The Tipperary GAA (Club and intercounty) Discussion thread 2014

evolving tipperary

Yes, that's my part of my point...
"EOS taking time away doesn't affect his ruthlessness as a coach. He took time off as the coach as it wasn't possible to combine his personal family life, his professional life and role as coach." - that's my point too...
Cody would never be in a position where that would affect his hurling - never - the man attends under 12 and 14 games...

You seem to be perturbed that Sheedy is not ruthless nor is O'Shea. Because, well, there not. And you have given me no illustrations of their ruthlessness...

Have a look at these:

http://balls.ie/gaa/brian-cody-ruthlessness-top-5/

http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/carter-wont-forgive-cody-wont-comment-25956716.html

See, also Davy's stance on the football issue

Ger Loughnane's documented bullying of players into winning an all-ireland. You guys don't seem to getting at what I'm suggesting... or just willfully ignoring it - honing in on criticism of managers for some reason!!!!


One little incident from the book sums up its limitations. After a major defeat Cody hinted to the players that he may not be continuing. Later in the car park he was approached by three of the players who pleaded with him not to resign. He was, of course, chuffed and stayed on but he refuses to name the three players. Why? Because, he says, the dressing room stuff is sacrosanct. And there in a nutshell you have the flaw in this book. Too much is sacrosanct and kept hidden.

digzy

Et

I've read your last few posts and I still don't know the point you're making. Do you even know yourself at this stage?

The essence I think is that the 'ruthless managers' do bugger all else because they're so dedicated to their hurling job. Perhaps you're confusing ruthless and dedicated?

As regards ruthless.... People say Cody is ruthless in terms of the changes he makes to the team. Tbf look at the options he has. I heard an ex kk player say on newstalk last Monday how Cody won't pick a fwd unless he can win his own ball. Can a tipp mgmt irrespective of who it is, drop the lads who don't do this? I don't think so. Eos can't admit it but if he'd better options would he be persisting with lar? I doubt it. Would he persist with gar ryan either? D maher was first sub most of the summer but I didn't see much from him in the small amt of time I've seen him play.

It's easy for Cody be ruthless when he can bring in Walsh and Joyce into a half back line. Who can we bring in to our backs where there's injury or loss of form except Cahill?

If it's 'dedication' you're referring to I'd have to disagree with you. I can't say for certain but I sincerely doubt eos spends less time with the players than Cody or any other inter county manager. Each side have similar physical regimes too I'd imagine. In any case any team only train a certain number of occasions per week. No point in flogging them, a happy medium has to be found.

If you were to take your argument to its conclusion the players basically shouldn't work or have part time jobs so that they can dedicate themselves to the game? Which is actually true, but the kk lads have other commitments also. I doubt our lads are any less dedicated due to outside work/ study commitments

evolving tipperary

All nonsense - didn't understand a thing written. Waste of time!!!!

These things you've summed up that I've said - can you quote them? So I can try an understand what you're thinking.

What you've summed bears no relation to any of my points. But, thanks anyway!

digzy

evolving tipperary wrote: »

All nonsense - didn't understand a thing written. Waste of time!!!!

These things you've summed up that I've said - can you quote them? So I can try an understand what you're thinking.

What you've summed bears no relation to any of my points. But, thanks anyway!

Could you sum up your argument in about 4 lines so I can understand it, as opposed to endless paragraphs with numerous links to newspaper articles? Doesn't appear anyone else hear follows your drift either.

While you're at it where's the nonsense ?

evolving tipperary

Ruthless is an attitude for the most part - there is no deviation from winning. There is nothing in between winning and losing. In fact, I'd say with Cody its more about not losing than winning.

Take the managers interviews after the drawn game. Cody said he had no feelings - players sent home - no reception. Us v everyone - the template was set.

O'Shea talked about it being a brilliant game and pride in the players. Understandable, given where Tipp had come from. It's not about changes or life changes - it's all those different elements. But, it boils down to degrees of acceptance or hurt when defeated. Denis Bryne said in an interview that the biggest difference between KK and Tipp squads he was involved in were how bad KK took defeats. Tipp took them easier. That's not to say Tipp enjoy defeat....Kilkenny just don't take it as well. They go mad - hence KK's onus on physicality when galway bullied them in a semi earlier in Cody's reign....

Cody or Roy Keane - or other ruthless obsessives - don't take defeat as well as others - it produces ruthlessness.

Your nonsense is talking about changes to teams and whatever else you said - i don't see how it applies to the ruthless nature of the Cody reign. Or any team which dominates- nature of the beast. They usually don't play the best or beautiful style of game - but they win...because losing hurts too much.

