The Middle Distance Thread

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

What would the lowest standard for men be like over 1,500 - 5,000 ?

I didn't take note of the longer distances too much but I recall a few running the 400 between 75-80 secs last year. I don't think anybody should be intimidated by the graded meets. All standards are welcome. And if you come last the only one who will care is yourself.

Timmaay

2k steeple, interesting! That a junior event only maybe? Tends to be carnage in it ha, Middle distance speed mixed in with barriers and water ha. Only thing worse is the 1500 steeple ha.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

I didn't take note of the longer distances too much but I recall a few running the 400 between 75-80 secs last year. I don't think anybody should be intimidated by the graded meets. All standards are welcome. And if you come last the only one who will care is yourself.

400m and I don't get along. I have no kick and he is too short:)

Done a few 1500 out at santry meets and was good craic. Great track.

Sacksian

Timmaay wrote: »

2k steeple, interesting! That a junior event only maybe? Tends to be carnage in it ha, Middle distance speed mixed in with barriers and water ha. Only thing worse is the 1500 steeple ha.

The programme says that the 2,000m steeplechase is for ALL. That might even mean a mixed race? It could be 2k just to get people to try it, which makes sense. Hope it encourages some speedy juniors to have a shot at it and get into it.

There were 4 in the women's and 12 in the men's at senior nationals last year. According to the AI lists, only 15 men ran under 10 mins last year! And a lot of them were in the league.

There really are very few dedicated steeplechase men in Ireland: Thomas Cotter? Rory Chesser? Are there any juniors out there specialising?

According to AI lists, only 1 person has run under 8:40 since 2000 (6th on the alltime list). There must be a few juniors who could be convinced to ditch the 1500?! Long term, you've a better opportunity of competing at major events in the steeple than the 1500.

Chivito550

Sacksian wrote: »

The programme says that the 2,000m steeplechase is for ALL. That might even mean a mixed race? It could be 2k just to get people to try it, which makes sense. Hope it encourages some speedy juniors to have a shot at it and get into it.

There were 4 in the women's and 12 in the men's at senior nationals last year. According to the AI lists, only 15 men ran under 10 mins last year! And a lot of them were in the league.

There really are very few dedicated steeplechase men in Ireland: Thomas Cotter? Rory Chesser? Are there any juniors out there specialising?

According to AI lists, only 1 person has run under 8:40 since 2000 (6th on the alltime list). There must be a few juniors who could be convinced to ditch the 1500?! Long term, you've a better opportunity of competing at major events in the steeple than the 1500.

At european level maybe, but at World level the Steeple is possible the biggest closed shop of the lot on the men's side. The Kenyan dominance trumps any other event in athletics.

The women's steeple is so weak on a world level though. Soft Olympic spots up for grabs.

RayCun

average_runner wrote: »

What would the lowest standard for men be like over 1,500 - 5,000 ?

you can see the results from last year on the Dublin Athletics site.
For instance, in meet 8 last year there was a C&D 1500m. 16 runners, 3 under 4:30, 9 more under 5, then 5:02, 5:34, 5:55, 6:27

RayCun

I don't think they have broken the 5000s into A/B/C/D races so far.
There was a 5000 in meet 7 last year. 19 runners, 2 under 15, 8 more under 16, 6 more under 17, and a 17:06, 18:20, 18:22

There aren't separate races because fewer people enter (and you can fit more people into a 5000). One of the aims of the endurance project is to get more people racing these distances, including people at the slower end. If there are enough entries they'll put on different standard races.

Sacksian

Chivito550 wrote: »

At european level maybe, but at World level the Steeple is possible the biggest closed shop of the lot on the men's side. The Kenyan dominance trumps any other event in athletics.

The women's steeple is so weak on a world level though. Soft Olympic spots up for grabs.

At world level, I think that situation could be a function of the strength of depth in Kenya i.e. athletes in Kenya realising they're not going to make the 1500m turning to the Steeple?

At first glance, the 3000m world qualifying standard appears to me a little weaker than the 1500m level. Which makes sense, because I think they're based on the number of athletes they're targeting.

So, I'm sure we can produce athletes capable of running those standards for 3,000m s/c with more support and encouragement. And, even at European level, that could be a carrot for someone to perform at a higher level. For me, more people qualifying for international competition is a good thing.

