Referee Mark Clattenburg investigated for abusive language

Duck Soup

Mark Clattenburg is reportedly being investigated by Mike Riley, head of the Professional Game Match Officials Ltd, after Southampton complained about the referee's use of "abusive and insulting" language against their captain Adam Lallana.

According to the Daily Mail, Clattenburg is understood to have insulted Lallana after the player complained over his decision not to award Southampton a penalty during their recent 2-1 loss at Everton. The south-coast club, report the Mail, have asked the Premier League not to appoint Clattenburg for any of their matches until PGMOL's investigation has been completed.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jan/03/mark-clattenburg-southampton-investigation

Maybe my Chelsea fan bias is showing, but I can't shake the feeling that this puts Mikel's complaint against Clattenburg in a different light. Clattenburg appears to have a bit of attitude and mouth on him.

GTR63

Duck Soup wrote: »

Clattenburg appears to have a bit of attitude and mouth on him.

A lot of the refs have big heads, bet a few of them were jealous when they seen Mark Halsey turn up on BT. Is he gone now btw? His input was always garbage anyway

ITT-Pat

I wish referees had more leeway in telling players to fcuk off more often

MagicIRL

ITT-Pat wrote: »

I wish referees had more leeway in telling players to fcuk off more often

I agree. The abuse they seem tog et from players is dire. Only right that they can tell them to shove it when they get out of line.

brevity

Have a microphone on the referee, like in rugby. Would sort all this nonsense out and it might stop people shouting all sorts of profanities at each other.

Reekwind

ITT-Pat wrote: »

I wish referees had more leeway in telling players to fcuk off more often

Disagree. If a ref has to resort to abuse then he lacks the authority needed to police the game. He's the man with the whistle and cards

The problem, as Clattenburg highlights, is that the referees are increasingly thinking of themselves as players, rather than, well, referees. Venting and hurling abuse is what a player does, not a professional referee.

GavRedKing

Refs dont need to take abuse, they can card players for it so by the same measures, the ref shouldnt be giving it back.

Card the player and get on with it. In the same game Southampton could have had at least 1 penalty and arguably another.

I always thought he was one of the better refs in the league though.

Agueroooo

am I correct in saying that this is not the first time (or even the second) that Clattenburg has been pulled up on similar?

OCT 2012 : accused of racially abusing Mikel ...cleared of all charges

DEC 2009: Bellamy claimed he slagged him off whilst being sent to the dressing room.

AUG 2008: Banned from being a PL ref due to 'inappropriate business dealing'....later reinstated on appeal.

and now alleged abusive of Southampton player.

controversy just seems to follow this fella.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/109...controversies/

GavRedKing

Agueroooo wrote: »

am I correct in saying that this is not the first time (or even the second) that Clattenburg has been pulled up on similar?

Second football related investigation, we had the Mikel incident last year on the back of Chelsea v Utd and his previous investigation was something to do with his old business and money owed I'm sure, it wasnt football related anyway.

Duck Soup

Agueroooo wrote: »

am I correct in saying that this is not the first time (or even the second) that Clattenburg has been pulled up on similar?

A list of the various Clattenburg controversies.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/10912646.Mark_Clattenburg___the_big_controversies/

Duck Soup

I suppose if we're talking about Clattenburg mouthing off either to or about players, this is accusation number three after the Mikel and Craig Bellamy incidents.

SickBoy

GavRedKing wrote: »

Refs dont need to take abuse, they can card players for it so by the same measures, the ref shouldnt be giving it back.

Card the player and get on with it. In the same game Southampton could have had at least 1 penalty and arguably another.

I always thought he was one of the better refs in the league though.

If I was a player giving a ref a piece of my mind because of a decision he failed to give in my favour I would rather he told me to fcuk off in no uncertain terms rather than book me.

Players reporting referees for abusive language....

GavRedKing

SickBoy wrote: »

If I was a player giving a ref a piece of my mind because of a decision he failed to give in my favour I would rather he told me to fcuk off in no uncertain terms rather than book me.

Players reporting referees for abusive language....

