The Middle Distance Thread

KielyUnusual

Date|Venue|Event|800|1500|Mile|3000|5000|DMR
20 Apr|Santry|Dub Graded|Yes|||Yes||
28 Apr|DDAC|Graded|Yes|||Yes||
30 Apr|Greystones|IMC|Yes|Yes||||
7 May|Belfast|IMC|Yes|Yes||Yes||
11 May|Tallaght|Dub Graded||Yes|||Yes|
18 May|CIT|Cork Graded|||Yes||||
19 May|DDAC|Graded||Yes|||Yes|
27 May|CIT|Cork Graded|Yes|||Yes|||
25 May|Irishtown|Dub Graded|Yes|||||
29 May|Santry|AAI Games|Yes|Yes||Yes||
2 Jun|DDAC|Graded|||Yes|||
2 Jun|Santry|Santry Mile|||Yes|||
5 Jun|TBC|Leinster Champs|Yes|Yes||Yes|Yes|
6 Jun|Tullamore|IMC|Yes|Yes||||
8 Jun|Morton|Dub Graded||Yes||||
9 Jun|CIT|Cork Graded||Yes||||
9 Jun|Santry|Santry 800m|Yes|||||
12 Jun|Various|Nat League|Yes|Yes||Yes|Yes|
17 Jun|Irishtown|IMC|Yes|Yes||||
20 Jun|CIT|Cork Graded|Yes|||Yes(F+SC)||
22 Jun|Tallaght|Dub Graded|Yes|||Yes||
25/26 Jun|Santry|Nationals|Yes|Yes||Yes(SC)|Yes|
30 Jun|DDAC|Graded|Yes|||Yes||
7 Jul|DDAC|Graded||Yes||||
12 Jul|CIT|Cork Graded||Yes||||
13 Jul|Irishtown|Dub Graded|Yes||||Yes|
14 Jul|Santry|Santry 1500m||Yes||||
17 Jul|Various|Nat League|Yes|Yes||Yes(SC)|Yes|
20 Jul|Santry|Dub Graded|Yes|||||Yes
22 Jul|Santry|Morton Games|Yes|Yes|Yes|||
25 Jul|CIT|Cork Graded|Yes|||||Yes|
30 Jul|Leixlip|IMC|Yes|Yes||||
03 Aug|Tallaght|Dub Graded||||Yes||Yes
07 Aug|Tullamore|Nat League|Yes|Yes||Yes(SC)|Yes|
21 Aug|Tullamore|Nat Masters|Yes|Yes||Yes|Yes|

Adding in Santry Mile (2 Jun), 800m (9 Jun) and 1500m (14 Jul), all part of the Clonliffe Harriers Grand Prix Series

http://clonliffeharriersac.com/grand-prix-series/

Sacksian

I try to do maybe 20-minutes worth of jogging, walking and stretches about an hour before the race, before doing some drills and strides 10 minutes ahead of the race; however many strides I think is one less than too many on that particular day (more + more energetically for 800m than 1500m): jog / break / drills / strides / race.

But I think a lot of the warm-up is psychological for me, to be honest. The most important thing is making sure I have loads of time for a warm-up, even if I don't do anything special in it - in effect, to have enough time to do as little as possible!

I'm generally pretty hyper before a race and I just need to calibrate the adrenalin. I like to be able to take my time getting there, with a walk or an easy cycle and not having to worry about being rushed while I'm getting changed, getting my number on, warming up, getting the singlet on, changing into the spikes, etc. It's always worked for me.

I'm ready to go when my stomach is flipping, my legs are bouncing and I feel like I have to choose between fainting or trying to run very quickly for a short period of time.

Obviously, this is all for 800-1500m. The shorter the distance, the more intense the warmup. For anything longer than 3000m, my warm-up is physically and psychologically a lot more relaxed.

There does seem to be a lot of variation in how different people do their strides for middle-distance. I can't remember who it was, it may have been John Travers or Ciara Mageean, but I saw them doing 200m or longer efforts at a fairly decent clip just before a race (it may even have been an 800), when everyone else is doing their traditional strides.

