Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14

PhlegmyMoses

Pro. F wrote: »

4231/4411; rigid and unimaginative passing moves; focus on playing in the wide players, especially the fullbacks; lack of interplay and movement between the strikers and the rest of the team; central midfielders who don't link up well with forwards; mid level defensive block with the opposition funnelled out wide; team usually struggling physically in the last 20 minutes.

The only differences are that he has had to do with fullbacks who aren't good enough to work the system (Evra and Smalling) and strikers who are better then he is used to, but not as dominant in the air.

I don't think he played with wide men at Everton. Pienaar and Osman prefer to cut inside. Fellaini was the focus of a lot of their play centrally, as was Cahill and Arteta. The only real width that they had was Baines. Until last year, they were playing Tony Hibbert at RB. Hardly a marauding fullback capable of great attacking play. I remember that team very differently to you.

MANUTD99

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I don't think he played with wide men at Everton. Pienaar and Osman prefer to cut inside. Fellaini was the focus of a lot of their play centrally, as was Cahill and Arteta. The only real width that they had was Baines. Until last year, they were playing Tony Hibbert at RB. Hardly a marauding fullback capable of great attacking play. I remember that team very differently to you.

Yep from watching Everton last few seasons, everything revolved around getting the ball to Arteta, Cahill and Fellaini in the middle.

Watch Pro. F accuse you now of changing the goal posts!

Pro. F

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Have you anything to show or can you elaborate what you think the differences between the way Fergie had us playing last season and the way Moyes has us playing this season out of curiosity?

To me not much has changed, fullbacks crossing more is evident but that to me is nothing major.

Fergie was an anomaly, he juiced every last bit from the players, it's the reason he'll go down as one of the greatest. Moyes in his first season can't do this, no manager in the world could.

Fergie had the team pressing up on the opposition and finishing strong coming up to half time and full time. Moyes' style is the opposite. I don't know if that's because of an issue in the training, because they are holding nothing in reserve when they're playing or because of what he demands from them positionally, but now they are often struggling physically for the last 15-20 minutes.

The passing is very slow and predictable now. It's the same passing moves and the same situations over and over again. That to me looks like a team that have spent too much time on rehearsing passing moves and attacking combinations, rather than on building fluency. Fergie's team was completely different, much more variation in the passing, movement and interchanges of position.

There was a problem with unimaginative play under Ferguson at times too, with the play just being sent out to the wingers too much. But it was nothing like this.

A Brad Maddox Guy

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I don't think he played with wide men at Everton. Pienaar and Osman prefer to cut inside. Fellaini was the focus of a lot of their play centrally, as was Cahill and Arteta. The only real width that they had was Baines. Until last year, they were playing Tony Hibbert at RB. Hardly a marauding fullback capable of great attacking play. I remember that team very differently to you.

This is all correct but 2/3 years ago Coleman was getting a lot of game time on right wing and providing their width then. So he didn't have them playing quite so narrow all the time.

PhlegmyMoses

MANUTD99 wrote: »

Yep from watching Everton last few seasons, everything revolved around getting the ball to Arteta, Cahill and Fellaini in the middle.

Watch Pro. F accuse you now of changing the goal posts!

Ah here, he's entitled to his opinion. Having watched them over the last 4/5 years, though, it doesn't ring true for me.

MANUTD99

Pro. F wrote: »

Fergie had the team pressing up on the opposition and finishing strong coming up to half time and full time. Moyes' style is the opposite. I don't know if that's because of an issue in the training, because they are holding nothing in reserve when they're playing or because of what he demands from them positionally, but now they are often struggling physically for the last 15-20 minutes.

The passing is very slow and predictable now. It's the same passing moves and the same situations over and over again. That to me looks like a team that have spent too much time on rehearsing passing moves and attacking combinations, rather than on building fluency. Fergie's team was completely different, much more variation in the passing, movement and interchanges of position.

There was a problem with unimaginative play under Ferguson at times too, with the play just being sent out to the wingers too much. But it was nothing like this.

