To keep her or not ?

The Sweeper

Millem wrote: »

I wouldn't buy from this breeder again purely based on the fact that he is only offering part discount!

I think Mymo's talking about the breeder of the OP's existing male Bernese.

Dubl07

The Sweeper wrote: »

It's good that you see you can't breed this bitch, because you'd just get more pups with entropion and hernias and possibly other health issues.

In terms of what to do - I'd give her back to her breeder, but that's because I would be able to make my peace with doing that. I firmly believe that until we stop rewarding backyard, shonky breeders with hundreds of euros for unhealthy, unsound puppies, they have no motivation to stop doing what they do.

Responsible breeding is not profitable, but irresponsible breeding is extremely profitable - because irresponsible breeders don't spend the money on health checks, or vet treatment, or screening. They cream off hundreds of euro per pup. They might not even buy a worm tablet or a vaccination - so all of their costs are just food. Why would they stop doing that? Even if they offer a part refund on a shonky pup, as your breeder has offered you, they're still ahead of the game. Another litter next heat it is!

If you were to give the pup back and demand a refund - if EVERY owner of these unsound puppies were to give back the pups and demand a refund - the owner of the breeding bitch would suddenly have a whole bunch of growing mouths to feed, and dogs that became more unhealthy as the weeks passed. They'd probably destroy the entire litter, but I'm not sure they'd be as gung-ho about breeding another one.

Saying that, the heart-hardening involved in promoting that approach, carrying out that activity and returning the pup isn't for everyone.

Please don't take a part refund from the breeder. Either demand they cover the full vet fees to correct both the entropion and the hernia, or if you can bring yourself to do it, return the pup.

If you can't return the pup, then every time someone sees her while she's out and comments on her, tell them she's cost you thousands because you got her from a crap breeder, and you'd never make that mistake again. Tell them about the entropion and the hernia and any other illnesses she has that will appear as she grows. Bore them to tears with your mistake.

All puppies are beautiful, but when you're considering your own puppy, please try to remember all puppies, current and future.

Return the pup, demand a full refund and then name and shame. Ireland is rife with puppy-farmers who have little regard for the dogs and depend on our soft hearts to make them money. Decent, trustworthy breeders may have a waiting-list but that's the only way to go.

If you're asking these questions of strangers on the internet you might also ask yourself if you are experienced or informed enough to breed animals. I'm pretty sure the owner of your male dog is continuing the bloodline. You don't have a huge responsibility to do so, in fact you might be better having him fixed unless you and your wife are prepared to put a hell of a lot more effort into providing him with a partner.

Millem

The Sweeper wrote: »

I think Mymo's talking about the breeder of the OP's existing male Bernese.

Sorry pregnancy brain strikes again
OP the other thing to take into consideration is do you actually want three dogs? Your male, this one and then a new female pup if you intend to breed. Pups can be hard work so you will have to go through puppyhood again plus the costs of having 3 large dogs is significant.

madred006

How can I say no

madred006

Millem wrote: »

Sorry pregnancy brain strikes again
OP the other thing to take into consideration is do you actually want three dogs? Your male, this one and then a new female pup if you intend to breed. Pups can be hard work so you will have to go through puppyhood again plus the costs of having 3 large dogs is significant.

Have 3 as it is :-( if I keep pup lol .

jimf

madred006 wrote: »

How can I say no

me thinks shes going nowhere in a hurry :D

sounds like you have your mind made up already

madred006

jimf wrote: »

me thinks shes going nowhere in a hurry :D

sounds like you have your mind made up already

Yes mind made up going to keep her and care for her it's not her fault and she will provide us with great happiness , plus wouldn't be great to return a Christmas pressie from wifey lol .

jimf

madred006 wrote: »

Yes mind made up going to keep her and care for her it's not her fault and she will provide us with great happiness , plus wouldn't be great to return a Christmas pressie from wifey lol .