Here's a discussion from letsrun on warming up for 800m:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3549618

Sacksian

I was looking for other articles on warming up and came across this bit by Sebastian Coe (which seems to be fairly close to my warm-up philosophy + experience!):

I’m usually at my most nervous when I first arrive at the stadium, particularly if I have walked there from the hotel and been part of the expectant crowd looking forward to the evenings athletics.

The warm up for me has a genuine psychological effect. All the big stadiums have pretty good facilites now – grass areas away from the noise and the lights of the track – and once you are there you can dampen down the nerves. It’s good to know, once you’ve started your routine, that you have somehow got into the first act of the racing evening.

It’s a chance to get a glimpse of the other athletes. We all seem to be giving each other sideways glances, just to check who’s there. But really I’m concentrating on my own warm up, you haven’t a lot of time to look at theirs.

I think some athletes are inclined to overdo their warm up. It may be nervousness, perhaps, that doesn’t let them stop, but I’m quite sure some runners have left their best performances in the warm up area. You’ve got to remember that a warm up is designed principally to warm you up, and if you can add to that a bit of suppleness and freedom of movement there’s no need to go on flogging yourself for an hour or hour and a half. Some athletes have almost completed full training sessions by the time they walk out onto the track.

For an 800m race on a reasonably warm evening I would never need more than 35-40 minutes warming up, and only 5 or 10 minutes of that would be hard work – perhaps some fast strides and some speed drills. The sequence I use has taken shape over the years. I didn’t sit down and map it out, it has evolved gradually into its present shape and it works mentally and physically for me. It gets me to the start line warm, supple and mentally prepared to do what I’ve come to do.

It goes like this:

• Alternately walk and jog for 5 minutes
• Jog continuously at a slightly faster pace for about another 5 minutes, slipping in the odd high knee lift and little bursts of fast cadence short steps. By now I will be warm enough for stretching.
• Static stretch calves and hamstrings, slowly stretching one leg at a time by leaning forward against a wall or stanchion, with the hands and the leading leg, being ready to take the weight and control the tension, the rear leg being stretched with the heel firmly on the ground.
• Loosen the neck, shoulders and arms; combined leg and trunk stretching, by alternately placing first one straight leg and then the other, raised nearly horizontal, onto a radiator, chair or low wall, then bending the trunk forward as parallel as possible to the raised leg and placing the head on the raised knee.
• Stand legs astride with hands on hips or behind the head, and bend and rotate the trunk.
• Follow with a few half squats, remembering the static part – holding each position for 10-15 seconds. I would allow 8-10 minutes for the stretching exercises.
• Resume jogging which, as soon as any stretched feeling passes off, turns into steady running. By now I am warmed up.
• A set of four fast strides over 60m.
• Jog down for half a minute.
• The whole routine is timed to finish as close to the start of my event as possible.
• I will stay well wrapped up throughout.

Clearlier

Dubgal72 wrote: »

(I remember Ronnie saying for his 800s and 1500s he wanted to conserve every ounce of energy).

It's a great question but I don't think that there's a one size fits all answer. As a teenager I ran mostly off rugby training with the odd running session which would usually be some kind of short intervals (200m was very common) and a long run would have been 30-40 mins. I had exactly the attitude that Ronnie describes. I didn't need to warm up very much and although it was very fashionable at the time I used to avoid static stretching because it felt like I lost my edge doing it.

20+ years later I haven't played rugby for years, I rarely run intervals and 30-40 mins is a short run for me. Now I find that I need to warm up extensively if I want to be ready at the start line. I'm finding it hard to adjust mentally but all of my best races are done when I take the first couple of miles easy so when I do venture back on to the track I'm planning to do a pretty extensive warm up.

I guess I'm very much in the experimenting phase too but hopefully there's a little food for thought in the above.

KielyUnusual

Some decent looking middle distance sessions on the Irish Runner website:

http://irishrunner.com/shorter-faster-better/

KielyUnusual

Has anybody ever ran in the Clonliffe Summer Series?

They are hosting a 1500m tomorrow evening and I'm tempted to give it a go but only if the weather is decent, there's a chance that there will be somebody running close to my pace and they electronically time it. Not asking for much like

http://clonliffeharriersac.com/event/grand-prix-round-10-1500m-byrne-cup/

happygoose

I've ran in that series once (an 800) and been at one other race in the series there two years ago and they've been hand timed, and there wasn't much of a standard.

