To keep her or not ?

madred006

Hi all in a little bit of a predicament , my wife got me a fab bernese mountain dog bitch as a Xmas box and was a huge surprise . I noticed her eyes were sore and washed them daily for 1 week but no improvement . So I took her to vet to be told she has entropia and also a hernia on her naval both hereditary . We have her nearly two weeks and she is fab . But I would be unable to breed from her with my male bernese . So should I keep her or return her to breeder , as there will be considerable cost involved for her treatment . Just interested to see what people think cheers .

Millem

That is terrible! Eye problems can be very expensive to treat. (Like thousands) I don't have any experience with cherry eye but it is quite painful if my memory serves me correct. To be honest I would be worried about what other health problems will surface eg hips. If you do keep her tell the breeder as her parents shouldn't be bred from again. I presume her pet insurance won't cover it? The hernia is like a bubble on her belly? One of my dogs had that and vet fixed it when we got her spayed but didn't charge extra (she is a rescue so maybe that's why?). The breeder is obviously not very responsible

madred006

Millem wrote: »

That is terrible! Eye problems can be very expensive to treat. (Like thousands) I don't have any experience with cherry eye but it is quite painful if my memory serves me correct. To be honest I would be worried about what other health problems will surface eg hips. If you do keep her tell the breeder as her parents shouldn't be bred from again. I presume her pet insurance won't cover it? The hernia is like a bubble on her belly? One of my dogs had that and vet fixed it when we got her spayed but didn't charge extra (she is a rescue so maybe that's why?). The breeder is obviously not very responsible

Cheers yes I'm worried about future health problems aswell hate to think what might pop up .Yes the hernia is like a golf ball on her belly and also afraid of the effects of anesthesia on a big dog if she still needed surgery in years time .

jimf

im afraid I would not be able to advise you it is really something you have to decide

the problem is even after 2 weeks you have bonded with her and she with you this im afraid is a tear jerker

I also have seen your other posts on a different thread

kylith

I'm sorry to hear about your pup. Hopefully you can get in touch with the breeder and talk to them but, frankly, if your wife got a sick pup from someone who was happy to sell a dog as a Christmas surprise I wouldn't hold out for them to be a responsible breeder. TBH, I'd be worried that the breeder would either sell her on or use her to breed. My advice would be to contact the breeder, hopefully your wife has a contract with them, and to at least neuter the pup before rehoming.

If it were me I'd see myself as having a duty of care to the dog, do whatever can be done with her ailments, and enjoy her as a pet.

madred006

kylith wrote: »

I'm sorry to hear about your pup. Hopefully you can get in touch with the breeder and talk to them but, frankly, if your wife got a sick pup from someone who was happy to sell a dog as a Christmas surprise I wouldn't hold out for them to be a responsible breeder. TBH, I'd be worried that the breeder would either sell her on or use her to breed. My advice would be to contact the breeder, hopefully your wife has a contract with them, and to at least neuter the pup before rehoming.

If it were me I'd see myself as having a duty of care to the dog, do whatever can be done with her ailments, and enjoy her as a pet.

Cheers for that will make decision tonight

Knine

Ask the breeder to cover the costs of the medical treatment & keep her as a pet. I know of dogs who had the eye op done & also hernias & they turned out to be fantastic pets.

There is never any guarantee of a puppy being suitable for breeding when they are adults. Their mouth could go wrong when the teeth change, males may not be entire etc. They may develop a serious fault. The costs of health testing for both dog & bitch are also very expensive.

I have a bitch here I just got spayed as she is simply not good enough to breed.

Good luck with your decision.

Millem

madred006 wrote: »

Cheers yes I'm worried about future health problems aswell hate to think what might pop up .Yes the hernia is like a golf ball on her belly and also afraid of the effects of anesthesia on a big dog if she still needed surgery in years time .

The "golf ball" got bigger on my dog and we got her spayed as 5 months as we vet thought she could go into heat early. Seriously thought the eye thing will be thousands! I remember a dog in rescue having it a few years ago.

Allknowing

Why do you want to breed in the first place?

I doubt you will get your money back. There are alot of irresponsible breeders out there. Breeding for a quick buck.

