Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14

keith16

Your Airbag wrote: »

I'm so happy right now. I'm going to get extra pissed tonight.

I'm on my 6th bottle of *checks label*, Finkbräu.

Saucy McKetchup

Fletcher was ok, he can and will do better as the season goes on, when Rooney and Van Persie come back we'll have a very good team which barring injuries should claim a top 4 spot, can't see any January signings though which might hinder us slightly.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

What I said


This Year.

I'll just ignore the rest of your post trying to prove that you have not ignored my previous post or twisted what I said because you did exactly that in your reply

Also Fletcher was clearly better than Clev today. I can't remember too many occasions of him getting turned and have to scramble back.

Oh you said "this year"? Oh that changes everything then! Now we can discuss it while completely ignoring anything that happened before January 1st! How convenient!

Timmyctc

Pro. F wrote: »

Oh you said "this year"? Oh that changes everything then! Now we can discuss it while completely ignoring anything that happened before January 1st! How convenient!

Mad that a less-than-comprehensive 2-0 home victory over lower-end Swansea can bring out these emotions in me on on this happy evening...

Fletcher's constant forward-minded thinking while in possession of the ball is a breath of fresh air and it puts me beyond contentment to see him back and looking so promising in the early stages of his career restart.

Januzaj had a great game, and he managed to stay on his feet for much of it. Not that I think he is a deliberate simulation practitioner, I just think he is finding his feet and getting used to the 'Oh fúckness' of the PL, physicality wise.

When Rooney and RVP return, we will have 3 guys potentially within the first 11 who can strike a serious freekick. That one which Jan rattled the bar with today resembled the technique and composure of a player well beyond Adnan's young years, but then again this is the way with a fair amount of his play. We need to keep him, continue to let him blossom and perfect his game but not overwork him or over-rely on him either.

Obviously Welbeck, Kagawa and Smalling should have drilled the ball into the net from 6 yards each today, but the build-ups to these chances were encouraging, plus that recently elusive clean-sheet is another positive.

Yeah every team finds it too easy to attack us on the left, and they can work through our midfield to get to this with ease also (Jonjo Shelvey the latest worldbeater to terrorise our defence) but these are matters to worry about tomorrow. Tonight is for the 3 points, I'll drink to that. Another rare night of looking forward to MOTD!

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

Still not back to full fitness, but always looked to pass forward or hang on to the ball passing backwards was a last resort.

Whether or not he is back to full fitness doesn't change the fact that he was not "very very good" today. He may get back to full fitness in the future and when he does he may put in performances that are "very very good", but that does not change what happened today.

beno619 wrote: »

Poor first half was down to Moyes playing Kagawa out wide.

And Cleverley never had to play with Kagawa out wide did he not?

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

Oh you said "this year"? Oh that changes everything then! Now we can discuss it while completely ignoring anything that happened before January 1st! How convenient!

Yes this is usually the norm, you respond to the point made. This is an ongoing difficulty for you though, you often twist a point to suit your argument and then accuse the other person of moving the goal posts.

If you wanted to discuss Clev before Jan 1st you should have put that point to me but you responded to a different point, one that doesn't suit your argument so that why you had to deflect I guess.

How about we discuss this point. Fletcher was clearly head and shoulders above Cleverly today.

The_Kew_Tour

We were awful, so awful in that first half once Swansea got inside our half. The ease in which Swansea were able to spread the ball around in first half was truly worrying for Chelsea.

Welbeck(again) Kagawa Januzaj and Vidic were standouts though in 2nd half.

RasTa

keith16 wrote: »

I'm on my 6th bottle of *checks label*, Finkbräu.

Only another 15 before you get drunk

RasTa

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

The ease in which Swansea were able to spread the ball around in first half was truly worrying for Chelsea.

They were even better against City, I thought they were poor today.

2moreMinutes

I'm here for the finkbrau. Damn tasty stuff. Even if the first 6 bottles taste like pish.

DM_7

(Second half)

While it's bad that Fletcher improves us so much its also a credit to the man.

That Januzaj is so influential in attack at his age is incredible.

Kagawa was helped a lot by both of them, as mentioned Welbecks running was also a big help to him. Hopefully he gets more games as the support forward, with those lads around him, all playing with the desire to make something happen and willing to try things. If he does then I am sure we will see the very best of him. Welbeck is probably the forward he will work best with and most like Lewandowski in how he will run for Kag, make space for him and also hold up the ball so Kagawa can make runs off him.

beno619

Pro. F wrote: »

Whether or not he is back to full fitness doesn't change the fact that he was not "very very good" today. He may get back to full fitness in the future and when he does he may put in performances that are "very very good", but that does not change what happened today.