You could possibly to Drogheda tomorrow night and guest at the Louth Championships. Ivory Tower will tell you if they're electronically timed for championships. For their Graded they're not. Dunleer and D&D have some decent 1500m plus whoever else shows up as guest potentially.

IvoryTower

I just asked my couch and he said its electronically timed

Chivito550

happygoose wrote: »

I've ran in that series once (an 800) and been at one other race in the series there two years ago and they've been hand timed, and there wasn't much of a standard.

You could possibly to Drogheda tomorrow night and guest at the Louth Championships. Ivory Tower will tell you if they're electronically timed for championships. For their Graded they're not. Dunleer and D&D have some decent 1500m plus whoever else shows up as guest potentially.

Quite shocked by this. For middle distance you can get away with it, but you simply can't have sprint races not electronically timed. Manual timing is wildly inaccurate for short distances.

KielyUnusual

Thanks for that. I figured the Clonliffe event was more of a try something different event rather than one specialised for MD runners but thought I'd ask anyway. Louth Championships sound good but may be a bit of an ask travel wise. Might check out the trains going out anyway.

Oiriallach

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Might check out the trains going out anyway.

Train station is on the far side of the town. If you're coming from Dublin the bus might be a better option - either Bus ireann 100X or a Matthews bus heading to Dundalk (one via Drogheda rather than one heading direct to Dundalk - there are normally two buses leaving at the same time). Get off at the stop nearest the Lourdes Hospital on the north side of Drogheda. Matthews should be faster as they don't go into the Airport.

El Caballo

It's a very broad question but how do you train for the 800/1500? What do your guys season look like as a whole and how would you recommend structuring a year for someone like me who would probably be on the strength side of things (although still substantially lacking in that area) I used to have some decent speed which I presume is still knocking around in there somewhere but needs to be uncovered as years of no exercise followed by a tendency towards the long runs may have diminished it.

Any good reads would be welcome too but I'd love to hear what you guys think and personally do and any tips for myself would be appreciated too.

KielyUnusual

El Caballo wrote: »

It's a very broad question but how do you train for the 800/1500? What do your guys season look like as a whole and how would you recommend structuring a year for someone like me who would probably be on the strength side of things (although still substantially lacking in that area) I used to have some decent speed which I presume is still knocking around in there somewhere but needs to be uncovered as years of no exercise followed by a tendency towards the long runs may have diminished it.

Any good reads would be welcome too but I'd love to hear what you guys think and personally do and any tips for myself would be appreciated too.

I found last year that my lack of strength was a major issue and looking back there were a lot of weeks over the summer where I was running 20-30 miles, which isn't really enough in order to translate training paces in to maintaining that for the race.

When I did run my 1500 PB the summer before last, it was after making a decision to take a break from racing for 3 weeks, get the mileage up to 50-60 miles a week and then hit a few races after that.

This year I'm going all out to get very strong and I've been hitting 80-90 mile weeks very regularly and have been feeling super strong in the XC races that I have run. The basic plan is to keep this up until the end of March and then knock back the mileage to 50-60 miles a week and up the intensity in the sessions slowly, peaking 2 or 3 weeks from the Nationals then letting it all soak in for the race of my life. Sounds good on paper anyway .

Now in the Winter stage, I do a track session (handy enough), a tempo and a hill session every week with lots of double commutes on the in between days and a long run on the Sunday. I mostly take the sessions handy but will throw in 3-4 hard sessions ahead of a goal race, National Novice, Raheny 5, Ballycotton.

When it comes to the summer, we generally rotate between 800, 1500 and 3k pace sessions with the odd hill sprint session thrown in. Personally, I'll be going effort based on these and hope that the pace will increase slowly until I hit my goal pace a few weeks out from the race (whatever that turns out to be)

What's your current training like and will the focus be more the 8 or the 15?

pconn062

For me (although I am not an expert and I'm barely even a runner anymore, but I coach guys!) it is something like this:

August: Break (light jogging)

September-December: Cross country training/base training, mileage, tempos, hills, longer reps @ 5-10k pace, longer long runs, and strides done regularly at 800m/1500m pace

January-April: 3-5k specific training, basically by the end of April I want/want my athlete to be in great 5k shape. Still maintaining tempos but they are shorter, hills have been replaced with reps @ 3-10k pace, CV pace reps, no massive amount of specific 800m/1500m pace work apart from strides and 4x200m @ pace which are added at the end of most sessions.

