Army chaplin criticises lack of mention of Christianity in President's Xmas speech

expectationlost

lost posts from today's hiccup

It seems the military priest is unrepentant. From the IT article; Time for a court martial. This is a serious matter, its right up there with eating the commander in chief's carrier pigeon

8 hours, 31 minutes in Atheism & Agnosticism by recedite 30 Replies 617 Views 1 Thank

I am not a Christian and had great craic celebrating Christmas this year. Can you get off this point now?

8 hours, 54 minutes in Atheism & Agnosticism by Doctor DooM 30 Replies 617 Views

expectationlost

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think it would take a LOT more to pressure Michael D!

He's a man who has never ever minced his words about social inclusion, human rights and socially progressive politics.

That's one of the major reasons many people voted for him.

He's the President of Ireland, not of Holy Catholic Ireland as some of his predecessors may have been.

I myself would't have had a problem with him mentioning christianity in his christmas speech

'President's religion is none of your business' by Niamh Horan
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/presidents-religion-is-none-of-your-business-29889058.html
lots of mention of christians from other leaders in the piece.



she could have just watched the presidential debate http://www.rte.ie/news/player/2011/1012/3079373-prime-time-presidency-debate/ at 15mins where Michael D Higgins was asked he said 'I am was spiritual, I am a believer'

but the point was to ask and see what headline could be made of it

Hotblack Desiato

Army CHAPLAIN not Charlie CHAPLIN, FFS.

expectationlost

'Inappropriate' to ask President if he is an atheist http://shar.es/9YPNQ via @Independent_ie

"Are you questioning the sincerity of the president taking the oath?" the Aras spokesman asked.

Presidents spokesperson making things worse for Gilmore re taking the oath for council of state

SpaceTime

That would just prove the oaths are unconstitutional as the state is obliged to not endow any religion etc

See Article 44 of the constitution.

Yet, it keeps doing just that over and over.

As for the quote above, we don't know what the question asked was.

This kind of stuff is basically yet more Irish institutionalised sectarianism of sorts. If you're not part of the establishment, you're being harassed and discriminated against legally through stuff like this.

We never really understood what republicanism is.

raze_them_all_

The phrase complete separation of church and state was invented for a reason and should be like that in every country

SpaceTime

The biggest issue is we never moved on from the British system as it was circa 1920.

The UK system has become open and tolerant but it still has a fully established religion the bishops of which sit in the house of lords and a head of state that's head of the church.

We just painted the post boxes green and slotted the Catholic Church into the C of E position in England (almost anyway).

There was a lot of talk about Republican values and I mean that in the classical sense. However, little was done to achieve that.

There's a big difference between being independent and being a republic.

There was no place for that kind of religiosity in a republic.

There simply shouldn't be anything other than swearing an oath to the Irish people and to do your job in office properly. Your religious beliefs shouldn't matter.

Prayers at legislature meetings and local government shouldn't be there either. It's endowment of a religion.

We just retained all the British pomp and religious ceremonies giving them a dose of Catholicism.

I think at this stage a new constitution and a second republic might not be a bad idea.

It could also be an opportunity to make sweeping changes to transparency and draw a line under the scandals of the past (financial, institutional abuse etc).

France would have been a decent model or the USA. Both are much more aware of what being a republic is all about.

I actually think had we gone that route we would also have been less scary to NI moderate unionists too who looked south and saw a catholic theocracy emerging in the 1930s-late 60s. Things only started to slowly become more secular in the 70s !

So it may have even inadvertently helped to copper fastened partition!

It's absolutely vital that we actually recognise what we've been doing and actually look towards being a genuine open society where we all (even atheists) have equal rights.

Morag

Mary McAleese never mentioned it in her christmas messages, hmmm is that an axe I hear being ground? Moron should know better as our President is the head of our armed forces.

SpaceTime

Mary McAleese is actually a very good example too.