Chivito550

Sacksian wrote: »

At world level, I think that situation could be a function of the strength of depth in Kenya i.e. athletes in Kenya realising they're not going to make the 1500m turning to the Steeple?

At first glance, the 3000m world qualifying standard appears to me a little weaker than the 1500m level. Which makes sense, because I think they're based on the number of athletes they're targeting.

So, I'm sure we can produce athletes capable of running those standards for 3,000m s/c with more support and encouragement. And, even at European level, that could be a carrot for someone to perform at a higher level. For me, more people qualifying for international competition is a good thing.

I'd disagree that failed 1500 runners in Kenya gravitate to the Steeple. They've won every olympics since 1968 except 1976 and 1980 (which I think they boycotted). The 1500 on the other hand they've won just 4 times. Kenya doesn't have the history over 800/1500 that you might think.

Agree we should have more running the standards though, but like field and multi events, nobody seems to care about the steeple here. Sad but true.

Sacksian

Wow, the steeple really is an institution for the Kenyans - interesting to see the extent of their dominance!

I'd probably use a more circumspect term than "failed" runners (and it was more of a question than a statement of fact!) but I suppose I am wondering if there's an opportunity for more of our runners to compete in international competition if the Steeplechase qualifying standards are more attainable than the 1500m standards? They do look to be, even at world level.

Chivito550

Sacksian wrote: »

Wow, the steeple really is an institution for the Kenyans - interesting to see the extent of their dominance!

I'd probably use a more circumspect term than "failed" runners (and it was more of a question than a statement of fact!) but I suppose I am wondering if there's an opportunity for more of our runners to compete in international competition if the Steeplechase qualifying standards are more attainable than the 1500m standards? They do look to be, even at world level.

Absolutely. We've had a couple of athletes represent Ireland in the women's steeple who are not near international class in any other distance. Having said that the men's qualifying standards are not near as soft.

Sacksian

Entries for the middle distance events for IMC Greystones on May 2nd are now open.

8s and 15s and there's also a 5000m for athletes who have broken 15:20!

KielyUnusual

Sacksian wrote: »

Entries for the middle distance events for IMC Greystones on May 2nd are now open.

8s and 15s and there's also a 5000m for athletes who have broken 15:20!

So what are you going for?

Coach has said he would prefer me to do the 8 first until I'm ready for a 15. Don't know why he thinks I would be ready for an 8 . Will be nice to do the 15 at the Graded and then the 8 at this meet to lay down an early season marker for both. Results from last year's meet don't look too daunting. For the lower grades anyway.

Sacksian

KielyUnusual wrote: »

So what are you going for?

Coach has said he would prefer me to do the 8 first until I'm ready for a 15. Don't know why he thinks I would be ready for an 8 . Will be nice to do the 15 at the Graded and then the 8 at this meet to lay down an early season marker for both. Results from last year's meet don't look too daunting. For the lower grades anyway.

I won't be participating, unfortunately - still a week or so away from managing 5k(-ish) pace. But I should be back for the third graded and, if not that meet, there's IMC Belfast and the National League 1st round the weekend of the 23rd/24th. May even do all three to make up for lost time!

Chivito550

Sacksian wrote: »

I won't be participating, unfortunately - still a week or so away from managing 5k(-ish) pace. But I should be back for the third graded and, if not that meet, there's IMC Belfast and the National League 1st round the weekend of the 23rd/24th. May even do all three to make up for lost time!

Just wondering do you do any strength work? Do you use weights? I find weights to be a great method for injury prevention and it's an area middle distance runners could learn from sprinters IMO. Obviously one has to ease into them of course or else more harm than good will be done.

Timmaay

Entered the 15 in the imc, hoping to do the Dublin graded 22nd also, but I'll be well and truly racing myself into shape.

pconn062

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just wondering do you do any strength work? Do you use weights? I find weights to be a great method for injury prevention and it's an area middle distance runners could learn from sprinters IMO. Obviously one has to ease into them of course or else more harm than good will be done.

Can you recommend a S+C coach? You can send by PM if you are not comfortable naming here. Have started some gym work but need a little help.