We have ruthless winners playing in Tipp just not as many as in KK. - But, no I won't agree that O'Shea or Sheedy are as ruthless as Cody. I don't see it. They are not as hungry or obsessed. Nicky English too. They're too nice and interesting to be the type of person it takes to be ruthless.

There you are now, but no doubt you'll come up with your own version! And best of luck to you!

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m61wzbwJpC1rqfhi2o1_500.gif

digzy

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Ruthless is an attitude for the most part - there is no deviation from winning. There is nothing in between winning and losing. In fact, I'd say with Cody its more about not losing than winning.

Take the managers interviews after the drawn game. Cody said he had no feelings - players sent home - no reception. Us v everyone - the template was set.

O'Shea talked about it being a brilliant game and pride in the players. Understandable, given where Tipp had come from. It's not about changes or life changes - it's all those different elements. But, it boils down to degrees of acceptance or hurt when defeated. Denis Bryne said in an interview that the biggest difference between KK and Tipp squads he was involved in were how bad KK took defeats. Tipp took them easier. That's not to say Tipp enjoy defeat....Kilkenny just don't take it as well. They go mad - hence KK's onus on physicality when galway bullied them in a semi earlier in Cody's reign....

Cody or Roy Keane - or other ruthless obsessives - don't take defeat as well as others - it produces ruthlessness.

Your nonsense is talking about changes to teams and whatever else you said - i don't see how it applies to the ruthless nature of the Cody reign. Or any team which dominates- nature of the beast. They usually don't play the best or beautiful style of game - but they win...because losing hurts too much.

We have ruthless winners playing in Tipp just not as many as in KK. - But, no I won't agree that O'Shea or Sheedy are as ruthless as Cody. I don't see it. They are not as hungry or obsessed. Nicky English too. They're too nice and interesting to be the type of person it takes to be ruthless.

There you are now, but no doubt you'll come up with your own version! And best of luck to you!

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m61wzbwJpC1rqfhi2o1_500.gif

Good man. I still dunno what you're on about. Are you seriously suggesting holding Roy keane up as an example of how a team manager ought to conduct himself! Oh sweet Jesus...

Looks like you're running out of fellas to argue with. It wouldn't be one of your posts without about 5 paragraphs and a link for good measure

evolving tipperary

All I did was offer opinion. Arguing with no one - thought it might be interesting. You can always ignore them. No bother at all! Good man yourself!

farmerval

I agree with ET about the lack of ruthlessness in the Tipp camp. Would Brian Cody have left Mickey Cahill on the line for the replay if fit? Instead from Eamon O Shea the line seemed to be the guys who played the first day had played really well so deserved to stay there.
If Michael Cahill was the better player he should have started the replay, particularly so against a team obviously targeting their height advantage over our backs.

Eamon O Shea's style appears to be about coaxing the best out of the players, often waiting a long time for a return, a la Noel McGrath this year and even with Lar, who seems untouchable yet only delivers cameos in a game.

Can anyone on this forum imagine Cody accommodating Noel McGrath all the time? Equally Noel McGrath may thrive better in a more pressured scenario, who knows?

digzy

evolving tipperary wrote: »

All I did was offer opinion. Arguing with no one - thought it might be interesting. You can always ignore them. No bother at all! Good man yourself!

Interesting is one word for it ........

You've been arguing your opinion for the last 3 pages in case you haven't noticed. If makes even less sense now than it did a few days ago.

Roy Keanes management style:rolleyes:

digzy

farmerval wrote: »

I agree with ET about the lack of ruthlessness in the Tipp camp. Would Brian Cody have left Mickey Cahill on the line for the replay if fit? Instead from Eamon O Shea the line seemed to be the guys who played the first day had played really well so deserved to stay there.
If Michael Cahill was the better player he should have started the replay, particularly so against a team obviously targeting their height advantage over our backs.

Eamon O Shea's style appears to be about coaxing the best out of the players, often waiting a long time for a return, a la Noel McGrath this year and even with Lar, who seems untouchable yet only delivers cameos in a game.

Can anyone on this forum imagine Cody accommodating Noel McGrath all the time? Equally Noel McGrath may thrive better in a more pressured scenario, who knows?

