: »

Id agree that their first 50 mins against Dublin that day was better, but it was an unmerciful collapse in the last 20,when Dublin really should have won it.Very hard to rate performance v Donegal as Don. were dead in the water, but it certainly looked pretty good(longest 35 mins i ve had to sit through:()

I don't believe this to be true at all. If it was an unmerciful collapse they'd have lost the game, not won it by 3. Also Mayo outscored Dublin in the last 10 minutes of the game. The Dubs, who are very hard to stop when they get on a roll, like any team will have a purple patch and they did that but it wasn't enough.

For me that was a better performance than the Donegal game. Donegal gave up and before they have up they were very poor. The Dubs didn't give up and Mayo were made work for their win.

iDave

Not sure what to make of Down/Tyrone. A dire game saved by an excited last quarter.
Tyrone must be wondering how they left that behind. Cruising for most of the match and needed a last gasp point to rescue a draw.

Bealin is very much in trouble in Westmeath. No one expected a good league but a home loss to Louth who were relegated to Div 3 wasn't on the cards. Hard to see this Westmeath team having much of a qualifier run tbh.

Lemlin

iDave wrote: »

Not sure what to make of Down/Tyrone. A dire game saved by an excited last quarter.
Tyrone must be wondering how they left that behind. Cruising for most of the match and needed a last gasp point to rescue a draw.

Bealin is very much in trouble in Westmeath. No one expected a good league but a home loss to Louth who were relegated to Div 3 wasn't on the cards. Hard to see this Westmeath team having much of a qualifier run tbh.

Down missed a fantastic chance to go three points ahead that would have killed the game.

The Ulster championship is wide open. Any of Monaghan, Donegal, Derry, Down or Tyrone could win it IMO. I don't think Cavan or Armagh are capable of winning it but I think they could beat any of those teams if they got their game right and things went their way.

Would love to see Roscommon or Galway come back to the fore in Connaught and make things exciting again.

keane2097

Very disappointing lack of quality from Tyrone, expected them to be live contenders this year but it seems they're as far away this year as they were last.

Lemlin

keane2097 wrote: »

Very disappointing lack of quality from Tyrone, expected them to be live contenders this year but it seems they're as far away this year as they were last.

I never read too much into a team's first performance tbh. Tyrone were disappointing but I wouldn't be surprised to see them bounce back and come back stronger.

At the end of the day, they dug out the draw. They never should have been in that position but they weren't beat and that's the positive they'll draw on.

harpsman

Lemlin wrote: »

Down missed a fantastic chance to go three points ahead that would have killed the game.

The Ulster championship is wide open. Any of Monaghan, Donegal, Derry, Down or Tyrone could win it IMO. I don't think Cavan or Armagh are capable of winning it but I think they could beat any of those teams if they got their game right and things went their way.

Would love to see Roscommon or Galway come back to the fore in Connaught and make things exciting again.

Didnt realise you had a bit of Kerry in you Lemlin-ah sure Cavan have no chance:). You might be right but you should have beaten Monaghan last year so wouldnt rule Cavan out.

Lemlin

harpsman wrote: »

Didnt realise you had a bit of Kerry in you Lemlin-ah sure Cavan have no chance:). You might be right but you should have beaten Monaghan last year so wouldnt rule Cavan out.

I don't know about that now. They had a perfectly good goal disallowed at the start of the game that should have at least been a penalty.

We were happy with our lot last year. 7 competitive championship games is a big change to the two or max three we'd grown used to since 2005!

I think we're still a year or two and another scoring forward away from challenging for Ulster IMO.

keane2097

Lemlin wrote: »

I never read too much into a team's first performance tbh. Tyrone were disappointing but I wouldn't be surprised to see them bounce back and come back stronger.

At the end of the day, they dug out the draw. They never should have been in that position but they weren't beat and that's the positive they'll draw on.

The fact that Down are useless removes any sense of positive from the performance to my mind.

Lemlin

keane2097 wrote: »

The fact that Down are useless removes any sense of positive from the performance to my mind.

Down are a Division 2 team. Ulster football doesn't make any team look particularly good. It's more about stopping the opposition than actually playing.

davegrohl48

Conor Gormley coming on as a sub for Tyrone. Fine player but last year it looked as if should be his final season. Makes me think Tyrone lack bench cover. Kyle Coney is excellent for some time now. Himself and Cavanagh carrying this team?Accurate if you look at generally who is Tyrones man o the match in most games.