I think this is going to one of the most thanked posts we have seen for a while
purely on compassionate grounds you are a 1 in a million person and will have your rewards im sure

Millem

madred006 wrote: »

How can I say no

O stop too cute! I have 3 dogs too but 3 would be my limit. Don't think I could manage 4! Would need a new car to fit them all in! Maybe you could just put your male out for stud if you still want to breed?

charlietheminxx

Keeping the dog is the right thing to do. Hopefully people reading this will be a bit wiser about bad breeding practices, but I'm glad you have enough compassion not to send her back to a dodgy breeder which could put her in a position of being put down. She's a beautiful dog and hopefully makes a wonderful pet.

jimf

charlietheminxx wrote: »

Keeping the dog is the right thing to do. Hopefully people reading this will be a bit wiser about bad breeding practices, but I'm glad you have enough compassion not to send her back to a dodgy breeder which could put her in a position of being put down. She's a beautiful dog and hopefully makes a wonderful pet.

well said

madred006

Millem wrote: »

O stop too cute! I have 3 dogs too but 3 would be my limit. Don't think I could manage 4! Would need a new car to fit them all in! Maybe you could just put your male out for stud if you still want to breed?

3 is my limit our lab is 15 and has been a great family dog grew up with 5 boys :-) and never ever snapped she is near the end of the road , my bernese is 16 months old a big slob of a dog who craves attention and now our pup who is just fab and that's my limit for now if I decide to breed in z few years well and good if not no harm done il keep pup and get her eyes done repair the hernia and have her spayed that will help her live a little longer too so happy days . Thanks to all who replied to this especially jim for your help cheers .

The Sweeper

Where's your compassion for the rest of the pups this breeder will produce? Or do you not need to be compassionate about those because sure, you don't see them, so they're not your problem? Or they don't exist?

I appreciate compassion for animals and I have more rescue pets myself than most people I know.

But focusing only on the one in front of you? That's no focus at all.

jimf

madred006 wrote: »

3 is my limit our lab is 15 and has been a great family dog grew up with 5 boys :-) and never ever snapped she is near the end of the road , my bernese is 16 months old a big slob of a dog who craves attention and now our pup who is just fab and that's my limit for now if I decide to breed in z few years well and good if not no harm done il keep pup and get her eyes done repair the hernia and have her spayed that will help her live a little longer too so happy days . Thanks to all who replied to this especially jim for your help cheers .

your welcome in case people are wondering this was a pm discussion

Millem

The Sweeper wrote: »

Where's your compassion for the rest of the pups this breeder will produce? Or do you not need to be compassionate about those because sure, you don't see them, so they're not your problem? Or they don't exist?

I appreciate compassion for animals and I have more rescue pets myself than most people I know.

But focusing only on the one in front of you? That's no focus at all.

I totally see where your coming from. At the end of the day there is nothing stopping the breeder breeding again in 6months time and lining their pockets. My friend bought a "designer breed" (aka a crossbreed) who she saw on done deal paid a good few hundred for it, brought him home and to vet, dog had fleas, worms and tail had been docked. Vaccination given were not the proper ones so she had to pay for new ones. Thank god the dog has no health problems but as I said to her the breeder made pure profit on that litter and is probably breeding every heat.

jimf

The Sweeper wrote: »

Where's your compassion for the rest of the pups this breeder will produce? Or do you not need to be compassionate about those because sure, you don't see them, so they're not your problem? Or they don't exist?

I appreciate compassion for animals and I have more rescue pets myself than most people I know.

But focusing only on the one in front of you? That's no focus at all.

oh my god is this really necessary if everybody showed even 1% of this posters compassion our animals would all be in a far better place

madred006

The Sweeper wrote: »

Where's your compassion for the rest of the pups this breeder will produce? Or do you not need to be compassionate about those because sure, you don't see them, so they're not your problem? Or they don't exist?

I appreciate compassion for animals and I have more rescue pets myself than most people I know.

But focusing only on the one in front of you? That's no focus at all.

Well firstly I can only deal with what I have infront of me the pup was IKC registered ( some will say that's nothing ) another days work , but I have contacted them and given details of breeds involved and I have issued a vet report also stating that the breeding is wrong .

sillysmiles

A question: was this pup registered? Have you reported the bad breeding to the IKC? Is there a breed association? Is there someone it should be reported to, to prevent this breeder from breeding again?

I have loved this breed since I lived in Switzerland but now don't think I would ever get one in Ireland. They got very popular very quickly.