I'd like the ref to explain his decision but sometimes you get refs, and anyone who has played the game can stand by this, that just dont want to know and wont engage with you, that makes it so frustrating.

Hes still better than John Moss anyway.

Cienciano

ITT-Pat wrote: »

I wish referees had more leeway in telling players to fcuk off more often

It should be the other way around. Refs don't say anything like that to the players, but vice versa.
Any of those "respect" campaigns are just lip service.

Duck Soup

I notice from watching games on TV that pretty much all match officials these days - certainly the match ref and the referee's assistants (a.k.a. linesmen) - are miked up. The question is: are the 90 mins of inter-officials dialogues also recorded? I seem to remember that there was a suggestion that all such interactions should be recorded, ironically because of the Clattenburg-Mikel controversy.

cathalio11

I've always liked Mark Clattenburg as a referee.

He comes across strong-minded and generally fit.

I think he puts referees like John Moss and Phil Dowd (OF LAST YEAR) to shame. When you're paid up to 80k a year in a role of such importance, the least you can do is stay fit.

That being said, I think it's very wrong to publicly state to the media that a referee is over-weight. It should be settled behind closed doors.

GavRedKing

cathalio11 wrote: »

I've always liked Mark Clattenburg as a referee.

He comes across strong-minded and generally fit.

I think he puts referees like John Moss and Phil Dowd (OF LAST YEAR) to shame. When you're paid up to 80k a year in a role of such importance, the least you can do is stay fit.

That being said, I think it's very wrong to publicly state to the media that a referee is over-weight. It should be settled behind closed doors.

In the case of Moss and Dowd its clear to see though but they do have fitness tests and if they're passing them then their images and appearance of being over weight means nothing really.

cathalio11

GavRedKing wrote: »

In the case of Moss and Dowd its clear to see though but they do have fitness tests and if they're passing them then their images and appearance of being over weight means nothing really.

I can't argue with that. I am sure they have fitness tests and I'm sure that they pass them.

But I remember a referee called Alan Wiley who was noticeably pausing for deep breaths. He obviously would have passed his fitness tests but he struggled to keep up at times. He retired soon after.

So while I'm sure, as you say, that they have kept up to regulation; I think that a few referees can take an example from Phil Dowd who lost any trace of a belly over the Summer and I'm sure that just makes him a more competent referee.

So we can conclude that if every referee stepped up their effort like Phil Dowd did, there would be an improvement and even if it's a slight improvement, it still helps.

Ste-

Duck Soup wrote: »

I notice from watching games on TV that pretty much all match officials these days - certainly the match ref and the referee's assistants (a.k.a. linesmen) - are miked up. The question is: are the 90 mins of inter-officials dialogues also recorded? I seem to remember that there was a suggestion that all such interactions should be recorded, ironically because of the Clattenburg-Mikel controversy.

Did I read somewhere that their lines of communication are between themselves and not anywhere else. I.e. Linesman and ref can hear/speak to each other but noone else can hear it.

cathalio11

Ste- wrote: »

Did I read somewhere that their lines of communication are between themselves and not anywhere else. I.e. Linesman and ref can hear/speak to each other but noone else can hear it.

Yeah, I say it's just your basic walkie-talkie system.

Duck Soup

Ste- wrote: »

Did I read somewhere that their lines of communication are between themselves and not anywhere else. i.e. Linesman and ref can hear/speak to each other but no-one else can hear it.

I suspect that there may have been a counter-argument by referees that recording everything would impinge on the ability of match officials to speak freely and candidly with each other during the game.

Maybe, but if the conversations go unrecorded, then accusations such as this one can never be definitively disproven. This is going to follow Clattenburg around like a bad smell for at least the rest of the season.

J. Marston

@BenSmithBBC
Understand Clattenburg said to Lallana "you’re very different now you have played for England, you never used to be like this."

Lallana is one soft lad if he reported that.

everdead.ie

Telegraph are reporting the personal insult was

You’re very different now since you played for England. You never used to be like this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/southampton/10548814/Mark-Clattenburg-has-no-case-to-answer-in-Adam-Lallana-row-as-Professional-Game-Match-Officials-back-referee.html

Thats very tame no? Seriously if I was being reported for something like that I'd be furious.

