The Middle Distance Thread

Timmaay

We did quite a short and fast session last night on the track (well not that short at 3k), but anyways the pace varied from

Timmaay

We did quite a short and fast session last night on the track (well not that short at 3k), but anyways the pace varied from 3k (72s) right down to 400m(100m in 14s)! Really hammered home how much I miss the shorter stuff ha! But only a minor diversion for the minute ha, I'm hopefully in the best shape I've been for a decent while at distance stuff right at the minute, lenister inter this weekend, jingle bells 5k is another firm target in sight. However certainly the sessions will get a lot shorter and faster come early Jan, for some sorta assault at indoors!

Sacksian

I was interested in the possibility of using xc to plug a gap in my aerobic endurance (I even tried a HRM for the first time the other day to see what that would throw up!) and had been advised to do a base phase after the track season, but I ploughed on with training and I’m wondering if it might have been a mistake not to take that opportunity.

Personally, I wouldn’t be worried about losing speed - I think you can lose a small bit of sharpness but I don’t believe you’ll lose much speed at middle-distance from increased mileage, as long as you’re doing strides every now and again. If I’m doing a session of 400s or 600s, I generally try to blast the last rep or couple of reps anyway, which keeps me in touch with running fast.

My 400 time from last year stacked up to my 800 time, and that was without specific training and run after an 800, so I don't think a lack of speed is the reason for the drop off between 800m and 1500m. If my 1500m time was better than my 800m or 800m better than my 400m, then I think I'd be more worried about working on speed - plenty of time for that anyway.

I’ll persevere with xc (I’m enjoying it, even if I’m finishing further back than I’d like) and then I’m going to try to find a middle distance base phase plan for December / January which I can then repeat later in the year. I noticed that a couple of the very good 800m guys from Raheny did Parkruns quite regularly last year and I might make a habit of doing one as my weekly tempo in the new year.

EMPM

This is a great thread, lots of info on it.

I am considering giving the masters a crack next March. Im in the 40-45 age group. Im currently running 800m in around 2:26, i know its a good bit off winning times but i would still like to give it a go, what would be a reasonable time to aim for to take part in these races.

I havent really got a plan as to what training i should be doing, currently doing two intervals sessions a week, one long (1K) and one shorter (200m & 400M), one day doing strength & core and another slow long run. Any advice would be welcome on what i should be doing.

Thanks

RayCun

EMPM wrote: »

I am considering giving the masters a crack next March. Im in the 40-45 age group. Im currently running 800m in around 2:26, i know its a good bit off winning times but i would still like to give it a go, what would be a reasonable time to aim for to take part in these races.

There's no minimum entry time Train for it, run what you run, and come back faster next time. You do have to be a club member though.

(this year the finish times were 2:03 to 2:17)

dna_leri

pconn062 wrote: »

So I thought I'd give this thread a bit of a bump. Some of us now are probably cursing cross country and thinking longingly about indoors and the return of track. I seen a little talk on dna_leri's log about base building and thought it would be useful to maybe move it over here.

So this is the first year where I am thinking about base building with outdoor track specifically in mind. I am currently trying to get into good 5k shape and hope to start base building towards the end of December. So, how do you do yours?
I have been reading Joe Rubio's 1500m guide and he advocates a good stint of cross country training up to December with real base building starting in January. Like dna_leri mentioned I think Joe advocates more that just miles and miles of easy running and instead that most easy runs should be finished at about 75% of current 5k pace. He also keeps in touch with all the systems with a weekly speed maintenance day, a 1500m pace day and a slower that 1500m session. This phase is preceded by a period where easy running is advocated to establish peak mileage levels. I was curious to get peoples opinions on this. January seems very early to me to be touching on 1500m on a weekly basis (even if it is only pretty light work such a 4x2x300m). I am interested in seeing how you think someone should approach base building for outdoor track season, for someone who is not going to focus on indoors (minus 1 race maybe for fun!)

I would say you have got to be keeping in touch with speed all year round. In early base phase that can be with strides, then progressing to hill sprints and flat sprints.

I am interested to know what does Joe Rubio consider weekly speed maintenance and at what pace those 4x2x300s are done? With long recoveries and slower pace, intervals can be purely aerobic. For example last week I did 12x200 at 3K pace with 200m recovery which is quite an easy session and predominantly aerobic while working on form.

Last year I moved away from speed for a while around this time and did a cross-country race and a 10-miler, which was no advantage and possibly blunted my speed a bit for indoors. This year there will be no cross-country for me.