Knine

The eye procedure will certainly not be thousands. How many dogs do you know who have had this done?

jimf

Knine wrote: »

The eye procedure will certainly not be thousands. How many dogs do you know who have had this done?

I neighbour of mine had his boxer done about 2 years ago im pretty sure it was approx. 400/500 euro for both eyes

Knine

jimf wrote: »

I neighbour of mine had his boxer done about 2 years ago im pretty sure it was approx. 400/500 euro for both eyes

I seen it done on a Spinone for a lot less. My mothers Cocker Spaniel had a more serious eye op with an eye specialist last year & it cost €500 euro including several return visits

Millem

Well one of my dogs goes to an eye vet (of which there are only a handful of in the country). The first consultation is €100 alone and your normal vet must refer you. My dog didn't have cherry eye but I can tell you the pre tests alone for suitability were a few hundred. (I don't know if your dog would need these). Plus aftercare appointments which are done at one week, then two weeks then one month etc. Medication and anaesthetic is also given by weight which could affect the cost? But maybe your normal vet does eye operations? And maybe it's cheaper if you don't have pet insurance? We had to get the two eyes done over two policy years as we had reached our limit!

Knine

Millem wrote: »

Well one of my dogs goes to an eye vet (of which there are only a handful of in the country). The first consultation is €100 alone and your normal vet must refer you. My dog didn't have cherry eye but I can tell you the pre tests alone for suitability were a few hundred. (I don't know if your dog would need these). Plus aftercare appointments which are done at one week, then two weeks then one month etc. Medication and anaesthetic is also given by weight which could affect the cost? But maybe your normal vet does eye operations? And maybe it's cheaper if you don't have pet insurance?

The dog does not have Cherry Eye though. Entropian was mentioned or have I missed it in another thread? The operation for entropian is straight forward & a regular vet can sort it.

I've been to an eye specialist as mentioned above.

The OP needs to ask the breeder to cover costs

meoklmrk91

Millem wrote: »

Well one of my dogs goes to an eye vet (of which there are only a handful of in the country). The first consultation is €100 alone and your normal vet must refer you. My dog didn't have cherry eye but I can tell you the pre tests alone for suitability were a few hundred. (I don't know if your dog would need these). Plus aftercare appointments which are done at one week, then two weeks then one month etc. Medication and anaesthetic is also given by weight which could affect the cost? But maybe your normal vet does eye operations? And maybe it's cheaper if you don't have pet insurance?

Hey Millem,

Your right eye issues can be very expensive. Cherry eye or prolapsed third eye lid is different to entropian though which is where the eye lid turns inwards causing the hairs on the surface to rub against the eyeball.

My own dog has a mild case of entropian and we have managed to avoid surgery and just use eye drops. This has worked well for us although surgery may definitely be a possibility down the line. Most vets will do surgery for the more common eye issues like entropian and cherry eye, there really is no need for them to go to an eye specialist unless it is a less common ailment which should keep the costs down.

OP whether or not you keep this dog is a difficult decision for anyone to make, I'm sure that you have indeed with her already, but if you are interested in breeding then you really should only be breeding from the very best stock and really be taking your time to choose and get advice from the best breeders in the country. This poor little pup is unhealthy, considering the pup was sold to your wife as a Christmas surprise, as other have said, I wouldn't be surprised if said breeder does not want to tak your calls and has no interest in takin the pup back. I don't envy your position though as I know if it were me I would feel that I had a duty of care to the pup.

Millem

Knine wrote: »

The dog does not have Cherry Eye though. Entropian was mentioned or have I missed it in another thread? The operation for entropian is straight forward & a regular vet can sort it.

I've been to an eye specialist as mentioned above.

The OP needs to ask the breeder to cover costs

Sorry I thought I saw cherry eye somewhere must be my pregnancy brain! We'll sure if a normal vet can do the job go for it! I agree breeder should cover the costs. OP did you get the pup in south dublin by any chance?

tk123

Is there hip scores/health certs for the parents? That would be a deal breaker for me. You need to take a step back and ask if you can cover the costs of any other issues that might crop up now - assuming you're not eligible to insure her? Worrying about what will happen to her as callous as this will sound isn't your problem and is what keeps back yard breeders in business.

madred006

Allknowing wrote: »

Why do you want to breed in the first place?