What team have you been watching. United way under Fergie was sit back and then counter. Opposite teams were always given time and the ball and then murdered on counter attack

PhlegmyMoses

A Brad Maddox Guy wrote: »

This is all correct but 2/3 years ago Coleman was getting a lot of game time on right wing and providing their width then. So he didn't have them playing quite so narrow all the time.

He wasn't really a regular starter. Defo a lot of sub appearances in the last couple of years.

Even the likes of Bilyaletdinov was more likely to cut inside than hug the touch line.

A Brad Maddox Guy

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

He wasn't really a regular starter. Defo a lot of sub appearances in the last couple of years.

Even the likes of Bilyaletdinov was more likely to cut inside than hug the touch line.

One of the years he was almost a guaranteed starter on right wing. I remember this because I had him in my fantasy football team as a cheap defender and he absolutely raked in the points for me. They realised the next season and listed him as a midfielder unfortunately :P But yeah for the most part Moyes focused play down the middle for Everton with width coming from the full backs, and to say anything else is wrong.

Kylo Ren

www.juanmata7.com redirects you to his website.

Looks like he'll get 7.

irishfeen

BBC Sport Breaking ‏@bbcsport_ticker 2 mins
Football: Newcastle United reject a 14m bid from Ligue 1 champions Paris St-Germain for France midfielder Yohan Cabaye... http://bbc.in/1aXRXqN

Worth a 20mil bid I wonder?

GSPfan

Our favourite twitter idk has been saying Cabaye's agent is due at Old Trafford tomorrow. He is quoting an £18million figure as what Newcastle want.

I personally think Cabaye is a bit of a fall back plan for this window. He defo is better than nothing.

irishfeen

Here's a PM I got from a new poster Juan_Mata ... he can't post here yet so asked would I post it for him - I can't stand over anything he says but i'll take him on his word.....

_____________________________________________________________________________

Hi I am ...., frm the Netherlands. Ajax and Manchester United supporter.

I notice on the Manchester supporters page there is a lot of talk that Gundogan would be the perfect signing. I am hesistant to agree. I have been told by a friend of mine who is a Dortmund fan of his recurring injury. A back problem. He sounds similar to Hargreaves. Injury prone.

What my friend said:

Three journalists, all being extremely close to Klopp and to our Sporting Director, independently from each other said yesterday, after the Mata rumors came up, that the door for Shinji at Dortmund is closed. One even went so far to say that there's not the slightest, tiniest trace of a chance for Shinji's return.

So a swap deal will simply not happening. Caf' folks tend to overestimate Klopp's love for Shinji. He's a big fan, they have a special relationship - but he wouldn't take him back just because of this special bond.
The reason why the door is closed: Klopp will never play Mkhitaryan permanently on any other position than a 10.

If Gündogan leaves in summer, we'll buy a successor for Gündogan but won't pull Mkhitaryan back to accomodate Shinji or anybody else on the 10. I'm fully aware that Miki played CAM/DM at Shakthr but it doesn't matter to Klopp: Miki's strengths are totally wasted on the 8 position. He wanted him explicitely for this attacking, very high up on the pitch number 10 skills. Therefore, Shinji's return simply won't happen.

Now re: Gündogan. First of all, the question still is if he prefers United over Barca, Real, or Bayern. I have my doubts but I'm admittedly biased.
More importantly though are his back problems. I read some folks saying it does not matter if he's fit or not or that it was his first major injury or that he only suffers from bronchitis now but again, that's not correct.

He had suffered from minor back problems in the past (even before he came to Dortmund) but missed only one or two matches so people didn't really take notice. It's just the first time it's such a long, permanent time he couldn't play nor do training. That's because Gündogan suffers from spondylolisthesis. I hope I use the correct terms but simply put it's an anatomic instability of the upper spine where certain vertebrae don't work as they should. It can come with symptoms of pinched nerves in the spine cannel, resulting in (reversible) paralysis and/or inflammation. Both have happened to him and are the reason why he has been so long off. He still suffered from significant pain a week ago (he told the media).

