The Tipperary GAA (Club and intercounty) Discussion thread 2014

Moyorris

Would there be any point in having 2 teams in the County,to involve more players.
In other words,a Tipp North Selection and a Mid/South/West Selection,who would play each other in Training.It might uncover some new players,like Underdogs did Donaghy for Kerry.

hinault

Xenophile wrote: »

All said and done it was a great year for Tipperary Hurling, so thanks to all involved, spectators, supporters, management and most of all the lads wearing the Blue and Gold on the field and on the bench.

Yes, despite not winning the replay I think Tipperary can take a hell of a lot out of this season. The improvement has been excellent this season.

I think O'Shea is building a team that is starting to go places. Incremental improvement. I think though next season will be decisive. O'Shea has got his team to the All Ireland final. His team needs to win an All Ireland to push that improvement along. Easier said than done of course.

Moyorris

Moyorris wrote: »

Would there be any point in having 2 teams in the County,to involve more players.
In other words,a Tipp North Selection and a Mid/South/West Selection,who would play each other in Training.It might uncover some new players,like Underdogs did Donaghy for Kerry.

That might'nt be a bad idea at all. There could be hidden gems in small clubs in the West and South that are being overlooked. Being loyal to the status quo is all very noble and all but were a massive county and I think that we're fairly under utilised. I mean none of Clonmel, Carrick, and Tipperary Town have anyone challenging for spots on the panel. This really needs to be looked at. Competition really needs to be intensified within the County. Having a settled squad is fine but those players should have to fight tooth and nail for their spots. Now our lads have done really well this year but we really need to keep squeezing that extra 10% out because we're not far off.

Brian Cody told his players last winter that they were fighting for the right to wear the black and amber of Kilkenny in 2014. Over 60 players were tried out. Every one faced uncertainty including some of the greats of the game with their pockets stuffed with Celtic crosses. The man is cold and ruthless (in sporting terms) and as a result he stands tonight as a champion for the tenth time as Kilkenny manager in 15 years and 16 seasons of management.

realdanbreen

realdanbreen wrote: »

A faiir assessment and like you say the finer or simpler things let us down again. We need to be as determined and concentrated as kk are. As in the limerick game and periods of the galway game we seem to be waiting for things to happen rather than grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck. Another thing we need to do is have the co board sit down with EOS and his selectors and give them a long term,5or6 year term of office. This thing of changing managers every few years has to stop. Anyway, another winter lies ahead listening to the Cats rubbing it in.

Totally agree with the whole area of managerial stability. Such a pity Sheedy left in 2010 because he placed such emphasis on work rate. All of a sudden we went from a winter of being All Ireland champions to one of uncertainty regarding who would take the job.

Tommy and Declan just hadnt the knowledge or experience to bring to table. Id back O'Shea to get more time but i think he needs to really learn from the mistakes he made this year. There was several moments of indecisiveness and a few puzzling decisions throughout the year. He seemed uncertain of his personnel beyond his starting fifteen and yesterday i felt he was devoid of a plan B.

evolving tipperary

I think winning something is essential - preferably in championship - munster or the all-ireland. Huge strides this year - in terms of attitude, fortitude and hurling.
The problem with this game plan when you have so many stick men is you need everything to go right - still a decision to make regarding four stylists - seamus and bubbles are two to build around - we need to move on from Noel and Lar - they can be great Subs now - but unless Noel can find his 2010 form he shouldn't be on the team - we need four tanks alongside bubbles and callinan - to work a defence and be able to get up and win ball. Athletes like Niall o'Meara, John McGRATH (maybe) - liam mcgrath too similar to noel (good sub though) - Colin O'Riordan maybe, John Meagher in defence - might be a case for trying Brendan Maher in the forwards -

Maybe Connor Kenny, or Seamus Kenny or someone can come out of nowhere and bring something to it -

Some of the comments on the match are misplaced...To criticize O'Shea i find baffling regarding subs - same thing all year really - he got the most out of Seamie and a lot of other players grew under him - we lacked cleverness in the forwards- taking the point - engineering a free, and using the short grip was lacking at times - but that's all fine and dandy when some of the greatest defenders who ever played are breathing down your neck continually

