Newbie question

pointer28

Hi all,

I'm starting a very basic strength training routine from today. I'm a runner / cyclist and as such I am just interested in strengthening weaknesses in glutes, hamstrings, core etc rather than body building.

I'm working from an internet plan which has three sessions a week to be alternated between workout A & B. Each workout has 4 exercises with 3 sets of 10 reps of each exercise. We'll call them I, II, III & IV.

My question is this:

Should I do the 3 x 10 of I, before moving on to 3 x 10 of II, then the same with III & IV.

OR should I do 10 x I, then 10 x II, 10 x III, 10 x IV before starting again and doing the whole thing three more times.

The first option would really stress one muscle group at a time before moving onto the next one. Is this exactly what I want to be doing or would the second option be better and spreading the stress over the whole body?

thegreatiam

pointer28 wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm starting a very basic strength training routine from today. I'm a runner / cyclist and as such I am just interested in strengthening weaknesses in glutes, hamstrings, core etc rather than body building.

I'm working from an internet plan which has three sessions a week to be alternated between workout A & B. Each workout has 4 exercises with 3 sets of 10 reps of each exercise. We'll call them I, II, III & IV.

My question is this:

Should I do the 3 x 10 of I, before moving on to 3 x 10 of II, then the same with III & IV.

OR should I do 10 x I, then 10 x II, 10 x III, 10 x IV before starting again and doing the whole thing three more times.

The first option would really stress one muscle group at a time before moving onto the next one. Is this exactly what I want to be doing or would the second option be better and spreading the stress over the whole body?

Normally you would do 3 sets of 1 exercise with a short break (long enough to recover) between sets, then change exercise.

You can also superset two or more exercises.
this is doing exercise 1, followed by exercise 2 then a break for the prescribed sets.

however, this would not be strength training. by doing all 4 exercises 10 reps a piece then what you are doing is more akin to cardio and or bodybuilding.

where did you get the strength routine?

pointer28

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

That answers the question perfectly. I got the routine from a google search:

http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/the-beginner-weight-training-workout-routine/

I have no idea how good or bad it is but if you can point in the direction of something better I'd be much obliged.

I did a few gym classes with a barbell that are very well regarded by local runners / triathletes but the times don't really suit so I picked up an old barbell from my parent's shed and am hoping to work from there. The classes I did were based on low weight, high rep and lots of heart pounding cardio stuff. Cardio is my strong point and I do 10+ hours a week of running and cycling so it's strength/injury prevention I'm definitely interested in, just without huge weight gains.

thegreatiam

its ok,

I would suggest that to get stronger using a bigger weight and less reps.

the standard ranges would be roughly:
1-5 reps for strength,

5-8 reps size/strength

8-12 size/endurance

12+ endurance


The higher the reps the lighter the weight will need to be.

basically to increase your strength you need to lift as heavy as you can. if you can lift it 10 times then its not heavy enough.

going 8-10 reps wouldnt be bad, youll be getting fitter and stronger, but not at fast pace. it really just depends on what your real goals are.

pointer28

thegreatiam wrote: »

its ok,

I would suggest that to get stronger using a bigger weight and less reps.

the standard ranges would be roughly:
1-5 reps for strength,

5-8 reps size/strength

8-12 size/endurance

12+ endurance


The higher the reps the lighter the weight will need to be.

basically to increase your strength you need to lift as heavy as you can. if you can lift it 10 times then its not heavy enough.

going 8-10 reps wouldnt be bad, youll be getting fitter and stronger, but not at fast pace. it really just depends on what your real goals are.

Sorry, one last question. Should I still do 3 x 5 reps at a higher weight or should it just be a total of 5?

thegreatiam

pointer28 wrote: »

Sorry, one last question. Should I still do 3 x 5 reps at a higher weight or should it just be a total of 5?

3x5

or if you want 5x5

pointer28

Thanks for that!

thegreatiam

pointer28 wrote: »

Thanks for that!

you can get a lot of info here, its a beginner strength program http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki

pointer28

Just to add.

Took your advice today and changed my workout to 5 x 5 reps at 30lbs, not massive by any stretch of the imagination but that's all I have for the moment, only a cheap Argos barbell.

