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The Middle Distance Thread
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KielyUnusual wrote: »...some of the remaining 16
. The Greystones track is decent. As long as it doesn't absolutely lash down rain all day long like it did the last time.
Look, I'm going sub 2 on the 30th and then retiring.
Unless I'm injured. Which I always am.
The KU-Sacksian 800m head-to-head will NEVER happen!0 -
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Interesting to see that John Travers does no strength work and little or no track sessions. All just tempos and hills.
http://irishrunner.com/john-travers-qa/
I love track sessions and wouldn't give them up but I definitely think there is something to basing training around tempo work. When marathon training, I used to do a lot of tempos but they were tough, tough, tough. No better feeling than completing a good, long tempo session and hitting the required pace but no worse feeling than doing it
Similar to your point Sacksian, I think its an area of training that I'm currently lacking in. I've hit some really strong track sessions recently but I know they won't translate in to a representative race performance without the supplementary work (Hills and Tempos).
The focus this summer will be keeping a good mix of the three and also keeping the overall volume up (50-60 Miles). Will post up some detail on the planned approach once I discuss it with the coach and then we'll see how it develops over the summer
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KielyUnusual wrote: »I love track sessions and wouldn't give them up but I definitely think there is something to basing training around tempo work. When marathon training, I used to do a lot of tempos but they were tough, tough, tough. No better feeling than completing a good, long tempo session and hitting the required pace but no worse feeling than doing it
If you look at my training log over the past few years, you'll see the complete absence of any tempos and very little steady running. Even when I did the marathon, I'd say I would bin 1 in every 2 tempo. And whenever I've tried to do them again, I've had to pull the plug on most on them. I did have more success with progression runs, but could never hack x miles at y pace - even though I can then run considerably faster per mile than that in a 5k race, for example.
The discussions in Science of Running comparing characteristics and training of slow-twitch versus fast-twitch runners was an eye-opener for me. I had been doing my 800-5k training intuitively based around these ideas, but it was good to see some scientific vindication!
The basic differences were
ST runners
- able to handle faster runs,
- better at jog recovery between reps,
- able to maintain peak shape for longer,
- and a limited kick (can still be worked on),
- 1500 training, for example, would focus on strength endurance.
FT runners
- more of a natural kick (unless used to stay on pace),
- easier recovery runs,
- aerobic intervals - rather than continuous threshold running - to increase LT,
- and having to be more careful with intensity selection in aerobic training as they may miss stimulus.
- 1500 training for FT runner might emphasise speed endurance more.
At the moment, my problem is less the lack of tempos, but not enough steady running. I did a lot more steady running in marathon training though, which if I get more in now - theoretically - should provide aerobic support to my mile/5k paces, so that's what the new plan is bringing back in. The tempo/LT stuff will just be split into intervals.
It feels like I have been training for a while at essentially two paces 4:20-5:20 for 200-800 intervals + 7:40-8:40 for everything else! So, the plan is to fill in those gaps in a structured fashion.KielyUnusual wrote: »Interesting to see that John Travers does no strength work and little or no track sessions. All just tempos and hills.
http://irishrunner.com/john-travers-qa/
I don't know much about his training, other than what I've read. I've definitely seen the no S&C comment from him before, but there was an interview with him before InterClubs last year, in the 42.ie, where he said he did do strength training"His training has intensified since September and now includes two runs a day, 100 miles per week and a lot of strength and conditioning work. It’s a lifestyle rather than a job."
He also said that core work is important for the 1500m in an interview with Chivito500 for the Running Review a couple of years ago:"It is very important, I never used to think that but recently have seen it has made a big difference to my training. I do not do too much at the minute though, only about 40 minutes per week, which would be 20 minutes on Monday and 20 on Wednesday. I do all of the basics from the plank, side plank, bridging, sit ups, push ups, hip exercises, balance exercises. We do a good range."
I'd say he probably doesn't do the weight-training/lifting that some (maybe even most) of his peers do. In the same interview though, he does mention that "no speed work" idea:"I do not do any speed work with my new coach Jerry. We do not need to do it. All I need is strength training as I have proved. I do not need to work on my speed as I have it already."
I suppose part of the theory behind training like this is that, for some people, the most specific form of vo2/anaerobic training is races.
My new plan is a bit like this and it'll be strange going into my first 1500 this year, without having done this usual 20x200s, etc - I'm interested to see how it goes.