Redsoxfan

keane2097 wrote: »

The fact that Down are useless removes any sense of positive from the performance to my mind.

Woah, Down aren't 'useless'. They had a poor first half for sure, and Tyrone probably should have been further ahead at half time. But, once they got their best player (McKernan) more involved, and attacked with more precision, they were a different proposition. They were my outside bet for Ulster before a ball was kicked, and if they can get past Tyrone, I would fancy them against Monaghan given Monaghan's injuries.

For all the talk of 'transition' and 'conveyor belt of talent', it was the same old heads that Mickey Harte turned to at his time of need yesterday. When the final whistle blew, we saw Sean Cavanagh, Stephen O'Neill, Martin Penrose, Justin McMahon and Conor Gormley on the pitch. Kyle Coney looks the real deal as long as he gets enough ball, but Tyrone's defensive effort yesterday was shocking, and I wouldn't trust their midfield much either, although the change in keeper probably didn't help things.

Oisin McConville called it right before the game yesterday - Ulster may be competitive, but there aren't any All Ireland contenders within. Tyrone would need to make a massive improvement to give Dublin or Mayo a game, and Cork and Kerry would have enough scoring power cause them serious issues. I wouldn't be surprised to see three or four changes in defence the next day out and persisting with Mattie Donnelly at 6 is madness. No better team than Tyrone for the Qualifiers, but, they are on the harder side of the draw this year. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if they get it right in Newry on Saturday night.

I have asked BBC and RTE several times if they are showing the replay live, but have got no answer. I'm assuming that the game won't be shown live which is a pity.

Fr Tod Umptious

Lemlin wrote: »

Down missed a fantastic chance to go three points ahead that would have killed the game.

The Ulster championship is wide open. Any of Monaghan, Donegal, Derry, Down or Tyrone could win it IMO. I don't think Cavan or Armagh are capable of winning it but I think they could beat any of those teams if they got their game right and things went their way.

Would love to see Roscommon or Galway come back to the fore in Connaught and make things exciting again.

Based on the way the draw is structured I think Galway have a great chance of making the quarter finals.

Here is why
This year the qualifiers are split into two groups A and B, and each provincial championship has an A and a B half.
Up to the finals losers from the A side of the provincial championships go to the A side of the qualifiers, and the same goes for B.
Connaught and Munster provincial losers go to the A qualifier, and Ulster and Leinster losers go to the B side.

So here are the A and B teams
Group A: Donegal, Derry, Fermanagh, Antrim, Tipperary, Limerick, Cork, Galway, London, Sligo, Wicklow, Laois, Longford, Offaly, Wexford, Dublin

Group B: Tyrone, Down, Armagh, Cavan, Monaghan, Clare, Waterford, Kerry, Leitrim, Roscommon, Mayo, Westmeath, Louth, Kildare, Carlow, Meath

So Galway are in Group A
If the beat London and Sligo, which is very possible, and loose the Connaught final, also possible, then they will meet one of the last two remaining A side qualifiers.
So that could be one of Donegal or Derry, or any of Fermanagh, Antrim, Tipperary, Limerick, Wicklow, Laois, Longford, Offaly, Wexford.
It's unlikely that Dublin will loose before the Leinster final, and I am not sure if they can meet Sligo or London in Rnd 4 after beating them earlier in Connaught.
And they cannot meet Cork or Kerry as they would also be in the provincial losers pot for the Rnd 4 draw.

Out of their potential opponents only Derry or Donegal would really be a tough opposition.

Roscommon have a tougher task however if they loose to Mayo, they go into the B side of the qualifiers at Rnd 2 with a whole host of good teams likely to end up in the group.

Lemlin

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Based on the way the draw is structured I think Galway have a great chance of making the quarter finals.

Here is why
This year the qualifiers are split into two groups A and B, and each provincial championship has an A and a B half.
Up to the finals losers from the A side of the provincial championships go to the A side of the qualifiers, and the same goes for B.
Connaught and Munster provincial losers go to the A qualifier, and Ulster and Leinster losers go to the B side.