I can really feel the difference, the last couple of reps took a bit of effort, and my hamstrings (biggest problem area) feel a bit achey now, but in a good way.

Thanks again for your help.

thegreatiam

pointer28 wrote: »

Just to add.

Took your advice today and changed my workout to 5 x 5 reps at 30lbs, not massive by any stretch of the imagination but that's all I have for the moment, only a cheap Argos barbell.

I can really feel the difference, the last couple of reps took a bit of effort, and my hamstrings (biggest problem area) feel a bit achey now, but in a good way.

Thanks again for your help.

You start every program with low weight, especially beginner programs.

You will quickly add on a lot of weight tho. aim for an increase in 2.5 kgs each session.

So if youre doing starting strength you'll add 15kg to your squat in the first 2 weeks.

start to plan for the near future when you out grow your argos weights

pointer28

Is there any benefit at all in just getting to a respectable weight and just repeating the sessions 3 times a week thereafter?

It's not really strength for it's own sake that I'm after but rather as injury prevention for running.

On the weight aspect, what should I be aiming to build to? I'm 5'9" and 72kgs (target 70kg).

thegreatiam

pointer28 wrote: »

Is there any benefit at all in just getting to a respectable weight and just repeating the sessions 3 times a week thereafter?

It's not really strength for it's own sake that I'm after but rather as injury prevention for running.

On the weight aspect, what should I be aiming to build to? I'm 5'9" and 72kgs (target 70kg).

first of all what is a respectable weight?

second, your body will quickly adapt to any thing you throw at it.
so if you get to a weight and then just stay there your body will just adapt to lifting that weight. you'll stop getting stronger and the exercise will just be too easy to force a change.

if your new to this type of exercise then youll be able to add weight for a very long time before you reach any real maximum.

Alf Veedersane

pointer28 wrote: »

Is there any benefit at all in just getting to a respectable weight and just repeating the sessions 3 times a week thereafter?

It's not really strength for it's own sake that I'm after but rather as injury prevention for running.

If you got to a point where you could run 10km at 4.0 mins/km, would you just continue to run at that pace or try to improve it.

Improving strength doesn't have to have a negative impact on running.

What kind of running do you do? What would be your racing distance?

pointer28

thegreatiam wrote: »

first of all what is a respectable weight?

second, your body will quickly adapt to any thing you throw at it.
so if you get to a weight and then just stay there your body will just adapt to lifting that weight. you'll stop getting stronger and the exercise will just be too easy to force a change.

if your new to this type of exercise then youll be able to add weight for a very long time before you reach any real maximum.

I have no idea what a respectable weight would be, I thought you might be able to point me towards a target weight, that's why I put my height and weight at the end.

If the exercise is too easy to force a change will it do anything to maintain strength? Strength and conditioning as injury prevention is my main target rather than strength itself.

thegreatiam

pointer28 wrote: »

I have no idea what a respectable weight would be, I thought you might be able to point me towards a target weight, that's why I put my height and weight at the end.

If the exercise is too easy to force a change will it do anything to maintain strength? Strength and conditioning as injury prevention is my main target rather than strength itself.

nope, I can only give ball park figures of what you can lift.

punch your info in here and it will ball park it for you
http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards.html



Think og your weight training as part of your running training. like alf said , you wouldnt get to a certain running pace and then just stop, you d keep going.

Now im not talking about going indefinitely and trying to break world records, but your training should always be progressive and towards something.

having stronger muscles is never going to have a draw back so its pointless thinking well ill do it until I can lift 50 kg then ill stop, as you wont be getting stronger. You'll just stagnate at 50.

there are multiple articles on runners using weight lifting to improve their running, you should check them out

pointer28

If you got to a point where you could run 10km at 4.0 mins/km, would you just continue to run at that pace or try to improve it.

Personally I would but lots of people just jog regularly with no race targets yet they still get a general health benefit from regular exercise.

Improving strength doesn't have to have a negative impact on running.

Point taken but I'm just trying to avoid buying even more gear that I haven't got room in the house for. It's already stuffed with running and cycling gear.