You're correct to an extent. Which back would you suggest get the bullet for Cahill? I've been critical of lar and noël here previously but who do you bring in for them. To be fair both players have had their moments. As I've said already it's easy bring in subs when you've a bench like kk's

ReacherCreature

I'm half in stitches reading this page, classic. I want to engage with you, et but I've no clue what you're on about!

farmerval

digzy wrote: »

You're correct to an extent. Which back would you suggest get the bullet for Cahill? I've been critical of lar and noël here previously but who do you bring in for them. To be fair both players have had their moments. As I've said already it's easy bring in subs when you've a bench like kk's

It's not about who you would bring in for them now, it's just would Cody have put up with them all year? EOS seemed happy to accentuate the positive all year, it seems to be his way, I'm not being critical of him, but I feel that with his style we will be waiting to achieve a perfect game to win an all-ireland.
At the Clare game in the league the team were atrocious, yet O Shea was professing confidence afterwards. that seems to be his style.
He admittedly got way more out of Shane McGrath than I thought was possible.

Charlie69

farmerval wrote: »

I agree with ET about the lack of ruthlessness in the Tipp camp. Would Brian Cody have left Mickey Cahill on the line for the replay if fit? Instead from Eamon O Shea the line seemed to be the guys who played the first day had played really well so deserved to stay there.
If Michael Cahill was the better player he should have started the replay, particularly so against a team obviously targeting their height advantage over our backs.

Eamon O Shea's style appears to be about coaxing the best out of the players, often waiting a long time for a return, a la Noel McGrath this year and even with Lar, who seems untouchable yet only delivers cameos in a game.

Can anyone on this forum imagine Cody accommodating Noel McGrath all the time? Equally Noel McGrath may thrive better in a more pressured scenario, who knows?

For what it's worth , I agree with digzy when he say's Cody is spoilt for choice re options for his defence, but imo M Cahill would be an automatic choice on the Kilkenny team if he was available to Brian.

I would regard him as a fantastic hurler and myself and a lot of Kilkenny people were shocked (and delighted) when he was left off for the replay.
Very highly regarded player among the Kilkenny players too.

digzy

farmerval wrote: »

It's not about who you would bring in for them now, it's just would Cody have put up with them all year? EOS seemed happy to accentuate the positive all year, it seems to be his way, I'm not being critical of him, but I feel that with his style we will be waiting to achieve a perfect game to win an all-ireland.
At the Clare game in the league the team were atrocious, yet O Shea was professing confidence afterwards. that seems to be his style.
He admittedly got way more out of Shane McGrath than I thought was possible.

I see your point. However, if you don't put up with them then it implies you've someone to take the jersey. Who would you suggest? Would fellas like maher, bourke, Kelly or forde have done much better. Tbf I'd eos thought they were better options I doubt he'd have persevered with noël and lar.

I wondered about eos after the replay. Kk knew how we'd play/set up. We've been doing it all year. We'd no plan b. On the other hand what would've happened if he changed the style in 3 weeks? You couldn't do it without wholesale player changes. Eos has a style of play to suit the players. He doesn't have a pre determined style and then pick the players I'd imagine.

evolving tipperary

What's your best team in Ireland?

buggy beag

what would be the best team if you could merge the two counties and were totally unbiased?:P

evolving tipperary

Two refs in hurling?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/hurling/no-need-for-second-referee-in-hurling-cautions-shefflin-289265.html

farmerval

I don't know have we replacements, but to come at it from a slightly different perspective how many of our players have improved from 2010?
When EOS took over and kept on the old stagers in the panel it seemed to lay down a marker, even making Shane McGrath captain suggested he saw our future in the 2010 panel. Keeping Eoin, John O Brien, Cummins, even Lar didn't look like a new beginning for the squad.

As an aside I think B Cody winning the AI this year was his greatest achievement, winning with a team very much on the wane. Their old heros; Jackie, JJ, Henry, Tommy Walsh, Brian Hogan are nothing like they were, and many of the replacements are good but not in the same league.

buggy beag

buggy beag wrote: »

what would be the best team if you could merge the two counties and were totally unbiased?:P

gleeson,murphy,delaney,cahill,b maher,p maher,walsh,fennelly,hogan,r power,bonnar,bubbles,fennelly,callanan,reid

evolving tipperary

Padraig Walsh and Keiran Joyce look decent to me - Brian Kennedy might come good yet...

They're minors looked very good this year...but the conveyor belt has to dry up at some stage or does it?

Fogarty became a very important players for them this year - work-rate was phenomenal

I think the best is yet to come from Colin Fennelly

evolving tipperary

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Two refs in hurling?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/hurling/no-need-for-second-referee-in-hurling-cautions-shefflin-289265.html

Id say if they thought they could get away with it they would say there is no need for one and give Cody the whistle

Honestly though i dont really see the need for a second ref. Perhaps a TMO could be tried out for penalty calls, etc, but i cant really see the benefit of having a second man running around the field. Ideally the umpires need to evolve into a stronger character of greater conviction and more dynamism.