Spondylolisthesis is a condition that can't be cured, surgery is only recommended in very rare occasions as you can end up having even more problems than before. Plus, a career as a professional football player is instantly off the table. All you can do is try to prevent any severe relapse through special training and pray. There are actually voices speculating he may not be able to continue his career as with this condition is simply impossible to make any predictions for how long he'll be relapse-free. This may be exaggerated but the course of his disease during the last 6 months (!) is simply disillusioning that he'll be relapse-free for a long time, given the physicality of daily life as a professional footballer. In particular in the PL - another reason why I could imagine that he'll move to Spain but that's speculation on my end.

Pro. F

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I don't think he played with wide men at Everton. Pienaar and Osman prefer to cut inside. Fellaini was the focus of a lot of their play centrally, as was Cahill and Arteta. The only real width that they had was Baines. Until last year, they were playing Tony Hibbert at RB. Hardly a marauding fullback capable of great attacking play. I remember that team very differently to you.

Kagawa prefers to cut inside, Young is a wrong sided winger and Januzaj has cut inside a lot as well. So he has played with those narrow players at United this season too. He's just bought Mata who is probably going to play from wide.

At Everton he did play with more naturally wide players at times, players like Bilyaletdinov, Drenthe, Coleman, van der Meyde and Kilbane.

One thing I forgot to say he has changed in his style is the hoofing it forward to a target man. I had feared that he would do that at United and he hasn't yet. I've given him credit for that plenty of times this season, I just forgot to mention it in that post now. The rest of his style is the same though.

Rayne Wooney

Cabaye should keep us ticking until the summer when we can get someone major like Vidal/Gundogan

He'll probably be a squad player after that though, pushing Cleverley further down the pecking order

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

It must be some new definition of "same" that means noticeably and surprisingly different, because having watched an awful lot of Everton over the last couple of years I was pretty surprised at how different Moyes set United up.

Saying Everton focussed on playing in the wide players is mad.

I forgot to mention that he has stopped hoofing the ball forward to a target man. That is one significant change that I have lauded him for already this season. But the rest that I outlined is the same.

Everton never focused on playing in Pienaar, Baines, Coleman, Donovan, Kilbane, etc, no? News to me. I must have been watching a different Everton to you all those years.

case885

Only good thing about clevs is he didnt cost us anything, imagine if we paid 10-15 mil on him :eek:

yabadabado

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Cabaye should keep us ticking until the summer when we can get someone major like Vidal/Gundogan

He'll probably be a squad player after that though, pushing Cleverley further down the pecking order

Carrick will be 33 when next season starts and Fletcher 30 so any cm that comes in will be also pushing both of them down the pecking order.I think Cayabe would be a very good signing now or in the summer but would be great to get him now.
If Cayabe could be got for >20m now it is a good addition and still leaves room to get a real top class cm in the summer.

MANUTD99

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Cabaye should keep us ticking until the summer when we can get someone major like Vidal/Gundogan

He'll probably be a squad player after that though, pushing Cleverley further down the pecking order

Reported 18 million? Would rather keep the money and spend it in the summer on a long term investment. Throwing money at Newcastle for him to plug a hole till we get someone better is not something I would go along with.

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

I forgot to mention that he has stopped hoofing the ball forward to a target man. That is one significant change that I have lauded him for already this season. But the rest that I outlined is the same.

Everton never focused on playing in Pienaar, Baines, Coleman, Donovan, Kilbane, etc, no? News to me. I must have been watching a different Everton to you all those years.

Not in the way United have. It's not the same, it's not even similar.

Pro. F

MANUTD99 wrote: »

What team have you been watching. United way under Fergie was sit back and then counter. Opposite teams were always given time and the ball and then murdered on counter attack

You are wrong. All the late domination we were used to seeing at the end of each half came with a good dose of high pressing when the opposition had the ball. We chased games and came back to win regularly, the team were hardly doing that by catching the opposition on the counter.

MANUTD99 wrote: »

Watch Pro. F accuse you now of changing the goal posts!

Disappointed now are you?

yabadabado

MANUTD99 wrote: »

Reported 18 million? Would rather keep the money and spend it in the summer on a long term investment. Throwing money at Newcastle for him to plug a hole till we get someone better is not something I would go along with.