I absolutely love doing rhythm work for races, whether it's xc, marathon or mile, and I think every good performance I've had to date has been off lots of specific pace work - it would be my standard "how to improve at x distance/pace" advice: "get really comfortable biomechanically running at that pace".
But I'm just going to trust in the plan. I ran a decent 400 without any specific work two years ago and hadn't done any mile pace stuff in the weeks leading up to relays, just racing and 3k/5k stuff, so it might be possible for me.
I've been able to run decent times at 800m and 5k-6k off my own narrow race-pace approach to training, so looking forward to having the opportunity to empirically test how an alternative approach will work. Presuming I stay uninjured.0 -
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KielyUnusual wrote: »I'm out for both Greystones and the Belfast one now too
Can't believe there's only a week between them and then a big lull fixture wise after that.
Kildare Championships are in Leixlip on Sunday 15th May. Guests allowed this year.0 -
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Down for the 15 'b' on Wednesday. No idea what to expect. Last session on the track was the end of March, although I have the road relays for muscle memory!
I'll be happy with anything under 4:20, so I predict 4:19. Whatever it is, it'll be something to build on.
Stick yourself down for the 'A' and you might have some competition. I'm hoping to be pulled along to a decent time. Sub 4.15 is the aim but given I've only one 15 session under the belt, it could go any way. 0 -
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KielyUnusual wrote: »Stick yourself down for the 'A' and you might have some competition. I'm hoping to be pulled along to a decent time. Sub 4.15 is the aim but given I've only one 15 session under the belt, it could go any way.
Yea 4.18 for the opener in the end. Was very disappointed at the time but given I had 4-5 weeks of 10-20 miles previous to the race and only the one middle distance session under the belt, it was liable to go awry, as it subsequently did. Pity, as it was such a perfect evening for running and a good time for the taking if the form was there.
It was quite a hot standard in the 'A' race in the end and I finished last. Two slow laps to begin with (67/68) but then the class of the guys ahead showed and I was blown away in the last two laps. Conversely, Sacksian's race went out in 64 so I guess you can never judge a Dublin Graded race by its grade.
Last few weeks training are shown below. Getting back in to it after a bit of down time. 400s session this week were all in the 64-66 range. Progress
Week Starting Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday
02/05/2016 5.5 8 X 400 (90s) 5.5 3 X 8m (2m AR) 5.5 4 X 1k (90s) 12
09/05/2016 5.5 3 X (2 X 200 (200j)) w/ 400j b/w sets 1500m (4.18) 5.5 10.5 12 X 200 (Hills) Off
16/05/2016 5.5 8 X 400 (90s) 5.5 3 X 8m (2m AR) 5.5 WWR 12
Leg of the Wicklow Relay this week and then the 800 in the Graded next week are next up on the agenda. National's being the long term goal.
How's training going else where? What are the target's and how do you plan to get there?0 -
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Good question KU and something I have been thinking about a lot lately.
Back in the day, my warm up was pretty much the same every time: for xc, jog a lap or two of the course, stretch and strides. For track, jog around for 15 mins, stretch and strides
Now I'm doing different distances, I don't feel I can apply the same warm up routine to each distance, each requires a template, slightly tweaked.
I prefer a longer jog for cross country and 5k; 25 mins at an easy pace followed by drills, strides, minimal stretching and drills (just a couple of butt kicks and high knees while waiting to go). It all usually takes an hour in total.
Recently, I've been trying out a more thorough warm up:
- Jog of 15-20 mins, depending on activity so far that day and temperature (warmer = less jogging and much slower)
- limbering set: hip swivels, knee swivels, ankle swivels etc and arm swings
- general stretching (all short holds)
- strides, like yours 4-6, getting progressively faster. Sometimes the first two will be longer 'pick up' style
- stand up Myrtl routine
- drills
This has been leaving me really loose and fluid. It's been great when I've had the time to relax into it, you can spend an hour doing it. I'm going to try it for the first time in a pre-race setting on Tuesday; beep beep's time trial in the park. My feeling is that I should stick to a shorter jog for anything less than 5k (I remember Ronnie saying for his 800s and 1500s he wanted to conserve every ounce of energy).
5k and XC get the longest jogging and then it progressively declines again as the distances lengthen.
My clubmate could be a bit like you. She's a sub 3 marathon runner and she really only warms up after 8 miles. I've seen it myself on training runs. 8 miles, bang, she's gone
So to answer your question...I am bang in the middle of experimentation mode 0
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