The Sweeper

jimf wrote: »

oh my god is this really necessary if everybody showed even 1% of this posters compassion our animals would all be in a far better place

jimf, that's not how it works. I wish it was, but it's not.

It's Madred006's business what they do with their pup, and I can appreciate them keeping the pup because they're attached to it, but it's disingenuous to praise them for their compassion. It's short-sighted, and it disregards all of the other puppies that this breeder will churn out because buyers are rewarding them for their decisions.

It's the balance between making a difference to just one dog, and realising and accepting how many other dogs you condemn by your choices.

A Bernese mountain dog can have about 8 puppies in each litter, and a bitch will come in heat twice a year. If the breeder chooses to breed this bitch each heat cycle, that's 16 dogs a year they're producing. That's 16 dogs with health problems, entropion, hernias, possibly hip and elbow dysplasia. Certainly keeping the vets in business. Also occupying 16 households for up to 10 years who could have otherwise purchased a responsibly bred dog or taken in a rescue dog. Possibly even occupying households that could have taken another dog and had two, but now can't because they're bankrupt paying the vet fees on the dog they DO have and they can't afford a second dog.

It's simple economic supply and demand - if you don't pay the breeder, they have no reason to breed.

The OP's entire experience - from his missus buying a christmas pup with no research from a shonky breeder, to the OP's decision to keep the puppy instead of returning it and demanding a refund - the whole thing, end to end, is textbook for why backyard breeders breed for profit in the first place.

See it as that. Understand that. Accept that.

Keep the pup and pay for its health issues and adore it and give it a good life by all means. But see the wider picture of what you have contributed to, understand what you've enabled, and realise that your compassion for one puppy is just that - compassion for just one puppy.

madred006 wrote:

Well firstly I can only deal with what I have infront of me the pup was IKC registered ( some will say that's nothing ) another days work , but I have contacted them and given details of breeds involved and I have issued a vet report also stating that the breeding is wrong .

Fair play to you for that. I hope you persecute the breeder. I hope you make yourself such a giant pain in their arse over that one pup that you put them off dealing with people like you and put them off breeding. If you started a crowdsourcing account to take them to small claims court for the price of the hereditary condition vet bills for the life of the dog, I'd contribute to it. I'd hope I wouldn't be the only one.

madred006

sillysmiles wrote: »

A question: was this pup registered? Have you reported the bad breeding to the IKC? Is there a breed association? Is there someone it should be reported to, to prevent this breeder from breeding again?

I have loved this breed since I lived in Switzerland but now don't think I would ever get one in Ireland. They got very popular very quickly.

Yes she was IKC registered and as mentioned I have informed the IKC and also the bernese club of Ireland of breeds involved .

jimf

The Sweeper wrote: »

jimf, that's not how it works. I wish it was, but it's not.

It's Madred006's business what they do with their pup, and I can appreciate them keeping the pup because they're attached to it, but it's disingenuous to praise them for their compassion. It's short-sighted, and it disregards all of the other puppies that this breeder will churn out because buyers are rewarding them for their decisions.

It's the balance between making a difference to just one dog, and realising and accepting how many other dogs you condemn by your choices.

A Bernese mountain dog can have about 8 puppies in each litter, and a bitch will come in heat twice a year. If the breeder chooses to breed this bitch each heat cycle, that's 16 dogs a year they're producing. That's 16 dogs with health problems, entropion, hernias, possibly hip and elbow dysplasia. Certainly keeping the vets in business. Also occupying 16 households for up to 10 years who could have otherwise purchased a responsibly bred dog or taken in a rescue dog. Possibly even occupying households that could have taken another dog and had two, but now can't because they're bankrupt paying the vet fees on the dog they DO have and they can't afford a second dog.

It's simple economic supply and demand - if you don't pay the breeder, they have no reason to breed.

The OP's entire experience - from his missus buying a christmas pup with no research from a shonky breeder, to the OP's decision to keep the puppy instead of returning it and demanding a refund - the whole thing, end to end, is textbook for why backyard breeders breed for profit in the first place.

See it as that. Understand that. Accept that.

Keep the pup and pay for its health issues and adore it and give it a good life by all means. But see the wider picture of what you have contributed to, understand what you've enabled, and realise that your compassion for one puppy is just that - compassion for just one puppy.