So here are the A and B teams
Group A: Donegal, Derry, Fermanagh, Antrim, Tipperary, Limerick, Cork, Galway, London, Sligo, Wicklow, Laois, Longford, Offaly, Wexford, Dublin

Group B: Tyrone, Down, Armagh, Cavan, Monaghan, Clare, Waterford, Kerry, Leitrim, Roscommon, Mayo, Westmeath, Louth, Kildare, Carlow, Meath

So Galway are in Group A
If the beat London and Sligo, which is very possible, and loose the Connaught final, also possible, then they will meet one of the last two remaining A side qualifiers.
So that could be one of Donegal or Derry, or any of Fermanagh, Antrim, Tipperary, Limerick, Wicklow, Laois, Longford, Offaly, Wexford.
It's unlikely that Dublin will loose before the Leinster final, and I am not sure if they can meet Sligo or London in Rnd 4 after beating them earlier in Connaught.
And they cannot meet Cork or Kerry as they would also be in the provincial losers pot for the Rnd 4 draw.

Out of their potential opponents only Derry or Donegal would really be a tough opposition.

Roscommon have a tougher task however if they loose to Mayo, they go into the B side of the qualifiers at Rnd 2 with a whole host of good teams likely to end up in the group.

What is the reasoning for this Group A and B? Would it not make better sense to place teams who have played each other already in opposite groupings to avoid rematches?

For example, Cavan played Fermanagh in the Ulster quarter final last year and then played them again in round 2 of the qualifiers.

frostyjacks

I hope the replay is televised, but looks unlikely. BBC are showing golf, they won't move that. RTE2 have the CL final. RTE1 have Six One news followed Mr Poppers Penguins. Can't see them rescheduling at short notice. Hopefully there's a good quality stream for it.

Redsoxfan

frostyjacks wrote: »

I hope the replay is televised, but looks unlikely. BBC are showing golf, they won't move that. RTE2 have the CL final. RTE1 have Six One news followed Mr Poppers Penguins. Can't see them rescheduling at short notice. Hopefully there's a good quality stream for it.

Austin O'Callaghan just confirmed on Twitter that it's not being televised.

Fr Tod Umptious

Lemlin wrote: »

What is the reasoning for this Group A and B? Would it not make better sense to place teams who have played each other already in opposite groupings to avoid rematches?

For example, Cavan played Fermanagh in the Ulster quarter final last year and then played them again in round 2 of the qualifiers.

I think it's an attempt to make sure teams get a gap between games.
Starting on June 21st A and B qualifiers will be on alternate Saturdays.
It also means that provincial losers do not have a six day turn around.

But it makes the chance of rematches more likely which I am not sure is that appealing to the teams or the public.

I also notice that the Connaught and Munster winners will only play the winners from the A qualifiers, and Ulster and Leinster will play B.

That makes an already very weak Connaught/Munster side of the All Ireland Series draw even weaker.

Always_Running

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I think it's an attempt to make sure teams get a gap between games.
Starting on June 21st A and B qualifiers will be on alternate Saturdays.
It also means that provincial losers do not have a six day turn around.

But it makes the chance of rematches more likely which I am not sure is that appealing to the teams or the public.

I also notice that the Connaught and Munster winners will only play the winners from the A qualifiers, and Ulster and Leinster will play B.

That makes an already very weak Connaught/Munster side of the All Ireland Series draw even weaker.

For example you could be looking at another Donegal v mayo quarter final?

Fr Tod Umptious

Always_Running wrote: »

For example you could be looking at another Donegal v mayo quarter final?

Mayo v Kerry is probably more likely if you ask me
Mayo win Connaught – highly likely
Kerry loose Munster to Cork, in Cork –quiet likely
Kerry are then in Rnd 4 Qualifier Group A,
Donegal or Derry may be there but not both of them, the rest are pretty poor.
If Kerry win that then they play Muster or Connaught winner in Quarter Final
They cannot play Cork (as they played them in the Munster final)
So they play Mayo.

harpsman

Lemlin wrote: »

What is the reasoning for this Group A and B? Would it not make better sense to place teams who have played each other already in opposite groupings to avoid rematches?

For example, Cavan played Fermanagh in the Ulster quarter final last year and then played them again in round 2 of the qualifiers.

Think the main reason is to prevent provincial final losers playing 6 days later- so the Ulster and Leinster runners up dont play their r4 qualifier til the August bank holiday.

Fr Tod Umptious

harpsman wrote: »

Think the main reason is to prevent provincial final losers playing 6 days later- so the Ulster and Leinster runners up dont play their r4 qualifier til the August bank holiday.