And Cleverley never had to play with Kagawa out wide did he not?

Yep he was okay in the first half and very good in the second.

Again he was trying to do the right things in the first half as opposed to what Cleverley does when in possession of the ball.

Your defence of Cleverley is almost laughable, I'm just looking forward to enjoying United games again and watching MOTD.

Our best performances of the season Arsenal, Leverkuzen and the second half today have come when Cleverley has not been on the pitch, surprise surprise.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

Yes this is usually the norm, you respond to the point made. This is an ongoing difficulty for you though, you often twist a point to suit your argument and then accuse the other person of moving the goal posts.

If you wanted to discuss Clev before Jan 1st you should have put that point to me but you responded to a different point, one that doesn't suit your argument so that why you had to deflect I guess.

This is nonsense. Just because your point was dependent on only looking at results from this calender year doesn't mean that everybody who responds to you has to restrict their view as well.

You made a point about the first clean sheet and good result this year. I responded by pointing out that we had good results and clean sheets just a few weeks ago, which happens to fall outside the time frame you used but is obviously still relevant.

Your Airbag wrote: »

How about we discuss this point. Fletcher was clearly head and shoulders above Cleverly today.

I disagree. But there is no point discussing anything with you because as soon as you are losing an argument you resort to complaining about being misrepresented.

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

Yep he was okay in the first half and very good in the second.

Again he was trying to do the right things in the first half as opposed to what Cleverley does when in possession of the ball.

He did very little different with the ball to what Cleverley does. He struggled in the first and imposed himself more in the second. Cleverley has had such mixed bag performances as well.

beno619 wrote: »

Your defence of Cleverley is almost laughable, I'm just looking forward to enjoying United games again and watching MOTD.

Good for you. I'm happy after today's game as well. I can't wait for our season to kick on now that that Cleverley isn't holding the team back any more.

beno619 wrote: »

Our best performances of the season Arsenal, Leverkuzen and the second half today have come when Cleverley has not been on the pitch, surprise surprise.

Wrong. Cleverley played the entire second half against Arsenal.

2moreMinutes

It's laughable and slightly tragic how someone can be so blinded as to constantly defend Cleverley. He's not even close to being good enough to be a Utd player never mind being good enough to constantly argue for.
As with Wellbeck, there's always an awkward devils advocate though.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

You made a point about the first clean sheet and good result this year. I responded by pointing out that we had good results and clean sheets just a few weeks ago, which happens to fall outside the time frame you used but is obviously still relevant.

.

Yes you responded by pointing out two UTD wins with clean sheets to prove how good Clev is and yet you have a problem with me restricting the matches I judge (4 this year) and then you go and cut that sample size in half and select two clean sheet matches to show Clevs qaulity.

Thats twice on the same page you have contradicted yourself by doing what your complaining about.

One of the matches you picked btw Clev was awful in and turned many times, passed terrible and looked poor yet again and we scarped a win somehow. In your logic though its worthy enough to use in his defense.

Hank Scorpio

Still defending Cleverley oh dear. Was refreshing to see Fletcher command the ball and turn and pass it forward today

GSPfan

I expect us to revert to the aul 4,4,2 cross cross cross mentality for the Sunderland game.

Liam O

2moreMinutes wrote: »

It's laughable and slightly tragic how someone can be so blinded as to constantly defend Cleverley. He's not even close to being good enough to be a Utd player never mind being good enough to constantly argue for.
As with Wellbeck, there's always an awkward devils advocate though.

Yeah that Welbeck chap is crap isn't he? Done nothing recently.

Cleverley is good enough to be a United player. Not to be a consistent starter but definitely good enough for the squad. He played a bunch of games over Christmas as basically the lone midfielder(first time I've ever found something to use that term with) and with everyone playing terribly, not exactly ideal circumstances to show what he can do.

Hank Scorpio

Liam O wrote: »

Yeah that Welbeck chap is crap isn't he? Done nothing recently.

Cleverley is good enough to be a United player. Not to be a consistent starter but definitely good enough for the squad. He played a bunch of games over Christmas as basically the lone midfielder(first time I've ever found something to use that term with) and with everyone playing terribly, not exactly ideal circumstances to show what he can do.

So what can he do? What are his strengths as a player, what does he bring to the team?

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

Yes you responded by pointing out two UTD wins with clean sheets to prove how good Clev is and yet you have a problem with me restricting the matches I judge (4 this year) and then you go and cut that sample size in half and select two clean sheet matches to show Clevs qaulity.