IMC meet looks great. Like Sacksian I am not going to be ready for it or any of the early graded meets. Have another slight setback this week with some peroneal pain that has come out of nowhere, them's the breaks!

Sacksian

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just wondering do you do any strength work? Do you use weights? I find weights to be a great method for injury prevention and it's an area middle distance runners could learn from sprinters IMO. Obviously one has to ease into them of course or else more harm than good will be done.

I do some body-weight strength work randomly, but probably not as much as I should. The main cause of injuries I've had was being slouched AND hunched over a laptop for most of the day, and a lifetime of bad posture. Although I didn't have any at all while training for a couple of marathons!

Might be an interesting thread to start up separately in the main forum as it's an area a lot of runners could benefit from? Presumably, there are a few people out there doing S&C work.

Chivito550

Sacksian wrote: »

I do some body-weight strength work randomly, but probably not as much as I should. The main cause of injuries I've had was being slouched AND hunched over a laptop for most of the day, and a lifetime of bad posture. Although I didn't have any at all while training for a couple of marathons!

Might be an interesting thread to start up separately in the main forum as it's an area a lot of runners could benefit from? Presumably, there are a few people out there doing S&C work.

I’m not sure what benefits there would be to doing S&C randomly, just like you wouldn’t expect much improvements if you went for a training session randomly. Structure is what leads to improvements.

What I tend to notice among a few middle distance runners here is the following:

- Run consistently well through winter, feeling hopeful of a great summer season, planning to do lots of races.

- Injury

- Fight hard to get back from injury, passing up a few races as a result until fit again.

- Run 1-2 races

- Another injury

- More fighting hard to get fit again, and salvage the season.

- Maybe another race or two by season end, but not as fast as hoped, as too much training time was lost. Nowhere near as many races as initially planned starting out.

- Start the cycle again, optimistic that by doing the same things, there will be different results the next time.

Don’t mean to be harsh, but middle distance running is tough going, and to be able to handle this training you need a strong body to be able to cope with it. Strength and Conditioning, incorporating weights should be a regular part of any middle distance runners programme. How many days, and what exercises is something that would of course be best advised by a qualified S&C coach.

PConn, unfortunately the guy who does my programmes has moved back to the UK. I’m still working with him when he comes back every couple of months, but I doubt he’d be in a position to take on clients in Ireland anymore. A pity because I would highly recommend him. He’s a sprinter himself but works with all types of runners.

Maybe ecoli would be able to advise a good S&C coach for you. He’d probably be more in the know than me.

Sacksian

Thanks for that, Chivito, and, of course, I don't do it "randomly". That wouldn't make any sense. I meant to say I do it "infrequently".

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the gym but I can't really relate to your description above regarding what you've observed among MD runners here - I've only run two track seasons and pb'ed in the last races of both, so I must be doing something right!

And, of course, a gym isn't a silver bullet for injuries.

It's an interesting argument that probably deserves a wider audience than this thread, so I've started a thread in the main forum to discuss it.

Chivito550

Sacksian wrote: »

Thanks for that, Chivito, and, of course, I don't do it "randomly". That wouldn't make any sense. I meant to say I do it "infrequently".

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the gym but I can't really relate to your description above regarding what you've observed among MD runners here - I've only run two track seasons and pb'ed in the last races of both, so I must be doing something right!

And, of course, a gym isn't a silver bullet for injuries.

It's an interesting argument that probably deserves a wider audience than this thread, so I've started a thread in the main forum to discuss it.

Yeh Its just a general thing I've noticed. I'm not saying it applies to you. But if you do find you are getting a lot of injuries then it's worth considering why, that's all. My observations are more based on people in Oz I saw in real life along with a couple of logs here.

Look at what the top 800m runners do with regards gym though. If it's good enough for them then it's good enough for you. Ignore at your peril is what I will say.

Gleedog

Just dropping my opinion on the S&C work-I've really increased the time I spend in the gym doing body weight exercises and dynamic stretching as well as a steady increase in miles and its having such a good effect for me. I've started using the squat bar for the first time a few weeks ago (under supervision) so hopefully that'll help even more.

Like, if you take my actual hard running sessions (tempos, speed etc)-they're pretty infrequent at the moment but I'm still able to bang out a decent 5k result-so I'm putting this down to miles and S&C.