Correct, and the quarter final will no longer be on the same weekend as a result.

Leinster and Ulster v qualifier will be on the weekend after the bank holiday

Connaught and Munster v qualifiers will be on the bank holiday weekend

Munster champs have 4 week break
Connaught, Leinster and Munster 3 weeks

A bit daft if you ask me

http://www.gaa.ie/fixtures-and-results/national-fixtures/gaa-football-all-ireland-senior-championship/ulster/

munchkin_utd

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

<snip>
A bit daft if you ask me

http://www.gaa.ie/fixtures-and-results/national-fixtures/gaa-football-all-ireland-senior-championship/ulster/

no it isnt, and it lets counties plan club fixtures properly.

Take the ulster teams in group 1.
If they get to the Ulster semi final then they play:

Sunday June 22nd, 2014
Ulster GAA Football Senior Championship 2014 Semi Final
2 00 PM
Derry / Donegalvs.Fermanagh / Antrim

if they are in the qualifier they play a day earlier

Saturday June 21st, 2014
GAA Football All Ireland Senior Championship 2014 Round 1A
TBCvs.TBC

So a county is 100% certain that their team will have a game on this weekend and can plan that in the fixture calendar from before christmas or whenever its done.

And the same is for the other half of the draw.

harpsman

munchkin_utd wrote: »

no it isnt, and it lets counties plan club fixtures properly.

Take the ulster teams in group 1.
If they get to the Ulster semi final then they play:

if they are in the qualifier they play a day earlier

So a county is 100% certain that their team will have a game on this weekend and can plan that in the fixture calendar from before christmas or whenever its done.

And the same is for the other half of the draw.

You obviously havent been following events in Donegal;).
But seriously,that bit looks like a good idea alright-imo club championship games should be played in the weeks in between.

Fr Tod Umptious

munchkin_utd wrote: »

no it isnt, and it lets counties plan club fixtures properly.

Take the ulster teams in group 1.
If they get to the Ulster semi final then they play:

if they are in the qualifier they play a day earlier

So a county is 100% certain that their team will have a game on this weekend and can plan that in the fixture calendar from before christmas or whenever its done.

And the same is for the other half of the draw.

I'm not arguing that it does not help clubs and counties to have a set fixture list, nor am I arguing that a 4 week break is better than a 3 week break and vise versa.

But they could be a bit more consistent in the gaps between championship rounds across the country
Kerry start the Munster championship on June 22nd and play the final 2 weeks later on July 6th, then have 4 weeks to the QF (assuming they win both games above)
Mayo start the Connaught championship on June 8th and play the final 5 weeks later on July 13th, then have 3 weeks to the QF (assuming they win both games above)

How difficult would it be to keep the same gaps between provincial quarters, semis, finals, and all Ireland quarters the same across the whole country?

munchkin_utd

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I'm not arguing that it does not help clubs and counties to have a set fixture list, nor am I arguing that a 4 week break is better than a 3 week break and vise versa.

But they could be a bit more consistent in the gaps between championship rounds across the country
Kerry start the Munster championship on June 22nd and play the final 2 weeks later on July 6th, then have 4 weeks to the QF (assuming they win both games above)
Mayo start the Connaught championship on June 8th and play the final 5 weeks later on July 13th, then have 3 weeks to the QF (assuming they win both games above)

How difficult would it be to keep the same gaps between provincial quarters, semis, finals, and all Ireland quarters the same across the whole country?

who is "they" ?

As far as I know the provences are independent in terms of what they schedule, so long as they keep inside the framework of the bigger master calendar.

And any time theres suggestion of central controlling of schedules, theres wobblers thrown.

iDave

Limerick V Tipp and Antrim V Fermanagh

Not a huge amount to get excited about. We definitely have to take a serious look as how we schedule the championship.

Gary Neville

No matter what way you look at it Dublin are looking very dominant in Football. They hold every top grade national title (League, Sam, U21 & Club) except minor Football (Mayo).

They have huge resources with massive commericial income and now seem organised at every level. Their victories in the knock-out stages of the league were intimidating.

It looks as if we now have teams at very different and distinct levels. That's always been the way but theres' been a big shift in make-up.