Thats twice on the same page you have contradicted yourself by doing what your complaining about.

I have no problem with you restricting the matches you judge. You can do that if you want. I am happy to show how your arbitrary restriction on what games you consider does not give an informative view on what has happened.

There is no contradiction in what I have done there.

I didn't cut the sample size in half, I doubled it. Larger sample sizes lead to more accurate results.

Your Airbag wrote: »

One of the matches you picked btw Clev was awful in and turned many times, passed terrible and looked poor yet again and we scarped a win somehow. In your logic though its worthy enough to use in his defense.

I disagree with your assessment of his performance obviously.

Pro. F

Liam O wrote: »

Yeah that Welbeck chap is crap isn't he? Done nothing recently.

9 goals in 12 starts this season btw.

Red Crow

Cleverley is not Manchester United standard. Simple really. He's a very average player.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

There is no contradiction in what I have done there.

I didn't cut the sample size in half, I doubled it. Larger sample sizes lead to more accurate results.

Eh what? I said it was the best of our results this year, we have played four matches this year, the three in which Clev played we lost. You mentioned two matches which Clev played.

2 is half of four. You didn't double you halved.

I'm sure you'll have some reply that makes sense or shows how I have changed points but i can't stick around. I'm in too good a mood and off on the lash.

newballsplease

I said last week that imo the main reason for Utds poor form was down mainly to Tom Cleverley.
Today has assured me i wasnt wrong. I hope i never see him start another game for Utd.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

Eh what? I said it was the best of our results this year, we have played four matches this year, the three in which Clev played we lost. You mentioned two matches which Clev played.

2 is half of four. You didn't double you halved.

Your sample size was 4 matches, I increased the sample size to 9 matches, including the games in previous weeks, which fall outside of this calender year but are still recent. So I more than doubled the sample size and, surprise surprise, it turned out that good results and clean sheets are not that uncommon for United recently.

Your Airbag wrote: »

I'm sure you'll have some reply that makes sense or shows how I have changed points...

Yes, you are correct.

billyhead

newballsplease wrote: »

I said last week that imo the main reason for Utds poor form was down mainly to Tom Cleverley.
Today has assured me i wasnt wrong. I hope i never see him start another game for Utd.

This. He has a negative influence on the team when he plays

Timmyctc

What if we all live in a parallel universe where Tom Cleverly is awful but Pro F took the red pill and in reality Tom Cleverley is "Lionel Cristiano Keane" reincarnate?

nostrils

Can't wait to see the back of cleverly and young,moyes shouldn't give them any more game time.

Timmyctc

nostrils wrote: »

Can't wait to see the back of cleverly and young,moyes shouldn't give them any more game time.

Tbf Young has played well recently. I'd take him over Val on the right.

Pro. F

Timmyctc wrote: »

What if we all live in a parallel universe where Tom Cleverly is awful but Pro F took the red pill and in reality Tom Cleverley is "Lionel Cristiano Keane" reincarnate?

All I am doing is defending Cleverley against the unfair, and often ridiculous, criticism he gets on this thread. I'm not the only one who thinks that way about the scapegoating he has been getting, I'm just the one with the most patience to argue the case.

The_Kew_Tour

Next week is the real test now.

intellectual dosser

Cleverley has been on the scene since 2011, he's had his chance and there's no way he's able to run CM for Manchester United, and that's pretty much all there is to it.

adox

newballsplease wrote: »

I said last week that imo the main reason for Utds poor form was down mainly to Tom Cleverley.
Today has assured me i wasnt wrong. I hope i never see him start another game for Utd.

Christ if thats what you think the cause of Utds poor form is then I'm just speechless.


Really I get that people think Fletcher is a better player than Cleverley and he is, but it's like looking for a villain in the piece to easily explain Utd disastrous campaign this season. It's an extremely simplistic and ignorant view of the season.

It's like if it's said it enough on here it must be true.

Funny how Utd were as bad as ever today in the first half without Cleverley. Let's ignore that though and go for the lowest common denominator and simplistic view of the season and blame one player.


You couldn't make it up.

Timmyctc

Pro. F wrote: »

All I am doing is defending Cleverley against the unfair, and often ridiculous, criticism he gets on this thread. I'm not the only one who thinks that way about the scapegoating he has been getting, I'm just the one with the most patience to argue the case.