April/May: More focus of race specific reps basically every two weeks has a 1500m session every week (for a 1500m runner, 800m session every week for the 800m guys), a 800m session every two weeks, a 3/5k session every two weeks and either a 10k pace session or a tempo run. So roughly 5 sessions every two weeks. Sessions can be replaced by early season races, but not too many and should not be taken too seriously. Long runs are still maintained but are shortened so as not to interfere with sessions. Mileage can be dropped also and recovery is key.

June/July/early August: Race!! As often as I can race or get my guys to race. Sessions are light and mostly maintenance but will touch on all the different paces listed above.

So that's roughly it, it's different ideas pulled from different places and I've had good success with it with the guys I coach (mostly 1500m/3k guys). Would love to be able to do it myself!

El Caballo

Cheers lads, some good stuff in there:). I'll get back to ye tomorrow with some q's and a's when I get a chance to digest those posts and have a little more time.

Sacksian

Whatever the distance, you* need consistency if you're going to progress. That’s not to say that you definitely will run sub 4 for the mile if you’re putting the hours in, but consistency of application definitely shortens the odds.

For me, an ideal 12-month middle distance calendar would be XC in autumn and winter, indoor/road in spring and track in summer. And staying injury-free…

As KU and PConn have said, you could design a 15 programme that - up until April - would look quite like good training for a 5k. And if you** were planning to run 15s in the summer, you should think about that. Training exclusively for the 8 looks different to what works for an 8/15; you can run a decent 800 off mileage (I ran 2.03 indoor in my only 8 last year off almost no pace work but a decent winter), but I don’t think the inverse is true: some approaches to pure 800m training can be a bit limiting if you want to run even up to 3k.

I trained more or less exclusively for the 8 a couple of summers ago and that was almost entirely built around speed endurance (200s/300s mostly). In the end, I think I overdid the sharpening too early in the summer and could have included more emphasis on both strength and on raw speed (i.e. did more either side of 800 race pace). I accidentally managed to do that after coming back from a short break that summer and got a pb in the last race of the season.

Last year, before I got injured (again), the first month of my programme - which was focused 15 training - was almost entirely threshold development and I did practically no speed work and took a decent slice off a (admittedly weak) 15 pb in my first race in early May. If I’d raced again, I’d like to think I probably would have taken a few more seconds off before the summer finished. Which suggests to me, as the others have said, that strength is critical for 15.

If you’re thinking about running middle distance in the summer, go on to Strava and look at the club runners - and you can take KU as an example here - there’s nothing complicated about the training; it’s consistency and quality.

But you can’t handle quality for any great length of time if you haven’t had consistency leading up to it. And if you can’t handle consistency, you’re unlikely to reach your potential. You just have to train (appropriately) week after week after week to achieve your goals. I would avoid following a specific programme at this stage of the season and just link in with a club/group for a few months to get some consistency in.

At the moment, I’m running just easy mileage, one steady-ish session and a long run as I come back from injury. I will run 8s and 15s this summer, but I can’t do workouts until I’ve reached an aerobic standard that will allow me to do the training I need to do. At this stage of the year, mileage will be considerably more critical than 200s to me achieving my racing goals this summer.

Mileage will decrease a little as quality increases and I'll train through non-goal races and then for the goal races, I'll do very little in the week leading up to it. However, how you taper for races is a very personal thing (good bit in Science of Running about this).

Hopefully, get out there amongst you this summer - I’m dying to see what dna_leri can do in the 8 & 15 off a winter's marathon training!

* - not you, personally
** - you, personally

pconn062

Sacksian wrote: »

Whatever the distance, you* need consistency if you're going to progress. That’s not to say that you definitely will run sub 4 for the mile if you’re putting the hours in, but consistency of application definitely shortens the odds.

For me, an ideal 12-month middle distance calendar would be XC in autumn and winter, indoor/road in spring and track in summer. And staying injury-free…

As KU and PConn have said, you could design a 15 programme that - up until April - would look quite like good training for a 5k. And if you** were planning to run 15s in the summer, you should think about that. Training exclusively for the 8 looks different to what works for an 8/15; you can run a decent 800 off mileage (I ran 2.03 indoor in my only 8 last year off almost no pace work but a decent winter), but I don’t think the inverse is true: some approaches to pure 800m training can be a bit limiting if you want to run even up to 3k.

