Army chaplin criticises lack of mention of Christianity in President's Xmas speech

Cabaal

About 5min in a chap comes on with a conspiracy theory claiming that being catholic is in our DNA and how the Labour party want religion out of schools, the country etc and its against everyone's wishes.

http://podcast.rasset.ie/podcasts/audio/2014/0102/20140102_rteradio1-liveline-christmasa_c20498210_20498213_232_.mp3

A debate about President Higgins' Christmas message and whether we are in danger of losing the Christian message

Its scary that this guy actually believes what he is saying is factual :mad:

The podcast also includes numerous other religious people complaining that schools are going back on little Christmas (even when they are catholic ethos) and that they don't get other holy days off anymore.

robindch

Lordy, lordy, Joe really is worse than George Hook.

I want that four minutes back.

Beruthiel

robindch wrote: »

I want that four minutes back.

Thank you for saving me the trouble then. At my age, four minutes can't be wasted willy nilly.

Corkfeen

I'd be delighted if children spent more time in school, weird complaints from people. :O

Cabaal

Corkfeen wrote: »

I'd be delighted if children spent more time in school, weird complaints from people. :O

The first women complaining worked in a school so I'm guessing she'd be happier to have the extra time off.

The second...well the principal told her she's the only one to complain :pac:

Corkfeen

I'm now at the portion where a man is complaining that Eamonn Gilmore got holiday pay and took Christmas off. It's worth listening to,for any sadomasochists out there. I'm so grateful that my parents never got me to go to mass on the 6th of January.

Onward Christian soldiers!

Manach

Mr Eamon "Frankfurt's way or Labour's way" Gilmore? I'm not even sure that Labour themselves want to be associated with him.

PopePalpatine

That reminds me, a certain man is mewling in the Indo today about "DE LIBRUL AJINDA HAS TOO MUCH SWAY!"

Corkfeen

Manach wrote: »

Mr Eamon "Frankfurt's way or Labour's way" Gilmore? I'm not even sure that Labour themselves want to be associated with him.

Do you have a point to make ? :rolleyes:

old hippy

"Being catholic is in our DNA"

How does that work, then?

endacl

"I'm hoppin' mad, Joe!!"

old hippy

Nothing attract the cranks more than a live phone in show. Trust me on this. There was a certain show on a certain station that positively thrived on them. And when there were no takers on a slow night, one of the team would make a bogus call with something for all the knee jerks and lo! The switchboard would ignite...

joseph brand

old hippy wrote: »

Nothing attract the cranks more than a live phone in show. Trust me on this. There was a certain show on a certain station that positively thrived on them. And when there were no takers on a slow night, one of the team would make a bogus call with something for all the knee jerks and lo! The switchboard would ignite...

Chris Barry? I think he had paid trolls.

old hippy

joseph brand wrote: »

Chris Barry? I think he had paid trolls.

Oh, I couldn't possibly comment on any specific individuals.

robindch

endacl wrote: »

"I'm hoppin' mad, Joe!!"

The word "hoppin'" was superfluous in that.

Days 298

Sad people. Send them back to the 1950's.

Mad because "social engineering" is out of the churches hands and into the peoples hands.

Want to practice your faith go ahead. Just keep it out of face and my government. I dont care if I am in the minority (Atheist) I am a citizen too. My head of state shouldn't feel pressurized into mentioning or favoring a faith by OAPs with more time than sense and an agenda that has fought against ever single attempt to modernise the country and make it more welcoming and livable for all people.

Nodin

Cabaal wrote: »

About 5min in a chap comes on with a conspiracy theory claiming that being catholic is in our DNA and how the Labour party want religion out of schools, the country etc and its against everyone's wishes.

http://podcast.rasset.ie/podcasts/audio/2014/0102/20140102_rteradio1-liveline-christmasa_c20498210_20498213_232_.mp3

'Fuck the fuck off' would be my succinct opinion.

expectationlost

it was actually called his Christmas and New Year Message 2013 http://www.president.ie/uncategorized/christmas-and-new-year-message-2013/ transcript of speech

The message of Christmas, shared by many faiths, invites us to care for one another and to be – in an ethical sense – one another’s keeper.

how many faiths share the mesasge of christmas?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbC9j9cLbsU

the army chaplin in a homily criticised President Higgins for not mentioning christianity in his xmas speech, this was picked up by liveline and now he has had to apologise to the president http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/army-apologises-over-remarks-about-higgins-1.1644048

ya know I think he might had a point, why do a Christmas message and not mention christianity

robindch

Cabaal wrote: »

About 5min in a chap comes on with a conspiracy theory claiming that being catholic is in our DNA and how the Labour party want religion out of schools, the country etc and its against everyone's wishes.