I do have one gripe - but its not very moral - i just felt that when kk continually beat us in teh forwards in the second half to ball - someone might break a hurl or start a scrap - anything to try and break the trend of fast ball coming out - but no...but it's hardly a fair criticism

a lot of lads had a go at Darren Gleeson and O'Shea on this forum and need to pull their heads in!!!! The great hurlers on the ditch!!!!
I had a right go at Shane McgRATH AT TIMES THIS YEAR and he delivered big time at the business end of the season. Good for him.
we need continuity more than any thing now in terms of management - but i would like to see at least one of Eddie Enright, Mark O'Leary or William Maher as selectors or coaching in some capacity with a view to learning their intercouty trade and building a relationship with players they will take over from...I'd like to see O'Shea get a 2 or 3 year extension so everyone knows where they stand

evolving tipperary

What decisions?

What plan b should he have enacted?

DT100

evolving tipperary wrote: »

I think winning something is essential - preferably in championship - munster or the all-ireland. Huge strides this year - in terms of attitude, fortitude and hurling.
The problem with this game plan when you have so many stick men is you need everything to go right - still a decision to make regarding four stylists - seamus and bubbles are two to build around - we need to move on from Noel and Lar - they can be great Subs now - but unless Noel can find his 2010 form he shouldn't be on the team - we need four tanks alongside bubbles and callinan - to work a defence and be able to get up and win ball. Athletes like Niall o'Meara, John McGRATH (maybe) - liam mcgrath too similar to noel (good sub though) - Colin O'Riordan maybe, John Meagher in defence - might be a case for trying Brendan Maher in the forwards -

Maybe Connor Kenny, or Seamus Kenny or someone can come out of nowhere and bring something to it -

Some of the comments on the match are misplaced...To criticize O'Shea i find baffling regarding subs - same thing all year really - he got the most out of Seamie and a lot of other players grew under him - we lacked cleverness in the forwards- taking the point - engineering a free, and using the short grip was lacking at times - but that's all fine and dandy when some of the greatest defenders who ever played are breathing down your neck continually

I do have one gripe - but its not very moral - i just felt that when kk continually beat us in teh forwards in the second half to ball - someone might break a hurl or start a scrap - anything to try and break the trend of fast ball coming out - but no...but it's hardly a fair criticism

a lot of lads had a go at Darren Gleeson and O'Shea on this forum and need to pull their heads in!!!! The great hurlers on the ditch!!!!
I had a right go at Shane McgRATH AT TIMES THIS YEAR and he delivered big time at the business end of the season. Good for him.
we need continuity more than any thing now in terms of management - but i would like to see at least one of Eddie Enright, Mark O'Leary or William Maher as selectors or coaching in some capacity with a view to learning their intercouty trade and building a relationship with players they will take over from...I'd like to see O'Shea get a 2 or 3 year extension so everyone knows where they stand

So the manager should have told them "If Kilkenny are beating ye to the ball,start a scrap or break a hurl"?:D

tippspur

Devastated today after that result in Croke park yesterday.if we were beaten by any other County I could take it a bit better but to lose to the cats yet again is very hard to stomach.

evolving tipperary

evolving tipperary wrote: »

What decisions?

What plan b should he have enacted?

Bringing Eoin Kelly on for starters in the drawn game was insanity when Kilkenny were on the ropes. It was a complete waste of a sub. Kelly was a wonderful player but unfortunately his time is long gone. Whatever about having him around the panel as a leader, to bring him on in a game of such magnitude when the game was in the melting pot was beyond ludicrous.

I felt Denis Maher was treated shabbily this year too to be honest. Take the league final. He scored two points off Cillian Buckley and gave him a torrid time. He was taken off and Buckley stormed into the game. For the drawn final and replay Buckley was one of Kilkenny's stand out players. Now i dont mean to be harsh on Gar i realise he does work very hard and has great mobility but he doesnt offer that scoring threat. There's a bit more hurling in Maher. That said Maher even fell down the pecking order on the bench

Although id have left Gar on before Noel yesterday. Perhaps have both Maher and Gar on the field. Maher under the high ball and Gar sweeping up the breaks perhaps?