Agueroooo

I'm afraid Mr Clattenburg is passing the duck test this time

CSF

If he said that, and Lallana is complaining he can f*ck off. Clattenburg is an easy target for these kind of accusations now.

razorblunt

Linking the tv cameras to the ref microphones would take care of a lot of issues in one go. Alot of the refs try to be best buddies with the playes, especially the guys who are 4th official for a certain game, rather than keeping their professional distance. It's actually something I don't like to see either. I remember the rugby ref JP Doyle telling players to chillax once and he was hammered by the ESPN commentators for it, additionally Steve Walsh told the English captain "he was making some good steals on the floor", commentators again questioned why he said that when no interaction was required.

Yes, you'll catch the heat of the moment stuff i.e. Jerry Flannery calling Steve Thompson a cnut but it immediately helps in cases like this.

By the way I'm not trying to turn this into a rugby v football debate it's just the most obvious known comparison we have.

Reekwind

everdead.ie wrote: »

Thats very tame no? Seriously if I was being reported for something like that I'd be furious.

Not really. Who the hell is Clattenburg to pass comment like this during a game? He's not a team-mate, colleague, fellow footballer, friend or even a journalist. Referees should not be making personal remarks like that.

This is another sign that Clattenburg sees himself as somehow being a footballer's peer

clubberlang12

Would be very interesting to hear what Lallana had to say to Clattenburg and in what manner. Incident happened after the game in the tunnel so if a ref is approached like that at the end of a game i have no issue with his response.

LiamoSail

Reekwind wrote: »

Not really. Who the hell is Clattenburg to pass comment like this during a game? He's not a team-mate, colleague, fellow footballer, friend or even a journalist. Referees should not be making personal remarks like that.

This is another sign that Clattenburg sees himself as somehow being a footballer's peer

I agree to an extent, but assuming the insult was as above, to report someone to a professional body on the basis of that comment is pretty pathetic.

GavRedKing

That does seem a little soft if its true although it could be multiple factors, including Clattenburgs performance in said game.

cathalio11

razorblunt wrote: »

Linking the tv cameras to the ref microphones would take care of a lot of issues in one go. Alot of the refs try to be best buddies with the playes, especially the guys who are 4th official for a certain game, rather than keeping their professional distance.

I think a chap in this thread had a very good counter-argument for this. It would affect the way in which referees will communicate with each other now that they know they are being listened to, and this could harm their performance.

As for the alleged insult, how soft can you get?

Duck Soup

There's also the possibility that the expression of Clattenburg's opinion on Lallana has been sanitised and tidied up somewhat so the meaning of the sentence is still there, minus some choice Anglo-Saxonisms. Some of the newspapers are suggesting that Clattenburg's use of colourful language is well-known within the game.

bluefinger

refs should be given one opportunity each season to clatter a player, the amount of guff they have to put up with is shocking.

Timmyctc

Bbc sport are reporting that Lallana was inconsolable after the incident and that despite the best efforts of manager Mauricio Pocetino they couldn't get the England international to unlock his bedroom door and stop crying into his pillow.

cathalio11

Timmyctc wrote: »

Bbc sport are reporting that Lallana was inconsolable after the incident and that despite the best efforts of manager Mauricio Pocetino they couldn't get the England international to unlock his bedroom door and stop crying into his pillow.

Well this puts a completely different spin on the situation.

Mars Bar

bluefinger wrote: »

refs should be given one opportunity each season to clatter a player, the amount of guff they have to put up with is shocking.

I see what you did there.

UnitedIrishman

Talk about Lallana being precious. I could maybe understand if he just walked up out of the blue and said it to him, but it was most likely after a barrage of abuse from Lallana or teammates.

happydayz182

The abuse that Clatternburg gets then !

Maybe Lallana has changed if hes reporting rubbish like this.....

Dempsey

Should mic up the referee's and their assistants, that would shut the players up fairly quick!

intellectual dosser

Clattenburg - Referee, Leader, Legend.