Briefly back on topic, the Defence Forces Press Office has apologized on behalf of the priest who complained about the President's christmas message has apologized:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/army-apologises-over-remarks-about-higgins-1.1644048

Defence Forces Press Office wrote:

This homily should not be construed in any way as a criticism of the President or his Christmas message.

Bannasidhe

expectationlost wrote: »

it was actually called his Christmas and New Year Message 2013 http://www.president.ie/uncategorized/christmas-and-new-year-message-2013/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbC9j9cLbsU

the army chaplin in a homily criticised President Higgins for not mentioning christianity in his xmas speech, this was picked up by liveline and now he has had to apologise to president http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/army-apologises-over-remarks-about-higgins-1.1644048

ya know I think he might had a point, why do a Christmas message and not mention christianity

I seem to recall that darling of the RCC Mary McAl failed to mention Christianity in at least one, if not two of her Xmas speeches but no one criticised her.

But now we have a 'Labour' president and a 'Labour' agenda to ban all religion and rabble rabble rabble....

I did have the misfortune to hear parts of both Livelines and I didn't know whether to drive into the floodwaters in despair or laugh

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But now we have a 'Labour' president and a 'Labour' agenda to ban all religion and rabble rabble rabble....

That word "agenda" needs to be taken out with its evil friend "ethos" and both should be shot at dawn.

Much as one would stay in a cold bath to listen to ISIHAC, one would leave a warm one to turn off a radio transmitting a debate which included either of these silly words.

expectationlost

oh the chief of staff apologised not the Monsignor http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/army-apologises-over-remarks-about-higgins-1.1644048

raze_them_all_

expectationlost wrote: »

it was actually called his Christmas and New Year Message 2013 http://www.president.ie/uncategorized/christmas-and-new-year-message-2013/ transcript of speech



how many faiths share the mesasge of christmas?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbC9j9cLbsU

the army chaplin in a homily criticised President Higgins for not mentioning christianity in his xmas speech, this was picked up by liveline and now he has had to apologise to the president http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/army-apologises-over-remarks-about-higgins-1.1644048

ya know I think he might had a point, why do a Christmas message and not mention christianity

Because christmas is a pagan festival and nothing to do with jebus at all?

expectationlost

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

Because christmas is a pagan festival and nothing to do with jebus at all?

the President made a 'Christmas and New Years message'

raze_them_all_

expectationlost wrote: »

the President made a 'Christmas and New Years message'

I think you need to research how christmas came about

expectationlost

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

I think you need to research how christmas came about

all very interesting but President Higgins didn't make 'how christmas came about and New Year Message' he made a 'Christmas and New Year message'

raze_them_all_

expectationlost wrote: »

all very interest but President Higgins didn't make 'how christmas came about and New Year Message' he made a 'Christmas and New Year message'

exactly and christmas has nothing to do with jebus

expectationlost

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

exactly and christmas has nothing to do with jebus

jebus? a member of a Canaanite tribe who inhabited and built Jerusalem prior to its conquest by King David? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebusite

Bannasidhe

expectationlost wrote: »

jebus? a member of a Canaanite tribe who inhabited and built Jerusalem prior to its conquest by King David? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebusite

Well it can't be celebrating the birth of Jesus as no one knows when that (allegedly) occurred.

Even Christians - or at least the ones who read the Bible - agree whenever it was - it wasn't on Dec 25th....or even in December.

Although it is difficult to determine the first time anyone celebrated December 25 as Christmas Day, historians are in general agreement that it was sometime during the fourth century. This is an amazingly late date. Christmas was not observed in Rome, the capital of the Roman Empire, until about 300 years after Christ's death. Its origins cannot be traced back to either the teachings or practices of the earliest Christians.

http://www.ucg.org/bible-faq/when-was-jesus-christ-born-was-jesus-born-december-25-christmas-day

Days 298

expectationlost wrote: »

jebus? a member of a Canaanite tribe who inhabited and built Jerusalem prior to its conquest by King David? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebusite

You got Google Dictionary on Chrome too? :pac:

SpaceTime

I think it would take a LOT more to pressure Michael D!

He's a man who has never ever minced his words about social inclusion, human rights and socially progressive politics.

That's one of the major reasons many people voted for him.