She was very much President of ALL of Ireland and made that clear on several occasions. Including taking a US based catholic bishop to task who lectured her about not promoting Catholic Ireland.
She was also very good on LGBT issues etc

She did that while still being a catholic and is now studying canon law in Rome.

Just shows how a President of Ireland is a president of IRELAND and whether they're catholic, protestant, jewish, or anything else or an agnostic, an athiest etc shouldn't make any difference. Likewise they can be any race, gender or sexual orientation either.

I just want to be able to elect the best person for the job!

We've actually had a run of exceptionally good presidents. Long may it continue!

Akrasia

While christmas is celebrated by christians as a religious holiday (in theory at least)
It's also a public holiday and you don't have to believe in christ to celebrate christmas any more than you need to believe in Thor to use the name Thursday for that day of the week.

I find it funny when people point out that I shouldn't celebrate christmas because I'm an atheist. I also find it funny when atheists oppose religious symbols at christmas

Atheists don't usually believe in Santa but are happy to have pictures of santa everywhere and sing songs about flying reindeers. Jesus and the exploits of God are just as make believe as Santa so I'm all for singing Silent night and looking at mangers etc and just treat them all as a bit of fun and fantasy

SpaceTime

It's also an ancient winter solstice festival that was morphed into a Christian context and that has probably been cheering people up in the middle of cold, miserable northern hemisphere winters for many many millennia !

The non religious aspects of it belong to everyone!

vibe666

He is a political figure, the democratically elected President of ALL of the people in Ireland, of all faiths (which he mentioned).

Should he (and the rest of us) have to specifically profess belief in and make mention of Santa Claus as well as Jesus in order to be allowed to celebrate Christmas?

Will we all have profess belief in the easter bunny and get baptised before we can give and receive chocolate eggs at easter too now?

Sorry, but christianity merely adopted christmas just as it adopted everything else, it didn't invent any of them any more than it invented marriage and as much as the bible bashers are going to hate it, you don't get exclusive access to them or have any say in preventing other people from enjoying them as they wish.

SpaceTime

We could always move it back a few days and head down to Newgrange on the 21st and check out Ireland's oldest time piece in action.

Not particularly religious, but still kinda cool to check out a bit of local astrophysics in action and head out for some pints.

lazygal

SpaceTime wrote: »

We could always move it back a few days and head down to Newgrange on the 21st and check out Ireland's oldest time piece in action.

Not particularly religious, but still kinda cool to check out a bit of local astrophysics in action and head out for some pints.

I'll bring the Hawaiian pizza and some lemon puff biscuits.

Brian Shanahan

robindch wrote: »

Briefly back on topic, the Defence Forces Press Office has apologized on behalf of the priest who complained about the President's christmas message has apologized:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/army-apologises-over-remarks-about-higgins-1.1644048

The only appropriate apology would be summoning him to a meeting of the top brass, playing "These boots are made for walking" before handing him his dishonourable discharge.

Criticising the President is an offence of gross insubordination towards a senior officer if you're an officer of the PDF.

Sarky

I rather prefer that instead of just the priest in question apologising, the whole army has apologised for him. It sets a nice "Seriously, we're not with this guy" precedent.

Brian Shanahan

Sarky wrote: »

I rather prefer that instead of just the priest in question apologising, the whole army has apologised for him. It sets a nice "Seriously, we're not with this guy" precedent.

Then discharge him. By not applying the appropriate penalty for the gross insubordination they both implicitly endorsed his view and disrespected the highest civil and military office holder in the land.

Just as Paddy Donegan should have been sacked after verbally attacking Uachtarán Ó'Dáiligh the chaplain should be dishonourably discharged now. But then again the power brokers in Ireland think the office holder of the Presidency is simply a lap dog to be occasionally petted and swatted any time they speak out of turn.

iguana

Cabaal wrote: »

The podcast also includes numerous other religious people complaining that schools are going back on little Christmas (even when they are catholic ethos) and that they don't get other holy days off anymore.