I doubt you will get your money back. There are alot of irresponsible breeders out there. Breeding for a quick buck.

Iv spoken to the breeder and he will take pup back or give me part refund . I'd like to breed the bernese because I have a fabulous dog that is great example of the breed and I very much like to keep the line .

madred006

Millem wrote: »

Well one of my dogs goes to an eye vet (of which there are only a handful of in the country). The first consultation is €100 alone and your normal vet must refer you. My dog didn't have cherry eye but I can tell you the pre tests alone for suitability were a few hundred. (I don't know if your dog would need these). Plus aftercare appointments which are done at one week, then two weeks then one month etc. Medication and anaesthetic is also given by weight which could affect the cost? But maybe your normal vet does eye operations? And maybe it's cheaper if you don't have pet insurance? We had to get the two eyes done over two policy years as we had reached our limit!

Well I don't have insurance as I was in process of sorting it out . My vet tells me that the op which involves pulling the eyelids out and back with clips may have to be done at least 3 times because of the growth rate involved . But I have since been informed that an eye specialist in Limerick would do it in one procedure . So it's an option to explore .

madred006

Millem wrote: »

Sorry I thought I saw cherry eye somewhere must be my pregnancy brain! We'll sure if a normal vet can do the job go for it! I agree breeder should cover the costs. OP did you get the pup in south dublin by any chance?

No not South Dublin .

Millem

madred006 wrote: »

No not South Dublin .

Cool just wondering I met a breeder just before Christmas in my vets getting the Bernese pups vaccinated and was hoping it wasn't them !

Millem

madred006 wrote: »

Well I don't have insurance as I was in process of sorting it out . My vet tells me that the op which involves pulling the eyelids out and back with clips may have to be done at least 3 times because of the growth rate involved . But I have since been informed that an eye specialist in Limerick would do it in one procedure . So it's an option to explore .

O no 3 operations would be a pain! Each time I presume you have to put in drops and dog has a cone. I always got operations done when I am on holidays from work because she hates the cone and the other dogs hate her having the cone! But you can get inflatable ones now it's looking like my girl will probably need to get 1 if not both eyes removed god love her but will just get normal vet to that, the eye vet would probably be more expensive.

falabo

madred006 wrote: »

my wife got me a fab bernese mountain dog bitch as a Xmas box and was a huge surprise .

First it was as huge surprise then it was highly irresponsible of your wife to get you a puupy for Xmas without having discussed this in depth and taking everything into account.

A dog is for life, not just for Xmas, you now have a duty of responsibility until the end of her life. She may not be the perfect puppy of your dreams but she could make a perfect pet.

Tramps Like Us

If you haven't bonded bring it back to the breeder

madred006

falabo wrote: »

First it was as huge surprise then it was highly irresponsible of your wife to get you a puupy for Xmas without having discussed this in depth and taking everything into account.

A dog is for life, not just for Xmas, you now have a duty of responsibility until the end of her life. She may not be the perfect puppy of your dreams but she could make a perfect pet.

Well hindsight is a great thing . I had been saying I was getting a pup beforehand ,and wouldn't say it was irresponsible at all .Im well aware of the responsibilities last year I lost a Newfoundland after paying out almost 2 k on vet fees in a week she had rapid leukemia . I'm afraid that the problems she has might manifest into something more serious that's all .

mymo

The decision is yours, but just a suggestion re the idea of keeping your males line going.
Have you thought of staying in contact with his breeder and when the time comes getting another pup from his lines through the breeder? I'm sure if the lines are good they will still be breeding from pups or grandpups in a few years.
It's what I would do, no guarantee any two dogs will turn out the same, I know of people that have bred a bitch with that idea and the offspring were totally different, it's usually the personality that does it for us.

jimf

mymo wrote: »

The decision is yours, but just a suggestion re the idea of keeping your males line going.
Have you thought of staying in contact with his breeder and when the time comes getting another pup from his lines through the breeder? I'm sure if the lines are good they will still be breeding from pups or grandpups in a few years.
It's what I would do, no guarantee any two dogs will turn out the same, I know of people that have bred a bitch with that idea and the offspring were totally different, it's usually the personality that does it for us.