He's the President of Ireland, not of Holy Catholic Ireland as some of his predecessors may have been.

expectationlost

lost posts from today's hiccup

It seems the military priest is unrepentant. From the IT article; Time for a court martial. This is a serious matter, its right up there with eating the commander in chief's carrier pigeon

8 hours, 31 minutes in Atheism & Agnosticism by recedite 30 Replies 617 Views 1 Thank

I am not a Christian and had great craic celebrating Christmas this year. Can you get off this point now?

8 hours, 54 minutes in Atheism & Agnosticism by Doctor DooM 30 Replies 617 Views

expectationlost

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think it would take a LOT more to pressure Michael D!

He's a man who has never ever minced his words about social inclusion, human rights and socially progressive politics.

That's one of the major reasons many people voted for him.

He's the President of Ireland, not of Holy Catholic Ireland as some of his predecessors may have been.

I myself would't have had a problem with him mentioning christianity in his christmas speech

'President's religion is none of your business' by Niamh Horan
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/presidents-religion-is-none-of-your-business-29889058.html
lots of mention of christians from other leaders in the piece.



she could have just watched the presidential debate http://www.rte.ie/news/player/2011/1012/3079373-prime-time-presidency-debate/ at 15mins where Michael D Higgins was asked he said 'I am was spiritual, I am a believer'

but the point was to ask and see what headline could be made of it

Hotblack Desiato

Army CHAPLAIN not Charlie CHAPLIN, FFS.

expectationlost

'Inappropriate' to ask President if he is an atheist http://shar.es/9YPNQ via @Independent_ie

"Are you questioning the sincerity of the president taking the oath?" the Aras spokesman asked.

Presidents spokesperson making things worse for Gilmore re taking the oath for council of state

SpaceTime

That would just prove the oaths are unconstitutional as the state is obliged to not endow any religion etc

See Article 44 of the constitution.

Yet, it keeps doing just that over and over.

As for the quote above, we don't know what the question asked was.

This kind of stuff is basically yet more Irish institutionalised sectarianism of sorts. If you're not part of the establishment, you're being harassed and discriminated against legally through stuff like this.

We never really understood what republicanism is.

raze_them_all_

The phrase complete separation of church and state was invented for a reason and should be like that in every country

SpaceTime

The biggest issue is we never moved on from the British system as it was circa 1920.

The UK system has become open and tolerant but it still has a fully established religion the bishops of which sit in the house of lords and a head of state that's head of the church.

We just painted the post boxes green and slotted the Catholic Church into the C of E position in England (almost anyway).

There was a lot of talk about Republican values and I mean that in the classical sense. However, little was done to achieve that.

There's a big difference between being independent and being a republic.

There was no place for that kind of religiosity in a republic.

There simply shouldn't be anything other than swearing an oath to the Irish people and to do your job in office properly. Your religious beliefs shouldn't matter.

Prayers at legislature meetings and local government shouldn't be there either. It's endowment of a religion.

We just retained all the British pomp and religious ceremonies giving them a dose of Catholicism.

I think at this stage a new constitution and a second republic might not be a bad idea.

It could also be an opportunity to make sweeping changes to transparency and draw a line under the scandals of the past (financial, institutional abuse etc).

France would have been a decent model or the USA. Both are much more aware of what being a republic is all about.

I actually think had we gone that route we would also have been less scary to NI moderate unionists too who looked south and saw a catholic theocracy emerging in the 1930s-late 60s. Things only started to slowly become more secular in the 70s !

So it may have even inadvertently helped to copper fastened partition!

It's absolutely vital that we actually recognise what we've been doing and actually look towards being a genuine open society where we all (even atheists) have equal rights.

Morag

Mary McAleese never mentioned it in her christmas messages, hmmm is that an axe I hear being ground? Moron should know better as our President is the head of our armed forces.

SpaceTime

Mary McAleese is actually a very good example too.

She was very much President of ALL of Ireland and made that clear on several occasions. Including taking a US based catholic bishop to task who lectured her about not promoting Catholic Ireland.
She was also very good on LGBT issues etc

She did that while still being a catholic and is now studying canon law in Rome.

Just shows how a President of Ireland is a president of IRELAND and whether they're catholic, protestant, jewish, or anything else or an agnostic, an athiest etc shouldn't make any difference. Likewise they can be any race, gender or sexual orientation either.

I just want to be able to elect the best person for the job!

We've actually had a run of exceptionally good presidents. Long may it continue!