However if you don't plan to peak for indoors, you can probably afford some more cross-country type work but I would recommend at least one true speed workout each week.

dna_leri

Sacksian wrote: »

My 400 time from last year stacked up to my 800 time, and that was without specific training and run after an 800, so I don't think a lack of speed is the reason for the drop off between 800m and 1500m. If my 1500m time was better than my 800m or 800m better than my 400m, then I think I'd be more worried about working on speed - plenty of time for that anyway.

.

What is your drop-off in lap times from 400-800-1500 ?

Based on my PBs, for me its 55-61-72.
A reasonable drop-off is 5s so my 1500 is out of whack, but maybe that's because I have not trained for it specifically.

Sacksian

RayCun wrote: »

There's no minimum entry time Train for it, run what you run, and come back faster next time. You do have to be a club member though.

(this year the finish times were 2:03 to 2:17)

Also, the Leinster masters would be slightly slower and there'll be enough Graded series meetings for you to have a few runs where you can see how you're progressing.

pconn062

dna_leri wrote: »

I would say you have got to be keeping in touch with speed all year round. In early base phase that can be with strides, then progressing to hill sprints and flat sprints.

I am interested to know what does Joe Rubio consider weekly speed maintenance and at what pace those 4x2x300s are done? With long recoveries and slower pace, intervals can be purely aerobic. For example last week I did 12x200 at 3K pace with 200m recovery which is quite an easy session and predominantly aerobic while working on form.

Last year I moved away from speed for a while around this time and did a cross-country race and a 10-miler, which was no advantage and possibly blunted my speed a bit for indoors. This year there will be no cross-country for me.

However if you don't plan to peak for indoors, you can probably afford some more cross-country type work but I would recommend at least one true speed workout each week.

Here is what Joe says in his middle distance guide for a suggested speed maintenance day:

Suggested speed maintenance/development day: AE run of 25-30 minutes followed 1200m of stride the straights/jog the turns (2 @ 3k pace, 2 @ 1500 pace, 2 @ 800m pace) then 3-4 x 150 RELAXED accelerations (last 10m at best

He alters this with an 800m pace day on some weeks (I have the full document if you want it). The 300's are done at 1500m pace:

3-4 x (2 x 300) at 1500 effort w/ 100 jog btw each, 400 btw sets <or> 3 x (4-6 x 400) w/ 200 jog btw each and 400 jog btw sets. 25-30 minutes followed by 4-6 light strides (3k, 1500, 800), 15-20 min cool down. Maintain pre-set 1500 pace volumes.

I am currently moving away from cross country type work to focus now on getting into decent 5k shape. I will still do the odd x-country race but it won't be the focus of the training.

Sacksian

dna_leri wrote: »

What is your drop-off in lap times from 400-800-1500 ?

Based on my PBs, for me its 55-61-72.
A reasonable drop-off is 5s so my 1500 is out of whack, but maybe that's because I have not trained for it specifically.

I'd agree 4-5s is optimum.

From last year, my 400-800-1600 is 55.5 - 61 - 69.5. The mile was early but I'd still done a fair amount of 1500 training at that stage (but had no base going into the season). And I did a 62/62 paced 800m the following weekend.

Closing that 8.5s 800/1600 differential even to 6s would bring a 10s improvement in my mile time - and I feel I'd have a better chance to do that off more mileage.

Sacksian

Just looking at that now, that difference between 800/mile pace seems massive!

EMPM

RayCun wrote: »

There's no minimum entry time Train for it, run what you run, and come back faster next time. You do have to be a club member though.

(this year the finish times were 2:03 to 2:17)

Thanks Ray, i am in a club, that the easy bit sorted.

EMPM

Sacksian wrote: »

Also, the Leinster masters would be slightly slower and there'll be enough Graded series meetings for you to have a few runs where you can see how you're progressing.

Thanks, there seems to be a lot more middle distance races then there used to be

Timmaay

On pbs I'm about 55/60/66 for 4/8/15. I've no real interest in taking the 4 much more yet, hard to know how much further I can go with 8 but dipping 2 would be sweet, however 64s and 4flat for 15 is well within me I think!