As for plan B, well yesterday his subs came too late. When Kilkenny got the third unanswered point was the time to spring Cahill from the bench. Forde and Bourke were given far too little time to settle into the game too. I do see the sense in O'Mahony given that Kilkenny were piercing right through us but 64th minute was a bit late in the day after conceding two goals.

We have a good bedrock going forward but it will be worth nothing if management dont take stock and address where we possibly went wrong

tippspur

tippspur wrote: »

Devastated today after that result in Croke park yesterday.if we were beaten by any other County I could take it a bit better but to lose to the cats yet again is very hard to stomach.

Given that they are right on my doorstep its pretty galling but putting rivalry to one side for a moment, we were beaten by an exceptional side who leave no stone unturned and leave very little margin for error against them.

But i just get the niggling feeling that despite their excellent display that we could have done more. Got an extra 10% from our performance.

evolving tipperary

Not exactly - but It should be within players at times to be so frustrated that this happens...maybe other teams do it in sport - break another teams rhythm - go down injured, put in a rough tackle...cause the flow of the game to halt...

Xenophile

Xenophile wrote: »

All said and done it was a great year for Tipperary Hurling, so thanks to all involved, spectators, supporters, management and most of all the lads wearing the Blue and Gold on the field and on the bench.

One thing strikes me and I hope you see this as constructive comment.............Patrick Bonnar Maher runs into too many cul de sacs and is unable to get the ball away. I wonder has he ever practiced using the boot a guy with his strenght could kick goals from way out with a bit of practice.

Anyway well done to Bonnar for adding excitement to the season, his bravery and commitment are beyond question, he has been bottled up by KK backs so many times, I think we need to try his footballing skills too, and if we do I am sure he will score more goals.

Well done to Kilkenny you were the best on the day !

And there is another aspect of the game we are falling short in. Our forwards are too slow to get up and support their men. Kilkenny players swarmed a Tipp forward on several occasions and no one reacted quick enough to get up and support him.

evolving tipperary

Kelly is kelly - he was trying to settle the shi[ - jason forde also came on and got a point - did not tipp recue it and finish the stronger?


Denis Maher does not the pace for that type of game...the pace of that game was light years away from the League you highlight...The only way I can see Denis Maher playing 70 for tipp is as a stand up full forward - but he is a player which does not suit the O'Shea blue print.... be interesting to see where and if he gets a run at ful next year - i think O'Riordan will be given a run at wing forward

Gar hit an mount of ball in yesterday and it just kept coming back out...

For me a plan B would involve a different tactics of playing - a different formation - like when KK tart winning everything overhead - Gleeson had to go short...subs coming on earlier is hardly a plan b - but O'Shea has shown all year he is about giving players faith and confidence....early subs is not part of that I'd imagine...he has spent a long time rebuilding confidence

evolving tipperary

This is tough to read:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/devastated-tipperary-team-already-thinking-of-2015-1.1944623?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

evolving tipperary

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Kelly is kelly - he was trying to settle the shi[ - jason forde also came on and got a point - did not tipp recue it and finish the stronger?


Denis Maher does not the pace for that type of game...the pace of that game was light years away from the League you highlight...The only way I can see Denis Maher playing 70 for tipp is as a stand up full forward - but he is a player which does not suit the O'Shea blue print.... be interesting to see where and if he gets a run at ful next year - i think O'Riordan will be given a run at wing forward

Gar hit an mount of ball in yesterday and it just kept coming back out...

For me a plan B would involve a different tactics of playing - a different formation - like when KK tart winning everything overhead - Gleeson had to go short...subs coming on earlier is hardly a plan b - but O'Shea has shown all year he is about giving players faith and confidence....early subs is not part of that I'd imagine...he has spent a long time rebuilding confidence

Your being very harsh on Maher. Every game he played for us in the league against Cork, Clare and Kilkenny he done exceptionally well and was then dropped for the Limerick game. He is never going to prove himself without being given a chance and I dont agree that he lacks pace either. From what i see he is very willing to take on his man. Any cameo he made in the championship he made alot of turnovers and always has the paw up for the option of the puckout. thats the type of fearless player we need on the 40

We were getting annihilated in the early stages of the second half and O'Shea waited too long to react. All very noble having faith but the history books will read 'Tipperary, 2014 All Ireland runners up' whereas Brian Cody who grasped the nettle and made changes now celebrates number 10. I cant blame the management too much though, i think our forwards need to offer each other more support. One man at a time taking on three Kilkenny defenders is unacceptable.