When do/did the Educate Together schools go back? I assumed that they'd go back roughly 2 weeks after Christmas, on whichever day made most sense. Ie, the 6th this year as it's Monday. But thinking about it, as ET schools very likely have a proportionally higher number of immigrants from cultures who have big celebrations on the eve of 5th and the day of the 6th. Not too many Irish families will genuinely care about missing mass on the 6th but those who have always celebrated with parties, cakes, plays and/or presents from magic camels would probably like the time to celebrate their fun home traditions.

recedite

iguana wrote: »

Not too many Irish families will genuinely care about missing mass on the 6th but those who have always celebrated with parties, cakes, plays and/or presents from magic camels would probably like the time to celebrate their fun home traditions.

What are you talking about? Is this some eastern orthodox christian tradition? If so, it's no reason to close down a school in Ireland.

recedite

Sarky wrote: »

I rather prefer that instead of just the priest in question apologising, the whole army has apologised for him. It sets a nice "Seriously, we're not with this guy" precedent.

No, it was just a guy in the press office apologising, in an attempt to defuse the situation. Presumably the priest had already refused to retract what he had said. So he is still guilty of insubordination, and still he goes unpunished.

expectationlost

that not very christian christmas and news year message from michael d higgins http://www.president.ie/uncategorized/christmas-and-new-year-message-2013/ hadn't seen that christmas card image before

expectationlost

tihs months Alive http://www.alive.ie/uploads/6/5/1/1/6511516/alive_feb_14.pdf wondered michael d higgins of plagerising his speech from obama's christmas speech BO http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/12/25/weekly-address-president-and-first-lady-wish-everyone-happy-holiday-seas

MDH http://www.president.ie/uncategorized/christmas-and-new-year-message-2013/

DH "The message of Christmas, shared by many faiths", BO "regardless of our faith

MDH speech was published 3 days before Obama's

Alive page 7 http://www.alive.ie/uploads/6/5/1/1/6511516/alive_feb_14.pdf
he could be talking about a previous speech but it seesm not, not very clear to as to what he saying he's plagerised but the removing christianity from christmas thing seems to be his focus too

Sarky

Good old Alive! knows how to check facts like nobody's business.

Delirium

In the minds of the Alive! crew it's probably perfectly reasonable that the Irish president can travel through time :P

swampgas

A bit OT, but I always found it amusing that any army would want to have a chaplain. That a Christian priest or minister would would want to be an army chaplain is more than amusing, it's downright contradictory, but then again so is religion.

Cabaal

SW wrote: »

In the minds of the Alive! crew it's probably perfectly reasonable that the Irish president can travel through time :P

Jesus can come back from the dead, millions of animals can fit on a small wooden boat, all of human kind can come from two people, the earth is only 6,000 years old.

Time travel is easy!

expectationlost

Higgins has gone full baby jesus in this year Christmas and New Year Message http://www.president.ie/news/christmas-and-new-year-message-2014/ after previous criticism

and they still complain http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/theres-no-room-for-christ-in-michael-ds-christmas-message-30853226.html

SpaceTime

He should just invite the whole country up to the Aras for presidential mince pies! Problem solved.

swampgas

expectationlost wrote: »

Higgins has gone full baby jesus in this year Christmas and New Year Message http://www.president.ie/news/christmas-and-new-year-message-2014/ after previous criticism

and they still complain http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/theres-no-room-for-christ-in-michael-ds-christmas-message-30853226.html

Funny how people keep confusing the president with the pope.

SpaceTime

swampgas wrote: »

Funny how people keep confusing the president with the pope.

They've one of the most competent, rounded, sophisticated, intellectual, genuine, caring, humanist heads of state in the world and all they can do moan!

Our recent three presidents have been absolutely outstanding.

I don't think anyone expected Michael D to be a holier than thou, right wing Catholic president. That's not what we voted for.

His Christmas message is trying to strike a chord on homelessness by the looks of it.

Honestly! Have we nothing more serious to be droning on about than a president who by most accounts is doing a really good job??

It's a Christmas message from the president, not Mass!