I think he would be a good buy and at the price you are getting a good midfielder and someone who will improve the team .Buy him now but would still want/need another cm in the summer.
Ando is gone and I expect Giggs to retire.Jones is a CB so United have Carrick,Fletch,Fellaini and Clev to pick from.Plenty of room for Cayabe and another cm to come in.

PhlegmyMoses

Pro. F wrote: »

Kagawa prefers to cut inside, Young is a wrong sided winger and Januzaj has cut inside a lot as well. So he has played with those narrow players at United this season too. He's just bought Mata who is probably going to play from wide.

At Everton he did play with more naturally wide players at times, players like Bilyaletdinov, Drenthe, Coleman, van der Meyde and Kilbane.

One thing I forgot to say he has changed in his style is the hoofing it forward to a target man. I had feared that he would do that at United and he hasn't yet. I've given him credit for that plenty of times this season, I just forgot to mention it in that post now. The rest of his style is the same though.

Kagawa has simply been poor since he joined. He's shown flashes but he was relatively poor under Fergie as well. At Everton, he played with two players that cut inside. At United, he plays Valencia and Young quite a bit. He is working with what he is left with.

Of the players you mentioned, Drenthe played 20 games for Everton, as did Van Der Meyde and Bilyaletdinov was a midfielder playing in a nominal wide position. Kevin Kilbane hasn't played for Everton in almost 8 years and Coleman didn't start a whole pile of games in the last year or two. To say that any of these players indicate what style he played is disingenuous. Pienaar, Osman, Fellaini, Arteta and Cahill were the mainstays in that team. Very little width.

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

Not in the way United have. It's not the same, it's not even similar.

I've described what I see as the similarities, how about you describe what you see as the differences.

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

I've described what I see as the similarities, how about you describe what you see as the differences.

Trying to equate Ashley Young as a right footed winger playing on the left to Pienaar playing from the left is a pretty illustrative example of how much you're having to reach to make it seem similar.

keane2097

Yeah agree totally with Moses' post - disingenuous was a word I was going to use about the Pienaar/Young thing.

newballsplease

Juan Mata at chelseafc 2011-13: 135 appearances (116 starts), 33 goals, 51 assists.

Kerrydude1981

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Cabaye should keep us ticking until the summer when we can get someone major like Vidal/Gundogan

He'll probably be a squad player after that though, pushing Cleverley further down the pecking order

Ya Cabaye would add alot to the squad,a good option to have,he would be a threat as well in terms of goal scoring which is something we are missing badly with our other CM's atm.

Headshot

I really hope Moyes goes for the overkill of Putting Mata, Rooney and RVP in the starting lineup (of course if they're fit). It will be a sight to be hold

Kerrydude1981

Headshot wrote: »

I really hope Moyes goes for the overkill of Putting Mata, Rooney and RVP in the starting lineup (of course if they're fit). It will be a sight to be hold

Quick edit there

Headshot

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Quick edit there

Ninja my friend, ninja

Pro. F

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Kagawa has simply been poor since he joined. He's shown flashes but he was relatively poor under Fergie as well. At Everton, he played with two players that cut inside. At United, he plays Valencia and Young quite a bit. He is working with what he is left with.

Of the players you mentioned, Drenthe played 20 games for Everton, as did Van Der Meyde and Bilyaletdinov was a midfielder playing in a nominal wide position. Kevin Kilbane hasn't played for Everton in almost 8 years and Coleman didn't start a whole pile of games in the last year or two. To say that any of these players indicate what style he played is disingenuous. Pienaar, Osman, Fellaini, Arteta and Cahill were the mainstays in that team. Very little width.

The fact that Kagawa has been poor doesn't change the fact that Moyes has played him from wide a fair bit. Kagawa has made 12 starts and 2 sub appearance this season, Young has only made 7 and 9.