Everyones different though

Chivito550

So who's running the IMC in Greystones this Saturday? I'm running the 400, my first race of the season.

Weather forecast looks absolutely muck though. About 8 degrees, with strong cold winds, and heavy rain. Hopefully it won't be as bad as predicted. The organisers are cursed with bad weather with there being 5m/s headwinds last year.

Bus strikes on Saturday will be an issue aswell but fortunately the DART goes kind of close to the track

KielyUnusual

Chivito550 wrote: »

So who's running the IMC in Greystones this Saturday? I'm running the 400, my first race of the season.

Weather forecast looks absolutely muck though. About 8 degrees, with strong cold winds, and heavy rain. Hopefully it won't be as bad as predicted. The organisers are cursed with bad weather with there being 5m/s headwinds last year.

Bus strikes on Saturday will be an issue aswell but fortunately the DART goes kind of close to the track

I'll be running the 15 on Saturday. Down for the 'B' race. Also a bit perturbed by seeing the weather forecast last night. Doesn't sound like the best day for it. Probably have more of an impact on the 400 race I'm guessing.

I'm hoping for a small improvement on my time in the Graded but that was in ideal conditions so might be hard to compare.

Will you be giving us a track status update this evening? I was down there Tuesday and looks like they have done some surfacing work. This weather is not going to help things on that front either .

Dubgal72

Chivito550 wrote: »

So who's running the IMC in Greystones this Saturday? I'm running the 400, my first race of the season.

Weather forecast looks absolutely muck though. About 8 degrees, with strong cold winds, and heavy rain. Hopefully it won't be as bad as predicted. The organisers are cursed with bad weather with there being 5m/s headwinds last year.

Bus strikes on Saturday will be an issue aswell but fortunately the DART goes kind of close to the track

KielyUnusual wrote: »

I'll be running the 15 on Saturday. Down for the 'B' race. Also a bit perturbed by seeing the weather forecast last night. Doesn't sound like the best day for it. Probably have more of an impact on the 400 race I'm guessing.

I'm hoping for a small improvement on my time in the Graded but that was in ideal conditions so might be hard to compare.

Will you be giving us a track status update this evening? I was down there Tuesday and looks like they have done some surfacing work. This weather is not going to help things on that front either .

Good luck lads, don't fancy being in your shoes on Saturday. Met Eireann is promising me clear skies over Greystones tomorrow evening for the T&F county ch'ships, I'll ask the skies to behave for ye til Sunday

Timmaay

In the A 15 here. Paced through in 61sec!!! 64s all the way would be well quick enough for me ha!

KielyUnusual

Timmaay wrote: »

In the A 15 here. Paced through in 61sec!!! 64s all the way would be well quick enough for me ha!

Sure you'd be doing fairly well at that

Timmaay

Bad day in the office today, part the reason was stupidly racing on Thursday, local fit4life mile, got in a ding dong last lap with a training rival then and had to hit the afterburner 3 times to fully shake him ha, but regardless of that, loads and loads more races and I think I should prioritise the non championship races as such, and give days like today a miss when conditions are so obviously bad. 3k at the graded on Wed still a possibility, but will be 4 races in 2wks ha.

Chivito550

Timmaay wrote: »

Bad day in the office today, part the reason was stupidly racing on Thursday, local fit4life mile, got in a ding dong last lap with a training rival then and had to hit the afterburner 3 times to fully shake him ha, but regardless of that, loads and loads more races and I think I should prioritise the non championship races as such, and give days like today a miss when conditions are so obviously bad. 3k at the graded on Wed still a possibility, but will be 4 races in 2wks ha.

Absolutely awful conditions today. Even worse for sprinters than for middle distance runners. I can take very little away from today but for the fact I've got my first race out of the way and dusted off some cobwebs.

On the plus side, some cracking shower facilities at that track. Highlight of the afternoon.

shiibata

Chivito550 wrote: »

Absolutely awful conditions today. Even worse for sprinters than for middle distance runners. I can take very little away from today but for the fact I've got my first race out of the way and dusted off some cobwebs.

On the plus side, some cracking shower facilities at that track. Highlight of the afternoon.

Was bad there today alright, pity as would have been more standards achieved I reckon.