im like yourself mymo I will have to like the pups as well regardless of their pedigree I suppose I purchase with my eyes after all the other checks I feel necessary

The Sweeper

madred006 wrote: »

Hi all in a little bit of a predicament , my wife got me a fab bernese mountain dog bitch as a Xmas box and was a huge surprise . I noticed her eyes were sore and washed them daily for 1 week but no improvement . So I took her to vet to be told she has entropia and also a hernia on her naval both hereditary . We have her nearly two weeks and she is fab . But I would be unable to breed from her with my male bernese . So should I keep her or return her to breeder , as there will be considerable cost involved for her treatment . Just interested to see what people think cheers .

It's good that you see you can't breed this bitch, because you'd just get more pups with entropion and hernias and possibly other health issues.

In terms of what to do - I'd give her back to her breeder, but that's because I would be able to make my peace with doing that. I firmly believe that until we stop rewarding backyard, shonky breeders with hundreds of euros for unhealthy, unsound puppies, they have no motivation to stop doing what they do.

Responsible breeding is not profitable, but irresponsible breeding is extremely profitable - because irresponsible breeders don't spend the money on health checks, or vet treatment, or screening. They cream off hundreds of euro per pup. They might not even buy a worm tablet or a vaccination - so all of their costs are just food. Why would they stop doing that? Even if they offer a part refund on a shonky pup, as your breeder has offered you, they're still ahead of the game. Another litter next heat it is!

If you were to give the pup back and demand a refund - if EVERY owner of these unsound puppies were to give back the pups and demand a refund - the owner of the breeding bitch would suddenly have a whole bunch of growing mouths to feed, and dogs that became more unhealthy as the weeks passed. They'd probably destroy the entire litter, but I'm not sure they'd be as gung-ho about breeding another one.

Saying that, the heart-hardening involved in promoting that approach, carrying out that activity and returning the pup isn't for everyone.

Please don't take a part refund from the breeder. Either demand they cover the full vet fees to correct both the entropion and the hernia, or if you can bring yourself to do it, return the pup.

If you can't return the pup, then every time someone sees her while she's out and comments on her, tell them she's cost you thousands because you got her from a crap breeder, and you'd never make that mistake again. Tell them about the entropion and the hernia and any other illnesses she has that will appear as she grows. Bore them to tears with your mistake.

All puppies are beautiful, but when you're considering your own puppy, please try to remember all puppies, current and future.

jimf

madred006 wrote: »

Well hindsight is a great thing . I had been saying I was getting a pup beforehand ,and wouldn't say it was irresponsible at all .Im well aware of the responsibilities last year I lost a Newfoundland after paying out almost 2 k on vet fees in a week she had rapid leukemia . I'm afraid that the problems she has might manifest into something more serious that's all .

well if you do decide to keep her the hernia can be done at the same time as spaying which I presume you will do as you wont be breeding from her

but its the other little problems that may or may not surface down the road that will be in the back of your mind but these can happen to any of us

mitosis

Return it. It was sold as goods and should be treated as such. It is unfit for purpose and you can insist on a refund.

Millem

mymo wrote: »

The decision is yours, but just a suggestion re the idea of keeping your males line going.
Have you thought of staying in contact with his breeder and when the time comes getting another pup from his lines through the breeder? I'm sure if the lines are good they will still be breeding from pups or grandpups in a few years.
It's what I would do, no guarantee any two dogs will turn out the same, I know of people that have bred a bitch with that idea and the offspring were totally different, it's usually the personality that does it for us.

I wouldn't buy from this breeder again purely based on the fact that he is only offering part discount! You should get a full refund. I am sure you could go down the small claims court route if you wanted. I presume the hernia alone rules out breeding the parents again never mind the eyes. I don't know anything about ikc rules or regulations on breeding and health all my dogs are rescues. And also how come the breeder didn't spot hernia or eye problem? My vet spotted the hernia straight away on my rescue pup when she got her 2nd vaccinations.