Coleman did start a whole pile of games (on the wing) in 2010/11 and the first half of 11/12. In the league he made 25 starts and 9 subs on the wing for Everton in 10/11 and from the start of the next season he made 11 starts out of 14 games up until his injury in December. link

I disagree that Bilyaletdinov was a midfielder playing wide. He played two full seasons for Lokomotiv on the left wing and was naturally suited to taking on the fullback on the outside. Drenthe and van der Meyde only played 20 games each but that's still 40 games from natural wingers. I don't see why Kilbane's time is too long ago to discuss, but whatever.

You are wrong to say that Moyes didn't play a significant number of games with natural wide players in his time at Everton. You are also wrong to say that he hasn't played with narrow players starting wide at United.

Mikeyt086

irishfeen wrote: »

Here's a PM I got from a new poster Juan_Mata ... he can't post here yet so asked would I post it for him - I can't stand over anything he says but i'll take him on his word.....

_____________________________________________________________________________

Hi I am ...., frm the Netherlands. Ajax and Manchester United supporter.

I notice on the Manchester supporters page there is a lot of talk that Gundogan would be the perfect signing. I am hesistant to agree. I have been told by a friend of mine who is a Dortmund fan of his recurring injury. A back problem. He sounds similar to Hargreaves. Injury prone.

What my friend said:

Three journalists, all being extremely close to Klopp and to our Sporting Director, independently from each other said yesterday, after the Mata rumors came up, that the door for Shinji at Dortmund is closed. One even went so far to say that there's not the slightest, tiniest trace of a chance for Shinji's return.

So a swap deal will simply not happening. Caf' folks tend to overestimate Klopp's love for Shinji. He's a big fan, they have a special relationship - but he wouldn't take him back just because of this special bond.
The reason why the door is closed: Klopp will never play Mkhitaryan permanently on any other position than a 10.

If Gündogan leaves in summer, we'll buy a successor for Gündogan but won't pull Mkhitaryan back to accomodate Shinji or anybody else on the 10. I'm fully aware that Miki played CAM/DM at Shakthr but it doesn't matter to Klopp: Miki's strengths are totally wasted on the 8 position. He wanted him explicitely for this attacking, very high up on the pitch number 10 skills. Therefore, Shinji's return simply won't happen.

Now re: Gündogan. First of all, the question still is if he prefers United over Barca, Real, or Bayern. I have my doubts but I'm admittedly biased.
More importantly though are his back problems. I read some folks saying it does not matter if he's fit or not or that it was his first major injury or that he only suffers from bronchitis now but again, that's not correct.

He had suffered from minor back problems in the past (even before he came to Dortmund) but missed only one or two matches so people didn't really take notice. It's just the first time it's such a long, permanent time he couldn't play nor do training. That's because Gündogan suffers from spondylolisthesis. I hope I use the correct terms but simply put it's an anatomic instability of the upper spine where certain vertebrae don't work as they should. It can come with symptoms of pinched nerves in the spine cannel, resulting in (reversible) paralysis and/or inflammation. Both have happened to him and are the reason why he has been so long off. He still suffered from significant pain a week ago (he told the media).

Spondylolisthesis is a condition that can't be cured, surgery is only recommended in very rare occasions as you can end up having even more problems than before. Plus, a career as a professional football player is instantly off the table. All you can do is try to prevent any severe relapse through special training and pray. There are actually voices speculating he may not be able to continue his career as with this condition is simply impossible to make any predictions for how long he'll be relapse-free. This may be exaggerated but the course of his disease during the last 6 months (!) is simply disillusioning that he'll be relapse-free for a long time, given the physicality of daily life as a professional footballer. In particular in the PL - another reason why I could imagine that he'll move to Spain but that's speculation on my end.

I believe this is all true, however it was posted on reddit in the r/reddevils subreddit a few days ago.

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

Trying to equate Ashley Young as a right footed winger playing on the left to Pienaar playing from the left is a pretty illustrative example of how much you're having to reach to make it seem similar.

Okay, Young is a bit of a reach. Look at the game time he has given to Januzaj and Kagawa then. And look at the game time he gave to natural wide players at Everton (see my last response to PhlegmyMoses).

Edit: Actually, scratch Januzaj, as even though he likes to cut in he is more comfortable on the outside than the likes of Pianaar and Osman ever were. So look at his use of Kagawa and natural wide players at Everton.