Dublin are at Level 1. (will need a major drop in performance to lose)

Mayo are at Level 2. (not good enough to beat Dublin but comfortably ahead of Level 3)

Cork, Kerry, Tyrone & Donegal are at Level 3. (all rebuilding or regrouping but not yet good enough to beat 1 & 2)

Kildare, Meath, Galway, Roscommon, Monaghan, Derry & Cavan are at Level 4. (could get a run going and get to a semi but that's it)

The rest are at Level 5 (no hopers)

Anyone disagree with this ?

keane2097

Gary Neville wrote: »

No matter what way you look at it Dublin are looking very dominant in Football. They hold every top grade national title (League, Sam, U21 & Club) except minor Football (Mayo).

They have huge resources with massive commericial income and now seem organised at every level. Their victories in the knock-out stages of the league were intimidating.

It looks as if we now have teams at very different and distinct levels. That's always been the way but theres' been a big shift in make-up.

Dublin are at Level 1. (will need a major drop in performance to lose)

Mayo are at Level 2. (not good enough to beat Dublin but comfortably ahead of Level 3)

Cork, Kerry, Tyrone & Donegal are at Level 3. (all rebuilding or regrouping but not yet good enough to beat 1 & 2)

Kildare, Meath, Galway, Roscommon, Monaghan, Derry & Cavan are at Level 4. (could get a run going and get to a semi but that's it)

The rest are at Level 5 (no hopers)

Anyone disagree with this ?

You're pretty much correct bar the obvious "upset-able" nature of such a short competition, bar the fact that I'd have the gap between level 2 & 3 a bit closer, and have Cork possibly at level 2 rather than 3.

Wouldn't see Mayo as much more than slight favourites over Cork in a knockout game, and could see the other three beating either of them. They'd be underdogs, but not massively so.

Tom Joad

Gary Neville wrote: »

No matter what way you look at it Dublin are looking very dominant in Football. They hold every top grade national title (League, Sam, U21 & Club) except minor Football (Mayo).

They have huge resources with massive commericial income and now seem organised at every level. Their victories in the knock-out stages of the league were intimidating.

It looks as if we now have teams at very different and distinct levels. That's always been the way but theres' been a big shift in make-up.

Dublin are at Level 1. (will need a major drop in performance to lose)

Mayo are at Level 2. (not good enough to beat Dublin but comfortably ahead of Level 3)

Cork, Kerry, Tyrone & Donegal are at Level 3. (all rebuilding or regrouping but not yet good enough to beat 1 & 2)

Kildare, Meath, Galway, Roscommon, Monaghan, Derry & Cavan are at Level 4. (could get a run going and get to a semi but that's it)

The rest are at Level 5 (no hopers)

Anyone disagree with this ?

For me I would have Mayo on the same level as Cork, Kerry, Tyrone & Donegal. I could be wrong but it it is hard to see Mayo being able to reach the standards of the last two years this year.

Of the level 4 teams, Monaghan have the best chance of going all the way IF (and it's a big IF) they can keep all their players fit for the championship (esp McManus and Hughes).

Other teams such as Armagh and Down could put a strong argument for being at level 4. Down could go on a serious run in the qualifiers and Armagh at home against Cavan in Ulster will fancy their chances. Level 4 is very fluid and can change from year to year.

iDave

The only crumb of comfort is Dublin did finish 4th in the regular season league. 3 years ago before the semis it would of been a Cork/Derry final and everyone would be saying Dublin have some catching up to do.
The new rules allowed a second bite at the cherry.
Cork outplayed them for much of the semi, perhaps in championship mode they wouldn't let it fall apart like that.

laoisman11

Gary Neville wrote: »

No matter what way you look at it Dublin are looking very dominant in Football. They hold every top grade national title (League, Sam, U21 & Club) except minor Football (Mayo).

They have huge resources with massive commericial income and now seem organised at every level. Their victories in the knock-out stages of the league were intimidating.

It looks as if we now have teams at very different and distinct levels. That's always been the way but theres' been a big shift in make-up.

Dublin are at Level 1. (will need a major drop in performance to lose)

Mayo are at Level 2. (not good enough to beat Dublin but comfortably ahead of Level 3)

Cork, Kerry, Tyrone & Donegal are at Level 3. (all rebuilding or regrouping but not yet good enough to beat 1 & 2)

Kildare, Meath, Galway, Roscommon, Monaghan, Derry & Cavan are at Level 4. (could get a run going and get to a semi but that's it)

The rest are at Level 5 (no hopers)

Anyone disagree with this ?