What kind of running do you do? What would be your racing distance?

My favourite distance is the Half Marathon but I'll sometimes race a shorter distance like 5k or 10k. At the moment I'm running about 50k a week but have been up to 90k a week last autumn. I also do at least 4 hours a week on the bike. I was entered in Dublin marathon last year but dropped out due to hamstring problems. My PT told me I have very weak glutes and that I need to work on stretching (sorted) and strength.

I don't want to sound like I'm arguing and I just want to repeat that I'm grateful for all your replies.

thegreatiam

most people run because that's what they think you have to do to get and stay in shape. some run because they like to run. (I hate it and literally wouldnt run if my arse was on fire, but thats me)

but any type of training is better with a goal and measurable progress, even if its only for motivation reasons.

Dont buy new gear, to do most of these programs youd need 100+kgs of weight and a rack and bench etc. unless there is a strong reason to buy it you should just join a gym.
ben dunne is 175 for the year and has all the equipment I need.

stronger legs = better runner.
running doesn't help build muscle, but its great for heart and lung fitness. getting your legs strong will help you run with better form, and keep you injury free.

hit up the strong lifts blog or the starting strength wiki page and start one of those programs, they are both "leg centric" enough to do as a runner beginning weights.

runawaybishop

thegreatiam wrote: »

Dont buy new gear, to do most of these programs youd need 100+kgs of weight and a rack and bench etc. unless there is a strong reason to buy it you should just join a gym.
ben dunne is 175 for the year and has all the equipment I need.

Booooooo, hiiiisssssss.

Training at home works better for some people and at the end you own the equipment, which you can add to gradually until you have a mancave. Don't knock it :pac:

thegreatiam

runawaybishop wrote: »

Booooooo, hiiiisssssss.

Training at works works better for some people and at the end you own the equipment, which you can add to gradually until you have a mancave. Don't knock it :pac:

not knocking it, infact aspiring to it. But no point spending a few hundred for equipment that is secondary to your main activity.

youll need at least 50kgs to begin and space for a bench. plus a decent barbell.

you can go to argos but youll outgrow the set in a matter of weeks.

at 7.5 kgs a week on the squat even starting with the bar only you'll be needing more weights in a month.

Then youll need a rack. strong enough for at least 125

within 12 weeks you'll be over 100kg on your squat and dead lift. so youll need more weights again.

the youll have outgrown your rack. (then you got to look to your space, do you need to reenforce the floor, can the carpet stand up to the abuse etc)

I'm not going to recommend a 300-400 euro initial outlay for someone who is obviously on the fence especially when they will likely be needing to spend at least the same again withing the year.

not when there are cheap gyms with the equipment he needs all over the place for less than €200.

Know the audience.

runawaybishop

thegreatiam wrote: »

not knocking it, infact aspiring to it. But no point spending a few hundred for equipment that is secondary to your main activity.

youll need at least 50kgs to begin and space for a bench. plus a decent barbell.

you can go to argos but youll outgrow the set in a matter of weeks.

at 7.5 kgs a week on the squat even starting with the bar only you'll be needing more weights in a month.

Then youll need a rack. strong enough for at least 125

within 12 weeks you'll be over 100kg on your squat and dead lift. so youll need more weights again.

the youll have outgrown your rack. (then you got to look to your space, do you need to reenforce the floor, can the carpet stand up to the abuse etc)

I'm not going to recommend a 300-400 euro initial outlay for someone who is obviously on the fence especially when they will likely be needing to spend at least the same again withing the year.

not when there are cheap gyms with the equipment he needs all over the place for less than €200.

Know the audience.

So you buy more weight each month. You can pick up a second hand set on adverts or done deal easily also. I don't see the point in telling someone not to buy their own equipment, they should do whatever works for them.

thegreatiam

runawaybishop wrote: »

So you buy more weight each month. You can pick up a second hand set on adverts or done deal easily also. I don't see the point in telling someone not to buy their own equipment, they should do whatever works for them.

Ok ill phrase my statement to you don't need to buy equipment unless you want to. happy pedantic pants:pac:?