Kerrydude1981

Good article here

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/moyes-over-mata-player-manchester-6595205?

IamtheWalrus

Is anyone else hoping Moyes doesn't go for Cabaye, especially at the prices mentioned? The bar has been reset with Mata since the Felaini buy and I hope it remains there.

keano2012

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Is anyone else hoping Moyes doesn't go for Cabaye, especially at the prices mentioned? The bar has been reset with Mata since the Felaini buy and I hope it remains there.

Absolutely...has to be Vidal or Kroos or someone in that bracket...cabaye is a good player but not in the same bracket.

Dicky Pride

Remember the first game of last season. Goodison Park. Fellani beats us, almost single handedly. Will we ever see that man again I wonder?

keano2012

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Remember the first game of last season. Goodison Park. Fellani beats us, almost single handedly. Will we ever see that man again I wonder?

Hopefully....that's the Fellaini we were buying.if he does turn on that form again we'll be ok....just hoping he can a good run of games now. He needs a big gam against a lpool or city IMO

DM_7

In the summer I would say no but now Cabaye is more realistic than a vidaI. Would also be a champions league eligible player.

IamtheWalrus

DM-ICE wrote: »

In the summer I would say no but now Cabaye is more realistic than a vidaI. Would also be a champions league eligible player.

But he'd still be around next season.

edgecutter

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Remember the first game of last season. Goodison Park. Fellani beats us, almost single handedly. Will we ever see that man again I wonder?

We will never play Fellani that high up the pitch nor will we play those tactics of hoofing it long to him.

DM_7

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

But he'd still be around next season.

True, would be a great option to have in the squad. Better than anderson or giggs, Cleverley, Jones too. Fletcher can't be depended on yet.

The_Kew_Tour

Fabio gone and Zaha in talks for loan move.

Have I missed anything else today?

Bit hungover so I am.:o

Quandary

If Cabaye can be gotten for less than 20m it would be great business for us. He isn't my first choice for a variety of reasons, his attitude being one, but he is considerably superior to all of our existing centre mids. If we could get him for a fair price he would significantly improve our team right now, and then in the summer after we hopefully sign a world class cm he would be at the very least a good squad player.

Antibac

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Fabio gone and Zaha in talks for loan move.

Have I missed anything else today?

Bit hungover so I am.:o

That's pretty much it Kew. We supposedly have put a bid in for Shaw

The_Kew_Tour

Antibac wrote: »

That's pretty much it Kew. We supposedly have put a bid in for Shaw

Cheers lad.

yabadabado

if PSG do get Cabaye ,what would ye think of looking for Matuidi?He hasn't signed an extension so is free to talk to other teams and looks like he will be off in the summer.Maybe bid for him now ,I have been impressed with him when I have watched PSG

Headshot

so seems Mata will play in his favourite position which is probably

---

RVP

---

Mata----Rooney----Jan

---

excluding RVP, all will interchange

Headshot

Chelsea manager Jose Mourinho has admitted that he is "sorry" that he couldn't give Juan Mata what he wanted at the club.

Mata was voted as Chelsea's player of the year for the last two seasons but found himself out of favour under Mourinho, who opted to build his team around Oscar instead.

Mata has now joined Manchester United for a club-record fee of £37.1m, and Mourinho admitted that he could not deny the Spaniard an opportunity to play regularly in his favoured position.

"I feel sorry that I didn't make him happy, but football is football and I build a team around Oscar in that position and on the sides the other people is doing very, very well," Mourinho told reporters.

"Juan is not comfortable on the sides. He tried very hard and he did very well in some matches playing on the sides, but it's not his natural habitat.

"So when a club like Man United comes and for sure they told him he's going to play in his favourite position and he wants to go, he goes."

How the hell will we line up lol

jdooley28

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Fabio gone and Zaha in talks for loan move.

Have I missed anything else today?

Bit hungover so I am.:o

At one stage of the day Glen Johnson(yes, the RB who can't defend) was being talked about as a potential signing, it seems to have stopped now, my guess is it was suggested by someone still drunk from last night and lost pace as people started to sober up over the day!