I trained more or less exclusively for the 8 a couple of summers ago and that was almost entirely built around speed endurance (200s/300s mostly). In the end, I think I overdid the sharpening too early in the summer and could have included more emphasis on both strength and on raw speed (i.e. did more either side of 800 race pace). I accidentally managed to do that after coming back from a short break that summer and got a pb in the last race of the season.

Last year, before I got injured (again), the first month of my programme - which was focused 15 training - was almost entirely threshold development and I did practically no speed work and took a decent slice off a (admittedly weak) 15 pb in my first race in early May. If I’d raced again, I’d like to think I probably would have taken a few more seconds off before the summer finished. Which suggests to me, as the others have said, that strength is critical for 15.

If you’re thinking about running middle distance in the summer, go on to Strava and look at the club runners - and you can take KU as an example here - there’s nothing complicated about the training; it’s consistency and quality.

But you can’t handle quality for any great length of time if you haven’t had consistency leading up to it. And if you can’t handle consistency, you’re unlikely to reach your potential. You just have to train (appropriately) week after week after week to achieve your goals. I would avoid following a specific programme at this stage of the season and just link in with a club/group for a few months to get some consistency in.

At the moment, I’m running just easy mileage, one steady-ish session and a long run as I come back from injury. I will run 8s and 15s this summer, but I can’t do workouts until I’ve reached an aerobic standard that will allow me to do the training I need to do. At this stage of the year, mileage will be considerably more critical than 200s to me achieving my racing goals this summer.

Mileage will decrease a little as quality increases and I'll train through non-goal races and then for the goal races, I'll do very little in the week leading up to it. However, how you taper for races is a very personal thing (good bit in Science of Running about this).

Hopefully, get out there amongst you this summer - I’m dying to see what dna_leri can do in the 8 & 15 off a winter's marathon training!

* - not you, personally
** - you, personally

Agree with all of this, especially the part about consistency being the most important factor above all else. The plan I posted above is the ideal plan I would use for a 1500m/3k runner who is robust and I have had good success with it for the last few years with a number of guys. Personally however I couldn't handle that plan as it's too intense for me. That's why knowing your strengths (and more importantly, weaknesses) is key and building a plan to your own unique specifications will bring the most success. My own plan for this year is just to try and get steady consistent mileage in (which is proving very difficult) and if I can do that until May I will start worrying about some speedier work.

dna_leri

The great thing about middle distance training is that there is not one way correct to approach it and you may not find out the best way until you have tried and failed.
 
My middle distance training up to now has been more 400/800 than 800/1500. I have tried to peak twice a year for indoors and outdoors. My best times are indoors which may be because that suited me best or may be due to trying (and failing) to peak twice. I do actually enjoy indoors more.
 
My first indoor season (2012) came off the back of a 10K PB the previous autumn and I was disappointed to only run 2:12. My best season was a year later, when I hit 2:02 in the 800m. In the lead up to that I was doing a weekly (600m) speed endurance session and a tempo run alternating with 1K intervals, followed by about 6 weeks of speed work (all documented in my dusty log somewhere).
 
I never hit those times since, even when I fairly closely followed the same training, thus proving that even when you apply the same inputs or stimulus, you will not necessarily get the same outputs. That is probably because the person who followed that training plan the first time was different to the person who tried it the 2nd time i.e. I had changed so the same plan was not going to get the same results.
 
Since then I have mostly followed a modified  form of Magness 800m training - 8wk base period which includes 60m sprints and 12 mile long runs; 5wks pre-competition work at paces from 400m to 3K and still plenty of miles (which I was shy on) and followed by 8 weeks competition period mostly at 400-mile race pace. This was a 21 week cycle so could be repeated twice a year. Personally I like the Magness approach but it might not suit everyone.
 
Last year I took time out to tick the marathon box so as I now return to track, it is an interesting experiment to see how much pace I have lost and how much endurance I have gained. Of course age is also a factor - it is harder to gain muscle as we age. Again I am following a modified version of a Magness plan but I am not looking to peak until indoor season 2018.