Joking aside I'd think that given that they come into contact so often referees and players develop a 'relationship' and a lot of the stuff said between them would be fairly informal. I'd love to get the full context and know what Lallalla was saying to Clattenburg.

GavRedKing

They should just have a system to record the conversation between all officials throughout the game.

The recordings should only be available to the FA and only reviewed when such incidents spring up.

We're all grown ups here and if the ref wants to be informal with the players or his assistants so be it, if the mic picks up a players abuse of the ref any action he takes can be accounted for and it will stop players crying about incidents and may stop them giving abuse to the officials if it could result in cards by the ref or action on review by the FA.

This way the mic wont be open and available for T.V. and 8 year old Little Johnny wont hear his hero call everyone in ear shot a c**t and cause more uproar on live T.V.

Rascasse

For those having a go at Lallana - it appears he is not behind the complaint. It does sound like the kind of pettiness that Cortese is known for.

BBC Solent Sport wrote:

For clarity, the complaint from #saintsfc re Mark Clattenburg has come from the club & has not been initiated or driven by Adam Lallana

twitter.com/bigadamsport/status/419136315477983232

bucketybuck

Reekwind wrote: »

Not really. Who the hell is Clattenburg to pass comment like this during a game? He's not a team-mate, colleague, fellow footballer, friend or even a journalist. Referees should not be making personal remarks like that.

Well you say that, but time and again we hear the complaint that referees are too stand-offish, that the best ref's are the ones that communicate and talk to the players.

I know I always preferred the ref's that actually spoke to me and acknowledged my existence, as opposed to the ones that just ignored you if you tried to ask them why something happened.

This is a non-complaint, and everybody involved should be embarrassed that it was even made.

keith16

Rascasse wrote: »

For those having a go at Lallana - it appears he is not behind the complaint. It does sound like the kind of pettiness that Cortese is known for.


twitter.com/bigadamsport/status/419136315477983232

That's fair enough but Cortese should have a look at the footage. Lallana just wouldn't give it a rest about the incident and was in Clattenburgs face any chance he got.

rob316

According to Ben Smith, this is what was said .....Clattenburg said to Lallana "you’re very different now you have played for England, you never used to be like this."

FFS whats wrong with that?

keeponhurling

Rascasse wrote: »

For those having a go at Lallana - it appears he is not behind the complaint. It does sound like the kind of pettiness that Cortese is known for.


twitter.com/bigadamsport/status/419136315477983232

who is Adam Blackmore ?

P_1

brevity wrote: »

Have a microphone on the referee, like in rugby. Would sort all this nonsense out and it might stop people shouting all sorts of profanities at each other.

I always thought that all the profanities being shouted were the main reason not to have referees miked up?

keeponhurling

It's wrong for the referee to give any abuse to a player, just as it's wrong for a player to abuse a referee.

Refs have the power to do something about it though, issue either a red or yellow card. If they take abuse and still refuse to use these powers (and do their job) then it's their own making. No sympathy for them.

There's nothing players can do about abuse from refs, except make a complaint through official channels.

CSF

keeponhurling wrote: »

It's wrong for the referee to give any abuse to a player, just as it's wrong for a player to abuse a referee.

Refs have the power to do something about it though, issue either a red or yellow card. If they take abuse and still refuse to use these powers (and do their job) then it's their own making. No sympathy for them.

There's nothing players can do about abuse from refs, except make a complaint through official channels.

Watch what happens ref who throw yellow cards out everywhere. Refs are under strict guidelines on how to ref a match and can get used to lower league football if they're not happy to tow the line.

Dempsey

You're very different now you've played for England. You never used to be like this."

Thats what this is over?! :eek:

Queue more conspiracy theories from Southampton that referees are out to get them!

keeponhurling

CSF wrote: »

Watch what happens ref who throw yellow cards out everywhere. Refs are under strict guidelines on how to ref a match and can get used to lower league football if they're not happy to tow the line.

Do you really think refs are told "If a player gives you abuse you must take it - do NOT give them a booking or send them off" ?

Although I do admit that at times it might appear that way