Fwank wizzo

farmerval wrote: »

As an aside I think B Cody winning the AI this year was his greatest achievement, winning with a team very much on the wane. .

I'd say what we saw Saturday was a new dynasty being created.
Take JJ and Jackie out and you have a fairly young team.(They are each 32)
Was still a great achievement though.

evolving tipperary

Two biffos!!!! One is enough!

As long as Brian Cody is there Kilkenny will always be a team who plays with high intensity, high workrate and terrific unison and this may continue even after Cody is left.

But to be honest, While Kilkenny are difficult to beat they are not unbeatable. We had goal chances on the first day and managed to open up the defence once or twice in the replay. Kilkenny succeed and we fail on one very fundamental area - their forwards hunt in packs, ours quite simply dont. The whole area of anticipating the breaking ball just seems a foreign concept. I can accept Kilkenny catching one or two aerial balls in that half back line but for them to be able to put the perfect long pass up the field afterwards is just unacceptable. They should be under immense pressure. Id love to say we'll get over the line eventually but if we dont cop ourselves on and start realising where our weaknesses lie in order to address them then we're at nothing.

We need to start analysing previous games more too. Do we have a video analyst and if we do are they any good or are we using him? Part of me thinks we went into that game very naive almost expecting another shootout.

varberg

Deleted User wrote: »

As long as Brian Cody is there Kilkenny will always be a team who plays with high intensity, high workrate and terrific unison and this may continue even after Cody is left.

But to be honest, While Kilkenny are difficult to beat they are not unbeatable. We had goal chances on the first day and managed to open up the defence once or twice in the replay. Kilkenny succeed and we fail on one very fundamental area - their forwards hunt in packs, ours quite simply dont. The whole area of anticipating the breaking ball just seems a foreign concept. I can accept Kilkenny catching one or two aerial balls in that half back line but for them to be able to put the perfect long pass up the field afterwards is just unacceptable. They should be under immense pressure. Id love to say we'll get over the line eventually but if we dont cop ourselves on and start realising where our weaknesses lie in order to address them then we're at nothing.

We need to start analysing previous games more too. Do we have a video analyst and if we do are they any good or are we using him? Part of me thinks we went into that game very naive almost expecting another shootout.

agree completely. looked like we learned little from 11,12 13 games. This one was more like them than the drawn game. I read before one player saying he never watched matches after, how can u learn if u dont, a video analyst is vital.

varberg

varberg wrote: »

agree completely. looked like we learned little from 11,12 13 games. This one was more like them than the drawn game. I read before one player saying he never watched matches after, how can u learn if u dont, a video analyst is vital.

Apparently Damien Young from Drom/Inch is our video analyst. Now whether we even bother even use him or he misses the few things is another matter but if we have something like this and its under utilised then we've only ourselves to blame. I had noticed this year that we got caught with stupid things such as leaving opposition men free from opposition line balls. You can bet your money that Cody goes over everything with a fine tooth comb.

evolving tipperary

Picking up runs and marking men from sidelines and frees - does not take video analysis - that's basic underage stuff - that's player responsibility - some lads just want to be creative and the nuts and bolts of the game go by them... we all know who they are....

we are also talking about fine margins here - both cody and o'shea have talked about how the game takes on a life of its own - how they have to trust players...- cody made the changes after the replay in team selection whiich changed how the game would be played

what happened to noel mac's sideline point taking ability ... he used to be a good long range free taker too...

evolving tipperary

who said anything about keane conducting himself as a manager - i'm holding him up as an example of ruthlessness - can you read?

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/gerard-piques-admits-still-terrified-roy-keane-172938685--sow.html

digzy

evolving tipperary wrote: »

who said anything about keane conducting himself as a manager - i'm holding him up as an example of ruthlessness - can you read?

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/gerard-piques-admits-still-terrified-roy-keane-172938685--sow.html

you're hilarious. you mentioned keane having the qualities that o shea, sheedy etc lack. yeah he had such a great managerial career.............

Were you not having a go at them for 'walking away'? How did keano leave sunderland? He was sacked from Ipswich.

he got his assistants to take the training sessions............and he was a professional

I think you're confusing dedication with ruthlessness.......but keep on arguing away with yourself..........;)

evolving tipperary

no! Can't read....You'll have to go back to school, laddie!