This indoor season I will just do 1 or 2 races and probably an outdoor 5K and then build again for the summer. I know I have lost some speed but my aerobic recovery is good so I am trying to work on getting the right balance. I think that's what it's all about for middle distance - the right balance between speed and endurance for each individual at that time.

adrian522

400-mile race pace.

There's middle distance and then there are crazy long distances.

Sacksian

It's still a couple of months to road relays, so I don't know why I'm tempting fate like this, but already thinking about summer...

http://dublinathletics.com/attachments/article/453/Graded%202017.pdf

Looks pretty much like last year, starts with a 3000m & 800m, followed by 1500m & 5000m. And IMC Races are:

Sat 6th May Greystones AC meet with IMC
Sat 27th May The Bertie Quinn T & F , Tullamore
Sat 10th June, GV Ryan with Crusaders Ac and IMC
Sat 24th June The Belfast Irish Milers International with Beechmount Harriers
Wed 12th July IMC at the Morton Games
​Sat 15th July Le Cheile International, Leixlip

All going well, I might skip the graded in favour of the IMC for 8s & 15s and maybe use them to do a 3000m or even some 400s!

KielyUnusual

Wow, that is pretty early to have the schedule out. So many races, so little time. I'll probably concentrate on the 15s in the IMCs as well and maybe skip any of the Tallaght meets as they are really awkward to get to for a non driver like myself.

Pity, they haven't brought back the mile in the Gradeds. So little opportunities these days to run one.

God, its still ages away though.

clear thinking

Great to have that out so early and be able to plan, nothing beats track in summer even if its a D race...

El Caballo

The season is still young but how is everyone progressing so far? How has training gone, any races done and what are your plans for the rest of the year?

Murph_D

El Caballo wrote: »

The season is still young but how is everyone progressing so far? How has training gone, any races done and what are your plans for the rest of the year?

I've dabbled a little, running one of the Phoenix Park paced miles off a mini-training block of 6 weeks, getting in two sessions and a long run every 9 days. A gentle enough introduction, designed with age, recovery, and inexperience in mind. The result was a 5:54 (ish) mile, representing a 13-sec (ish) PB. I say 'ish' because the timing was a bit suspect, but I'm confident it was under 6 mins, which was the modest enough goal.

Mut say I enjoyed the sessions - plenty of 4x200x3, 4x400x2, 4x800 etc. A different focus, and I hope to do a longer, more traditional approach next year.

Wottle

Have a 1 mile race coming up in 3 weeks, the goal will be to try sneak under 6.
Haven't done much in the line of speed work but will try get a few 400 reps in this week and next.

Timmaay

http://deadspin.com/an-exercise-physiologist-explains-why-800-meters-hurts-1694552448

Long but a good read!

Maars

Timmaay wrote: »

http://deadspin.com/an-exercise-physiologist-explains-why-800-meters-hurts-1694552448

Long but a good read!

Fun read, but the understanding of energy system contribution is backwards..

Here:
"Aerobic respiration was doing the trick for about 300 meters but greedy muscles demanded more energy than the available oxygen could process, so they turned to anaerobic respiration to burn fuel."

And here
"putting off anaerobic respiration, which is a short-term fix to energy demands, as long as possible. "


You don't delay anaerobic respiration. The second half of the 800 is the aerobic-dominant part.

vanderlyle

Interview with Sean Tobin

https://www.fastrunning.com/running-athletics-news/ireland/sean-tobin-i-would-love-to-see-the-mile-replace-the-1500m-at-the-world-championships/8703

Sacksian

IMC 2019 calendar is out. Interesting to see that the IMC element of the Morton Games is gone and that there's a new fixture in Drogheda, which will probably be quite a big meet. I was actually hoping the IMC would take over the mid-distance programme for the AAI Games, but that seems to have moved to June (again same weekend as Belfast IMC).

Sat 4th May Greystones (tbc)
Sat 18th May GV Ryan with Crusaders Ac and IMC
Sat 8th June Le Chéile International, Leixlip
Sat 22nd June The Belfast Irish Milers International with Beechmount Harriers
Sat 13th July IMC w/ Drogheda
​

IvoryTower

Delighted it's coming to Drogheda, now to get fit enough to run in it..