As for tactics and formations, perhaps if Lar swapped with Bonnar to start with it could have been worth a try. Lar won the ball in the buildup to the goal out near the 40. Maybe we should have tried a third midfielder to curb Fennelly's influence or just leave Callanan inside on his own and have one extra man drop off for the puckout. The danger is you could fall into the trap of Dublin then who left Tyrell all on his own.

evolving tipperary

Not really - It's only the league....I don't think he played exceptionally well? How do we define exceptionally well? Five points from play, three over head catches, and dominance of a marker? up and down the field like a yo yo? He is very slow. It's a huge weakness he has and that's just it. It's plain to see...

He just does not fit the O'Shea blue print of movement and pace....be interesting to see what happens with him next year - can't see Seamie being freed from Full forward....he does play a two man full forward lin next year - maybe Denis can fit in there - but his work rate would need to improve....going on his Thurles efforts - I think your over selling him - O'Meara looked a better option - more dynamic - but issues of injury arose for whatever reason...

Cody was pilloried in the first game for making no changes - he was just about to take off larkin when he scored a point and the stopped the substitution - you're clamoring for reasons for Maher to come on - because you like him as a player - no problem with that - maybe your a thurles man - no problem with that either - but I just don't agree - don't see the evidence - League is not enough - he came on against Limerick and dropped some nice opportunities short or wide...- came on against Dublin was good - but I mean other players won that game...to make that team you'd need to be putting up some performance - as he is not a work horse he'd be competing with scoring forwards....I would say his best bet is for the full forward line...but i don't think o'shea likes that type of player for the full line....

The really scary thing is....KK will probably be better next year...looking at the different players coming through...

But, listen, I can't how management can be blamed for anything....we were short in the forwards the last day - kk responded to all the criticism - but that said there was huge improvement in our forwards this year from the previous years....

evolving tipperary

The Sunday Game team of the year:
Darren Gleeson (Tipperary); Paul Murphy (Kilkenny), JJ Delaney (Kilkenny), Seamus Hickey (Limerick); Brendan Maher (Tipperary), Padraic Maher (Tipperary), Cillian Buckley (Kilkenny); Richie Hogan (Kilkenny), Conor Fogarty (Kilkenny); TJ Reid (Kilkenny), Patrick 'Bonnar' Maher (Tipperary), John O'Dwyer (Tipperary); Colin Fennelly (Kilkenny), Seamus Callinan (Tipperary), Shane Dowling (Limerick).

what do people think of that?

evolving tipperary

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Not really - It's only the league....I don't think he played exceptionally well? How do we define exceptionally well? Five points from play, three over head catches, and dominance of a marker? up and down the field like a yo yo? He is very slow. It's a huge weakness he has and that's just it. It's plain to see...

He just does not fit the O'Shea blue print of movement and pace....be interesting to see what happens with him next year - can't see Seamie being freed from Full forward....he does play a two man full forward lin next year - maybe Denis can fit in there - but his work rate would need to improve....going on his Thurles efforts - I think your over selling him - O'Meara looked a better option - more dynamic - but issues of injury arose for whatever reason...

Cody was pilloried in the first game for making no changes - he was just about to take off larkin when he scored a point and the stopped the substitution - you're clamoring for reasons for Maher to come on - because you like him as a player - no problem with that - maybe your a thurles man - no problem with that either - but I just don't agree - don't see the evidence - League is not enough - he came on against Limerick and dropped some nice opportunities short or wide...- came on against Dublin was good - but I mean other players won that game...to make that team you'd need to be putting up some performance - as he is not a work horse he'd be competing with scoring forwards....I would say his best bet is for the full forward line...but i don't think o'shea likes that type of player for the full line....