KielyUnusual

I was going to get the debate going in the XC thread again but there doesn't seem to be a lot of love for it around these parts, myself included, so I'll leave that one be.
I've offered myself up to the wisdom of the coach and I'm just blindly following the plan he sends out each week. He does seem to have an emphasis on mileage at the moment (approx. 50 a week) and there's no real speed sessions. Personally I'd like a few more continuous tempo runs of 5-6 miles but he tends to break up the tempos in to three or four sections with a short recovery in between. There's a good group to train with on these sessions so I'm happy to stick to it.
Long term, I'd like to give one or two indoor races a go but I won't be training specifically for it. Last year we kicked in to the 1500m sessions in April. This I think was good timing and I felt strong going in to the Graded Meets with plenty of scope to improve over the Summer. Seems like a long way away now :eek:

Remember, Winter miles mean Summer smiles .

Sacksian

Timmaay wrote: »

On pbs I'm about 55/60/66 for 4/8/15. I've no real interest in taking the 4 much more yet, hard to know how much further I can go with 8 but dipping 2 would be sweet, however 64s and 4flat for 15 is well within me I think!

Would 4 flat be easier for you than sub 2 or is it just the way your training is organised?

It'd be the other way around for me. I'm hoping to go sub 2 next year - it might not happen but it would be a while more further down the line before I'd be able to have a pop at breaking 4 for 15.

oldrunner

Timmaay wrote: »

On pbs I'm about 55/60/66 for 4/8/15. I've no real interest in taking the 4 much more yet, hard to know how much further I can go with 8 but dipping 2 would be sweet, however 64s and 4flat for 15 is well within me I think!

I would be 99% certain that you would not be able to run 4 flat for 1500 unless you could run 1:55 to 1:57 for 800m. I don't know anyone whose 1500 pb is not more than double the time of their 800m plus about 5 to 10 seconds. Of course, you could look at this the other way round - if you are confident you can get to 4 for 1500m, then sub 2 for 800m would be really easy.

Chivito550

oldrunner wrote: »

I would be 99% certain that you would not be able to run 4 flat for 1500 unless you could run 1:55 to 1:57 for 800m. I don't know anyone whose 1500 pb is not more than double the time of their 800m plus about 5 to 10 seconds. Of course, you could look at this the other way round - if you are confident you can get to 4 for 1500m, then sub 2 for 800m would be really easy.

Sonia O'Sullivan
2:00.69
3:58.85

oldrunner

I did say 99% certain:)

Timmaay

oldrunner wrote: »

I would be 99% certain that you would not be able to run 4 flat for 1500 unless you could run 1:55 to 1:57 for 800m. I don't know anyone whose 1500 pb is not more than double the time of their 800m plus about 5 to 10 seconds. Of course, you could look at this the other way round - if you are confident you can get to 4 for 1500m, then sub 2 for 800m would be really easy.

Yeh very valid point here. I guess I'm partly frustrated with 800 by now I'll admit, 3yrs ago in my very 1st proper 800 ever, done off the back of 15/3k training I got 2.04, and a week later a low 2.01. Since then I've ran 2.01 countless times, and only shaved a fraction off my pb. However my 15 pb has come steadily down and the 4.08 didn't feel too hard at all.

I'll take your point that I need to get comfy under 2 to be anywhere near breaking 4, hopefully the sub2 will come soon however. I gone through 600 in 1.28 in plenty of 8s, it's the last bloody 200 that the wheels keep coming off, any suggestions to help fix this!!

oldrunner

A few points that might help.
Firstly, I would see your 4:08 and 2:01 times as broadly comparable relative to each other - you probably just got there quicker in the 800 because it required less aerobic fitness and you could achieve it with more 'natural' speed but the 1500 only improved as you got stronger all round. Of course, I am only guessing here.
My second point is that I believe that breaking 800 has a huge psychological factor (it shouldn't but it seems to have). It took me ages to break it but when I did, I almost couldn't run slower than 2. You get used to the feeling and the pace and it seems natural. Belief is a massive factor. If you have access to club mates that can break 2 comfortably, I would suggest that you get one of them to pace you at a sub 2 pace for the first time and look to break through in this manner.
From a training point of view, you need to ensure you are training with race specificity in mind, which means lots of running at 28-29 second or so per 200m (can be done in 150s or in 200s). I say 28-29, because you have to allow for the fatigue in the last 200 resulting in a 31 or 32. Concentrate on speed and form in training - fast smooth intervals, long recoveries.

oldrunner

I would also be interested if you know your splits for a typical 800 - there's lot's of ways of getting to 600 in 1:28. For instance, you might have run 26,31,31 (or 26,30,32) - which means a last 200 in 33 is not that surprising. Alternatively, you might have run 28,30,30 - making a last 200 in 33 a real blow up. In other words, race tactics could be putting you in trouble.
I would favour a 1-2 second positive split tactic - look for a first lap in about 58 (with 200 splits of 28.5,29.5) but you will know your own preference.
Remember in the race that equal effort means you are slowing down - you will need to increase your effort at the bell to maintain speed.