Akrasia

While christmas is celebrated by christians as a religious holiday (in theory at least)
It's also a public holiday and you don't have to believe in christ to celebrate christmas any more than you need to believe in Thor to use the name Thursday for that day of the week.

I find it funny when people point out that I shouldn't celebrate christmas because I'm an atheist. I also find it funny when atheists oppose religious symbols at christmas

Atheists don't usually believe in Santa but are happy to have pictures of santa everywhere and sing songs about flying reindeers. Jesus and the exploits of God are just as make believe as Santa so I'm all for singing Silent night and looking at mangers etc and just treat them all as a bit of fun and fantasy

SpaceTime

It's also an ancient winter solstice festival that was morphed into a Christian context and that has probably been cheering people up in the middle of cold, miserable northern hemisphere winters for many many millennia !

The non religious aspects of it belong to everyone!

vibe666

He is a political figure, the democratically elected President of ALL of the people in Ireland, of all faiths (which he mentioned).

Should he (and the rest of us) have to specifically profess belief in and make mention of Santa Claus as well as Jesus in order to be allowed to celebrate Christmas?

Will we all have profess belief in the easter bunny and get baptised before we can give and receive chocolate eggs at easter too now?

Sorry, but christianity merely adopted christmas just as it adopted everything else, it didn't invent any of them any more than it invented marriage and as much as the bible bashers are going to hate it, you don't get exclusive access to them or have any say in preventing other people from enjoying them as they wish.

SpaceTime

We could always move it back a few days and head down to Newgrange on the 21st and check out Ireland's oldest time piece in action.

Not particularly religious, but still kinda cool to check out a bit of local astrophysics in action and head out for some pints.

lazygal

SpaceTime wrote: »

We could always move it back a few days and head down to Newgrange on the 21st and check out Ireland's oldest time piece in action.

Not particularly religious, but still kinda cool to check out a bit of local astrophysics in action and head out for some pints.

I'll bring the Hawaiian pizza and some lemon puff biscuits.

Brian Shanahan

robindch wrote: »

Briefly back on topic, the Defence Forces Press Office has apologized on behalf of the priest who complained about the President's christmas message has apologized:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/army-apologises-over-remarks-about-higgins-1.1644048

The only appropriate apology would be summoning him to a meeting of the top brass, playing "These boots are made for walking" before handing him his dishonourable discharge.

Criticising the President is an offence of gross insubordination towards a senior officer if you're an officer of the PDF.

Sarky

I rather prefer that instead of just the priest in question apologising, the whole army has apologised for him. It sets a nice "Seriously, we're not with this guy" precedent.

Brian Shanahan

Sarky wrote: »

I rather prefer that instead of just the priest in question apologising, the whole army has apologised for him. It sets a nice "Seriously, we're not with this guy" precedent.

Then discharge him. By not applying the appropriate penalty for the gross insubordination they both implicitly endorsed his view and disrespected the highest civil and military office holder in the land.

Just as Paddy Donegan should have been sacked after verbally attacking Uachtarán Ó'Dáiligh the chaplain should be dishonourably discharged now. But then again the power brokers in Ireland think the office holder of the Presidency is simply a lap dog to be occasionally petted and swatted any time they speak out of turn.

iguana

Cabaal wrote: »

The podcast also includes numerous other religious people complaining that schools are going back on little Christmas (even when they are catholic ethos) and that they don't get other holy days off anymore.

When do/did the Educate Together schools go back? I assumed that they'd go back roughly 2 weeks after Christmas, on whichever day made most sense. Ie, the 6th this year as it's Monday. But thinking about it, as ET schools very likely have a proportionally higher number of immigrants from cultures who have big celebrations on the eve of 5th and the day of the 6th. Not too many Irish families will genuinely care about missing mass on the 6th but those who have always celebrated with parties, cakes, plays and/or presents from magic camels would probably like the time to celebrate their fun home traditions.

recedite

iguana wrote: »

Not too many Irish families will genuinely care about missing mass on the 6th but those who have always celebrated with parties, cakes, plays and/or presents from magic camels would probably like the time to celebrate their fun home traditions.

What are you talking about? Is this some eastern orthodox christian tradition? If so, it's no reason to close down a school in Ireland.

recedite

Sarky wrote: »

I rather prefer that instead of just the priest in question apologising, the whole army has apologised for him. It sets a nice "Seriously, we're not with this guy" precedent.

No, it was just a guy in the press office apologising, in an attempt to defuse the situation. Presumably the priest had already refused to retract what he had said. So he is still guilty of insubordination, and still he goes unpunished.