Your stratification probably fits in well with the current rankings http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057173179&page=6 in terms of winning the All-Ireland but that is not to say that a no-hoper couldn't beat a Level 3 or Level 4 team - Down almost proved this point recently. Also, I don't think that there is too much between Levels 2 and 3.

harpsman

Would pretty much agree thats a good summary but dont think Mayo are a "full" level above Cork and Kerry anyway. And agree Down probably level 4.

Gary Neville

keane2097 wrote: »

You're pretty much correct bar the obvious "upset-able" nature of such a short competition, bar the fact that I'd have the gap between level 2 & 3 a bit closer, and have Cork possibly at level 2 rather than 3.

Wouldn't see Mayo as much more than slight favourites over Cork in a knockout game, and could see the other three beating either of them. They'd be underdogs, but not massively so.

Yeah - You will get the odd shock along the way. As someone else pointed out, Down were within an O Hare close-in free of beating Tyrone.

Mayo are hard to judge, right now. Has the team peaked and is it now on a downward cycle ? Their key men are still relatively young and I'm discounting their league form somewhat as I think Horan has learned a lot and is aiming to peak in Sept.

I hope you are right about Cork but 4 outstanding footballers - 2 Cadogans, Aidan Walsh and Damien Cahalane are playing dual and this will severely limit their preparation for football. It's universally agreed that this cannot be done nowadays so expect the chickens back home to roost. Cork are planning ahead, intelligently, with 8 u21's in a development squad but most will need another year. The inane dual arrangement was foisted onto a new football management by a CB keen for vindication in the face of criticism for neglect of underage hurling and the fall-out of the strikes/disputes.

Kerry are Kerry and have been very close in recent years but can they deal with the loss of 3 iconic figures - Galvin, Tomas O Se and the greatest of the modern era - Gooch Cooper.

It's not happening for Tyrone and Donegal have restored their faith in the 'System' - Can McFadden rediscover his '12 form and can McBrearty fulfill his undoubted potential and off-set the loss of McHugh. Big ifs and must also avoid injury. Don't know.

Dublin U21's looked world beaters in the final but Cavan came within a kick of putting them out in the semi - that will give hope to others in the hunt for Sam.

keane2097

I must be the only person in the world who thinks the dual player thing is being overblown!

Fr Tod Umptious

harpsman wrote: »

Would pretty much agree thats a good summary but dont think Mayo are a "full" level above Cork and Kerry anyway. And agree Down probably level 4.

I don't believe that Cork are anywhere near as good as their league placing might suggest.
They have had a lot of changes so it will be interesting to see how they fare out in the championship.
It should be noted that they were well beaten in the league by the two teams that most people regard ad the top two teams, Dublin and Mayo.

Kerry on the other hand have questions all over the field.

Right now I'd fancy Mayo to be ahead of both of them.

ProudDUB

keane2097 wrote: »

You're pretty much correct bar the obvious "upset-able" nature of such a short competition, bar the fact that I'd have the gap between level 2 & 3 a bit closer, and have Cork possibly at level 2 rather than 3.

Wouldn't see Mayo as much more than slight favourites over Cork in a knockout game, and could see the other three beating either of them. They'd be underdogs, but not massively so.

I wouldn't put Cork at the same level as Mayo. Not yet anyway. Mayo have made it to the last two AI finals. Cork have not achieved much in the AI champo since they won it 2010. They had a great league, but they have lots of new players, an unresolved dual situation and a manager that is as yet untested at championship level. So I think I need to see how they go in the champo, before I'd rate them as high as the county who lost last years AI final by one point. Am not saying for sure, that they are definitely below them, just that they are too much of an unknown quantity. I deffo put them above a Gooch-less Kerry though.

I find it very, very hard to rank Donegal. If they can keep everyone fit, in form, & still willing to play to the system, they can go very, very far. Even all the way to winning Sam. (Yikes ! :eek: ) I just think that given the small size of their squad and their reliance on a few key players, the odds of them doing so are not great.

Gary Neville

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I don't believe that Cork are anywhere near as good as their league placing might suggest.
They have had a lot of changes so it will be interesting to see how they fare out in the championship.
It should be noted that they were well beaten in the league by the two teams that most people regard ad the top two teams, Dublin and Mayo.

Kerry on the other hand have questions all over the field.