Timmaay

The splits tended to be 29, 60, 1.28, 2.01, hmmm so that would be 29, 31, 28, 33. I seem to always run strong from the bell, I guess that's the 1500 runner coming out in me where I tell myself only a lap to go. Then the back straight is usually for gaining position. It tends to be the tail end of the bend about 120m to go where it all goes tits up for me, the mind says right let's go, but the legs are caked with lactic and game over, I get overtaken by several fast finishers and I've utterly no reply.

You make a far point about running 29s comfy, I'll admit often the hardest part of an 800 for me is the 1st 200, I usually find myself slow enough relative to the field on the turn and working harder than I should be to keep some sort of position. Having said that I defo ain't lacking overall speed, it's just the ability to run a comfy 28/29 more so I guess.

But anyways thanks for the advice and keep it coming please. Actually in terms of the whole sub2 yaddy ya, trust me I've been around the block enough not to get hung up on a number ha, I guess it's moreso the lack of progress under 2.01 that has me frustrated!

Netwerk Errer

This is ages away yet but I'm looking for advice on mid-distance training and structure for the outdoor season as I having got a clue how to train towards running the mile and 3k. I have my last goal 10k in February and then have 7 weeks until county track over two weekends in May.

What kind of workouts should I be focusing on in that timeframe and how should I structure the training?

Any advice would be appreciated on any aspect.

pconn062

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

This is ages away yet but I'm looking for advice on mid-distance training and structure for the outdoor season as I having got a clue how to train towards running the mile and 3k. I have my last goal 10k in February and then have 7 weeks until county track over two weekends in May.

What kind of workouts should I be focusing on in that timeframe and how should I structure the training?

Any advice would be appreciated on any aspect.

Do you have a goal race that you want to peak for? I find the hardest part of planning a track season is structuring your training to peak at the right time. Last summer, I wanted to peak for the county champs (which were in July) but I got it wrong and peaked about a month early. This was caused by starting race pace sessions to early, meaning that by mid-July I was fried. With your county champs in May, I personally would rather be a little undercooked than risk peaking too early, it's a long season.

Chivito550

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

This is ages away yet but I'm looking for advice on mid-distance training and structure for the outdoor season as I having got a clue how to train towards running the mile and 3k. I have my last goal 10k in February and then have 7 weeks until county track over two weekends in May.

What kind of workouts should I be focusing on in that timeframe and how should I structure the training?

Any advice would be appreciated on any aspect.

Do you have a coach? If not, are you in a club, and have a possible coach available to you? Having a coach is the best way to approach this. It means you don't have to do much of the thinking. You just have to do the training. He/she will do the thinking for you.

Netwerk Errer

pconn062 wrote: »

Do you have a goal race that you want to peak for? I find the hardest part of planning a track season is structuring your training to peak at the right time. Last summer, I wanted to peak for the county champs (which were in July) but I got it wrong and peaked about a month early. This was caused by starting race pace sessions to early, meaning that by mid-July I was fried. With your county champs in May, I personally would rather be a little undercooked than risk peaking too early, it's a long season.

Yeah, goal race would be the Munster outdoors 3k in mid-June. Doing County to get a feel for racing on the track. Do you think I should extend my 10k season by a month or so and then start adding the fast stuff?

Netwerk Errer

Chivito550 wrote: »

Do you have a coach? If not, are you in a club, and have a possible coach available to you? Having a coach is the best way to approach this. It means you don't have to do much of the thinking. You just have to do the training. He/she will do the thinking for you.

Yeah, I have a coach Chivito but he has no real experience in coaching mid-d. We only have one mid-d guy in the whole club and he has his own personal coach.

Chivito550

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

Yeah, I have a coach Chivito but he has no real experience in coaching mid-d. We only have one mid-d guy in the whole club and he has his own personal coach.

That's a pity. Are there any other middle distance groups near where you live that you could run with, while still competing for your club?

Netwerk Errer

Chivito550 wrote: »

That's a pity. Are there any other middle distance groups near where you live that you could run with, while still competing for your club?

Not that I know of. UL might have a group but I'm not sure if it's open to anyone that's not a student. Something to check out though.