Fair play to you for that. I hope you persecute the breeder. I hope you make yourself such a giant pain in their arse over that one pup that you put them off dealing with people like you and put them off breeding. If you started a crowdsourcing account to take them to small claims court for the price of the hereditary condition vet bills for the life of the dog, I'd contribute to it. I'd hope I wouldn't be the only one.

I cant and wont disagree with all you have to say but for the life of me I cant see what a 1 man crusade can do to solve any of the problems you have listed its huge and well we all know it

sillysmiles

Is there any point in seeking legal advice on this?
If you decide to keep the pup (as you have) what action can you take against the breeder to ensure that this breed isn't done again and what financial hit the breeder will suffer.

madred006

I hope that maybe this can be a lesson to all to do the right things in purchasing a pup , correct research in the breed they desire , use the proper channels and proven breeders . Donedeal and the likes are full of shoddy breeders out to make quick buck with little or no regard for their breeds , this must stop . Also the IKC must get off their arses and set in place a process that stops IKC papers been given out like confetti . Perhaps 1 main vet practice in each county to endorse examin and then grant papers if all is above board .

Millem

I wonder if there are any breeders (the ones that do all the health tests etc) on here and what they make of all this? Maybe they could advise of what usually would happen in this case?

Lemlin

madred006 wrote: »

Yes she was IKC registered and as mentioned I have informed the IKC and also the bernese club of Ireland of breeds involved .

What action has either said they will take with the information you gave?

I have to commend you for keeping the pup. You could have a long hard road ahead of you, both emotionally and financially.

madred006

Lemlin wrote: »

What action has either said they will take with the information you gave?

I have to commend you for keeping the pup. You could have a long hard road ahead of you, both emotionally and financially.

Well the reaction from bernese club was disgust and she assured me her members will be informed of breeds involved and thus spread the word to avoid such breeders , the IKC from what I gathered were nt too pushed but when I said I had vet report in post to them via reg letter changed her tune and said they would set in place a procedure to prevent breeds involved been registered . Whether this happens or not is anyone's guess but I shall be keeping a close eye on adds and such .

Lemlin

madred006 wrote: »

Well the reaction from bernese club was disgust and she assured me her members will be informed of breeds involved and thus spread the word to avoid such breeders , the IKC from what I gathered were nt too pushed but when I said I had vet report in post to them via reg letter changed her tune and said they would set in place a procedure to prevent breeds involved been registered . Whether this happens or not is anyone's guess but I shall be keeping a close eye on adds and such .

I think by breeds you mean the pedigree or lines involved.

Well that's good to hear at least and hopefully it will be followed through on by the IKC. I've never heard before of them taking a stance like that but it is what is needed.

Stop handing out the papers and the backyard breeders and puppy farmers won't be able to sell their puppies as easily.

The Sweeper

jimf wrote: »

I cant and wont disagree with all you have to say but for the life of me I cant see what a 1 man crusade can do to solve any of the problems you have listed its huge and well we all know it

How do you think any positive action starts?

I can tell you this - it's not with apathy and an assumption that action is pointless.

Just in the last few posts alone madred006 has exhibited he's taken steps to make the breeder's life difficult - that in itself could be the saving of a few litters.

Even if just two or three out of eight prospective owners return their pups, that's two or three rapidly growing dogs that the breeder now has to deal with. With big dogs like Bernese, that's a lot of mouths to feed. If two or three owners take the steps madred006 has taken, that's a lot of attention to bring onto one breeder. How many furious phone calls from new owners has one backyard breeder got the stomach to field? At what point will it all get too hard so they pack it in and decide never to bother again?

Who knows - but why don't we all just join in and test their tolerance?

sillysmiles

Is there anyway that the Ikc (or someone) could contact the owners of the other pups in the litter and see if all the pups suffer from ill health or was the OP very unlucky?
OP did your wife see the other pups when selecting this one?

I was just thinking that if all the new owbers are having problems and all collectively agreed to return the pups that would probably but the breeder out of business.

Rommie

OP are you still going to take half of the refunded price from the breeder? To be honest, if you're going to keep the pup, I would push for it. Might make the breeder realise that he can't get away with breeding from unhealthy lines too easily