The really scary thing is....KK will probably be better next year...looking at the different players coming through...

But, listen, I can't how management can be blamed for anything....we were short in the forwards the last day - kk responded to all the criticism - but that said there was huge improvement in our forwards this year from the previous years....

Fair enough we'll have to agree to disagree. Im not a Thurles man im actually from South Tipp. You say Maher hasnt the pace and movement for O'shea's blueprint but then why bring on Eoin Kelly the last day? Ive great time for the man he is one of the greatest forwards, if not the greatest that we have ever had but his time is long gone tbh. No problem with him on the panel as such as the potential was there for him to get one last medal. It would have been fantastic but sadly two will have to do.

We'll have to agree to diasgree on the management issue too. Just cant help feeling Eamon waited too long to make a change yesterday and maybe should have looked to bring Lar into the game a bit more. Callanan actually done well on scraps too.

Overall though, many positives to be taken and i back the management 100% to get us over the line next year. We're just going to have to wait an extra 344 days until number 27 arrives

evolving tipperary

evolving tipperary wrote: »

The Sunday Game team of the year:
Darren Gleeson (Tipperary); Paul Murphy (Kilkenny), JJ Delaney (Kilkenny), Seamus Hickey (Limerick); Brendan Maher (Tipperary), Padraic Maher (Tipperary), Cillian Buckley (Kilkenny); Richie Hogan (Kilkenny), Conor Fogarty (Kilkenny); TJ Reid (Kilkenny), Patrick 'Bonnar' Maher (Tipperary), John O'Dwyer (Tipperary); Colin Fennelly (Kilkenny), Seamus Callinan (Tipperary), Shane Dowling (Limerick).

what do people think of that?

That right full back slot was a real conundrum between Paul Murphy and Cathal Barrett and to be fair the goalkeeper issue wasn't cut and thrust either. Both Murphy and Gleeson made great cases. Gleeson probably shaded it for the fact he was constant on the team whereas Murphy was dislodged by Herity at one stage. No real issue with that team though to be honest. There will be lads on the fringes that people will make a case for but you cant pick them all unfortunately.

evolving tipperary

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/stapleton-tipp-will-kick-on-289048.html

Stapleton's take on events

evolving tipperary

A bit of light relief:

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2014/09/29/brian-cody-accused-of-grooming-children-as-young-as-5-for-hurling/

evolving tipperary

I think if O'Shea can improve as much as he from year 1 to year 2 in year 3 - he will be a massive manager...

Another factor - I suppose - as I know myself working in the same university - Once September hits O'Shea would have been very very very busy - no matter how people covered for him...

Whereas Cody is a retired principal...now that's an advantage...

tippspur

evolving tipperary wrote: »

The Sunday Game team of the year:
Darren Gleeson (Tipperary); Paul Murphy (Kilkenny), JJ Delaney (Kilkenny), Seamus Hickey (Limerick); Brendan Maher (Tipperary), Padraic Maher (Tipperary), Cillian Buckley (Kilkenny); Richie Hogan (Kilkenny), Conor Fogarty (Kilkenny); TJ Reid (Kilkenny), Patrick 'Bonnar' Maher (Tipperary), John O'Dwyer (Tipperary); Colin Fennelly (Kilkenny), Seamus Callinan (Tipperary), Shane Dowling (Limerick).

what do people think of that?

l Would agree with Gleeson before Murphy,Shane Mc Grath should be in before Fogarty,as good as Barret was for us Paul Murphy is a brilliant corner back.

evolving tipperary

evolving tipperary wrote: »

I think if O'Shea can improve as much as he from year 1 to year 2 in year 3 - he will be a massive manager...

Another factor - I suppose - as I know myself working in the same university - Once September hits O'Shea would have been very very very busy - no matter how people covered for him...

Whereas Cody is a retired principal...now that's an advantage...