Right now I'd fancy Mayo to be ahead of both of them.

I think that you are on the money there, Tod.

Cork have serious problems - Cork's keeper K O Halloran is poor at kick-outs (bad technique IMO) - dropped last year because of this and v poor in the league semi v Dublin. Cluxo, Morgan, Durcan etc are taking this skill to a new level.
Cork are weak at MF - AW is the only established MF'er and is erratic, has hamstring problems and is dual player. Cork are working on these problems but ...... A few issues in defence too - no establshed 6 and possibly at corner back. As you say, management is unproven and I almost forgot - the dual problem. Can't see Cork beat Mayo - this season.

Kerry did great home-work on Dubs last year - targetted Cluxton's kick-outs (successfully) Identified need for goals and got them but could not maintain defensive effort. Potentially strong MF but off-form there, so far. Can still field a good forward line but can't replace Gooch. Usually don't win in Cork but could beat Mayo and get to final. A few ifs and buts at the moment.

Donegal is the interesting one for me - Tomas O Se thinks that they are best equipped to limit Dublin and also thinks that J McG has the tactical nous. Curate's egg display v Derry but have the scope to improve.

Rossies or Galway will end Mayo's domination in Connaught but not until next season IMO.

Gary Neville

keane2097 wrote: »

I must be the only person in the world who thinks the dual player thing is being overblown!

You and Frank Murphy.

Seriously, though, hurling and football have become like chess - it's all tactics, possession, defensive and offensive plays, kick-out, puck-out strategy etc.

Stand still and you go backwards - It's extremely difficult to keep pace with one code but absolutely impossible to juggle two.

Then there's injuries - Eoin Cadogan has missed 2 months with a hamstring injury. A Walsh recently missed a club c.ship game with a hamstring injury. D Cahalane missed most of the league recovering from a double hip op (he's 22)
Alan Cadogan is still u21 and if Cork exit the Hurling, he'll probably come onto the football panel.

Last of the Mohicans/Last of the Dual Players - we'll not see their likes again etc etc

Fr Tod Umptious

Gary Neville wrote: »

I think that you are on the money there, Tod.

Cork have serious problems - Cork's keeper K O Halloran is poor at kick-outs (bad technique IMO) - dropped last year because of this and v poor in the league semi v Dublin. Cluxo, Morgan, Durcan etc are taking this skill to a new level.
Cork are weak at MF - AW is the only established MF'er and is erratic, has hamstring problems and is dual player. Cork are working on these problems but ...... A few issues in defence too - no establshed 6 and possibly at corner back. As you say, management is unproven and I almost forgot - the dual problem. Can't see Cork beat Mayo - this season.

Kerry did great home-work on Dubs last year - targetted Cluxton's kick-outs (successfully) Identified need for goals and got them but could not maintain defensive effort. Potentially strong MF but off-form there, so far. Can still field a good forward line but can't replace Gooch. Usually don't win in Cork but could beat Mayo and get to final. A few ifs and buts at the moment.

Donegal is the interesting one for me - Tomas O Se thinks that they are best equipped to limit Dublin and also thinks that J McG has the tactical nous. Curate's egg display v Derry but have the scope to improve.

Rossies or Galway will end Mayo's domination in Connaught but not until next season IMO.

True, Donegal are interesting.
The talk last week was of them being back to their 2012 style based on the win v Derry. It will be interesting to see if they can bring the same type of commitment as they did in 2012 and not just the system.
If they are to face Dublin it will be either a quarter-final as losers of the Ulster final and winners of a Rnd 4 qualifier , or in the SF as Ulster Champs and QF winners.

I'd image if Dublin are to be 'caught cold' in 2014 the day to do it may be the quarter final.

harpsman

Was listenin to Shane Curran on 2nd Captains last night-thought he was very good. He was fairly hard on James horan though-basically about what he claimed were tactical blunders in last 2 finals. Obviously Keane isolated on Murphy was one, presume he was talking about taking off Freeman, maybe also moving Higgins back when he was causing problems up front.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/second-captains

Fireball07

Kildare winning handily enough against Louth. Roscommon defending well against Mayo.

Fireball07

Roscommon scored huge amounts in the league... I know they're playing Mayo, but only 1 point after 30 mins is poor. But it's 0-3 to 0-2 now. Which I suppose is a result. But still expected more firepower from the Rossies.