I only brought it up because he said

Point taken but I'm just trying to avoid buying even more gear that I haven't got room in the house for. It's already stuffed with running and cycling gear

and i dint want to waste time and or effort trying to convince him otherwise.

Alf Veedersane

runawaybishop wrote: »

Training at home works better for some people and at the end you own the equipment, which you can add to gradually until you have a mancave.

This is why I've been putting off turning the last room of the house into a third bedroom

runawaybishop

thegreatiam wrote: »

Ok ill phrase my statement to you don't need to buy equipment unless you want to. happy pedantic pants:pac:?

I only brought it up because he said


and i dint want to waste time and or effort trying to convince him otherwise.

Yes, i am happy now :pac:

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

This is why I've been putting off turning the last room of the house into a third bedroom

One day I will build a shedquarters. I had planned on an internal mancave but that has now become a nursery

Alf Veedersane

runawaybishop wrote: »

One day I will build a shedquarters. I had planned on an internal mancave but that has now become a nursery

""We don't need another bedroom. They're all small...they'll fit in one"

thegreatiam

I have a yard, with an old stone wall and a half shed covering it. it would be perfect for a wall mounted rack, pull up/dip station crossfit style rig.

Unfortunately it is rented accommodation, such a waste. made worse by the fact odin equipment facebook page keeps going on about his out door rigs.

papu

runawaybishop wrote: »

So you buy more weight each month. You can pick up a second hand set on adverts or done deal easily also. I don't see the point in telling someone not to buy their own equipment, they should do whatever works for them.

Plus you can keep it in the family or sell it on after , its an investment if you treat them right!

Scuba Ste

thegreatiam wrote: »

The higher the reps the lighter the weight will need to be.

basically to increase your strength you need to lift as heavy as you can. if you can lift it 10 times then its not heavy enough.

going 8-10 reps wouldnt be bad, youll be getting fitter and stronger, but not at fast pace. it really just depends on what your real goals are.

Are you saying sets of 10 are no good for strength training? If so you're simply wrong.

OP if you're a runner and more interested in injury prevention I'd look into single leg training which is something you could easily do at home with the equipment you have. Spend your money on a trainer to show you some exercises and program for you. And if you were to do single leg training I'd almost say never do less than 10 reps.

thegreatiam

Scuba Ste wrote: »

Are you saying sets of 10 are no good for strength training? If so you're simply wrong.

OP if you're a runner and more interested in injury prevention I'd look into single leg training which is something you could easily do at home with the equipment you have. Spend your money on a trainer to show you some exercises and program for you. And if you were to do single leg training I'd almost say never do less than 10 reps.

no, that 5 reps at a heavier weight will be better and faster progress.

especially for a beginner who also needs to worry about losing form on reps 6-10

Scuba Ste

thegreatiam wrote: »

no, that 5 reps at a heavier weight will be better and faster progress.

especially for a beginner who also needs to worry about losing form on reps 6-10

Progress is measured over years not the first few months of training. And saying beginners need to worry less about technique with a heavier weight for less reps is, politely, wrong. Unless you're a relatively experienced lifter training particularly for a sport that measures strength over one maximal effort then low reps are not they best way to train, nor are they worst.

More reps (more practice) at a lower weight gives a better chance of improving technically than less reps with a heavier weight. I will say that's much of a muchness to be honest and people should do what ever they prefer or are coached to do but 'more weight, less reps' is not always best for beginners.

But anyway. The OP asked about injury prevention and strengthening the glutes and hamstrings, presumably to prevent injury in conjunction with his or her current training which is endurance based. Starting Strength isn't the answer. There's no single leg work, no direct hamstring work, no flexibility or mobility work and it doesn't include 50km running every week.

thegreatiam

the op asked about how to go about doing the exercises if they should be all at once or in separate sets.

The starting strength wiki has an explanation of how to do this.

I didnt suggest doing SS, only to read the wiki which is full of FAQs that beginners have.

The program he has is similar to SS and SL that I didnt want to just replace like with like.

Both deads and squats will target hams and glutes, and at this stage enough of his core.

OP can easily add in single leg work now or at a later stage as well as mobility. Mobility can always be done separately from his strength training.