I wouldn't doubt that tbh. Eamon lives and works in Galway which is a fair aul trek to Thurles. Even when Cody was teaching he was teaching in Kilkenny where he is originally from and lives today. I think they use a few floodlit pitches around the county during the winter and one of them would be Ballyragget (20 mins out the n77 to Portlaoise). During the long evenings then all match prep training is done in Nowlan.

Kilkenny in general is ideally situated. Nice and compact with the city right near the centre of the county. Now that's certainly not the only reason they won on Saturday but these are cornerstones which are set nicely for them in terms of building success on success.

The structure in Kilkenny is ideal too. You have a Unitarian structure with the county board overseeing all of the 36 clubs.

Given the longitudinal nature of our county we have a federal structure which can prove highly problematic with certain issues arising here and there. You have the central county board who have devolved powers to 4 separate divisions and in terms of implementing reform to competitions and development there is alot of time, lobbying, and hassle involved.

With a federal structure, people tend to think that its a simple case of divide and conquer but unfortunately its probably done us more harm then good. When you give devolve too much power and influence from the central council, then its very hard to plan and change any inefficiencies within. Take the club championship. The Tipp Co board wanted to trim it by 8, but the clubs who with united under the respective divisional banners only compromised on four in the end over 4 years. Truth be told we should only have 16 at the top elite level and even then you might only have a small number of teams realistically out of those 16 that can stake a claim for Dan Breen.

Kilkenny to be fair is a predominantly rural county but we are also a predominantly rural county which is longer from northern most part to southern most part with bad roads and long distances to travel for some players and management. You cant change Geography or infrastructure.

Now i'm not giving any excuses by any means but thinking about it, we do face many challenges as a county year on year. Employment is scarce when you compare it to our larger urban cities like Cork, Dublin, Galway and Limerick so its understandably difficult to keep lads within the county.

evolving tipperary

Over stepped the mark there - just shows you the mindset

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/hurling/gaa-may-ask-cody-to-explain-scathing-attack-on-ref-kelly-289266.html

evolving tipperary

I feared this - i don't know how he does it tbh -

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/tipperary-fret-over-possible-o-shea-exit-1.1945827

farmerval

If EOS were to step down, who would replace him?

He did well this year after a very shakey start. In the early league games we looked totally clueless, our defending in the Clare game was juvenile almost, so top turn that around was a great achievement.
Whether EOS's philosophy will be enough to get an all-Ireland I am not sure. For a team relying on speed and movement in our forward line we needed half backs and a midfield who could paly in quick early ball, yet our half backs and midfield carried the ball a lot. Actually I think the scoring exploits from midfield may have masked other deficiencies there.

mollymaloney

If we had John Meagher from Loughmore at centre back, Ml Breen from Ballina at full back and Colin O Riordan from Templemore at midfield, I think we would have serious additions to our team. I also like the style and skill of Ronan Maher. It's only since his retirement that I can see the loss that Declan Fanning is. We need backs that can attack the ball with confidence. There are very few Kilkenny forwards who will not make use of the ball once they have it in their hand,-- either a score, a free or a pass.

evolving tipperary

Well - he has to play the cards he's dealt....and so will any other manager...

Whether we have the players coming through or not - I don't know...

Is Padraic Maher a center back? Are we robbing Peter to pay Paul by putting Barry in Full-back - he could well develop into a top full back with experience. He did a good job there. Will John Meagher get over his injury issues - can he do a job center back or full back?
Should Brendan Maher be asked to play wing forward? Can O'Riordan make the step up?

It's very hard to be hard on the team - they were so close - but it's a very tough pill to swallow. And now O'Shea might leave...
If he does - what will happen to Seamie's form? Or has he turned the corner regardless...

One thing is for sure - is that KK will be better - they have fantastic players coming through...in all positions

I have to say i couldnt think of anyone that could come in and manage us for 2015 if O'Shea was to leave. EOS has his flaws but he is certainly undoubtedly the very best we have in terms of getting the most out of players. Nicky English maybe or Liam Sheedy would be the stand out candidates but would they even want it?

Perhaps its time to consider Michael Ryan for the hotseat if he was interested alongside Paudie O'Neill to keep the continuity. Of course, EOS may not step down yet but to be honest im sort of bracing myself for it.