Tbh im only stirring the pot and aving a larf with you guise. I dont particulary hate nor rate him tbh tbf tbh

EDIT: x

PhlegmyMoses

The scapegoating of Cleverley is ridiculous. It's so bad that there has been scant mention in here of Januzaj's display today. I was expecting pages. I do feel Cleverley has been below par even by his standards this season, though.

Anyway, Januzaj. 18 and he does that. The last teenager that I saw that instantly impacted our team like this was Rooney. Even Ronaldo took some time to settle. It's hard to not get carried away

Pro. F

Timmyctc wrote: »

Tbh im only stirring the pot and aving a larf with you guise. I dont particulary hate nor rate him tbh tbf tbh

EDIT: x

You were having a joke at my expense. I don't appreciate it. Normally I wouldn't give a toss, but with such a long and heated debate going on I think it's poor form.

Liam O

newballsplease wrote: »

I said last week that imo the main reason for Utds poor form was down mainly to Tom Cleverley.
Today has assured me i wasnt wrong. I hope i never see him start another game for Utd.

The fact that this drivel has 5 thanks is what's wrong with this thread. The idea that Cleverley's presence makes Evra have his constant brainfarts and is responsible for Valencia's impotence in attack is jokeworthy. I suppose Cleverley is the one who comes up with the tactics though isn't he?

Jimmy Iovine

The real reason for the poor run has been because I haven't had my hood up while watching a match.

I put it up at half-time today because it was freezing and we scored. It came off during the celebrations, so I put it back on again. What happens next? We score again.

I'll be wearing that coat in the baking sun if it brings good luck.

2moreMinutes

Liam O wrote: »

Yeah that Welbeck chap is crap isn't he? Done nothing recently.

Cleverley is good enough to be a United player. Not to be a consistent starter but definitely good enough for the squad. He played a bunch of games over Christmas as basically the lone midfielder(first time I've ever found something to use that term with) and with everyone playing terribly, not exactly ideal circumstances to show what he can do.

Ur almost correct. Wellbeck is close to being crap. He's not a United striker. He's barely a top 6 player. He's gonna be defended due to him being a current player but he's nowhere near the standard needed at the level United claim to be at (the biggest club in the world).

Cleverley isn't fit to lace the boots of Uniteds midfield greats.

I do understand the blinkered approach to both though.

kryogen

2moreMinutes wrote: »

Ur almost correct. Wellbeck is close to being crap. He's not a United striker. He's barely a top 6 player. He's gonna be defended due to him being a current player but he's nowhere near the standard needed at the level United claim to be at (the biggest club in the world).

Cleverley isn't fit to lace the boots of Uniteds midfield greats.

I do understand the blinkered approach to both though.

Welbeck has everything in his game except for being clinical, that may never come but we have had plenty of strikers do very well for us who had that flaw (Andy Cole)

He is a brilliant all round footballer, a huge benefit to the team and I hope he is around for a long time yet. Barely a top 6 player my hole

Look around the top 6 in the league and their striking options, tell me how many have better 3rd/4th choice strikers to choose from?

beno619

2moreMinutes wrote: »

Ur almost correct. Wellbeck is close to being crap. He's not a United striker. He's barely a top 6 player. He's gonna be defended due to him being a current player but he's nowhere near the standard needed at the level United claim to be at (the biggest club in the world).

Cleverley isn't fit to lace the boots of Uniteds midfield greats.

I do understand the blinkered approach to both though.

Unfair on Welbeck. He has a lot of ability and has proven it on multiple occasions.

Lacks the killer instinct but that will come with more games and more chances.

MagicIRL

I think today really showed that both Kagawa and Januzaj need to be starting every game, with Kagawa in behind the striker and Januzaj off the wing. Valencia was awful, but he won't be dropped. Fletcher and Carrick ruled midfield, especially when Kagawa and Fletch moved that ball forward with pace in the second half.

sky88

MagicIRL wrote: »

I think today really showed that both Kagawa and Januzaj need to be starting every game, with Kagawa in behind the striker and Januzaj off the wing. Valencia was awful, but he won't be dropped. Fletcher and Carrick ruled midfield, especially when Kagawa and Fletch moved that ball forward with pace in the second half.

But when rvp and rooney are fit i just dont think kagawa is better than eithier of them so unless hes on the wing he wont be getting a game

newballsplease

Liam O wrote: »

The fact that this drivel has 5 thanks is what's wrong with this thread. The idea that Cleverley's presence makes Evra have his constant brainfarts and is responsible for Valencia's impotence in attack is jokeworthy. I suppose Cleverley is the one who comes up with the tactics though isn't he?

As i said... Hes Mainly the reason for the poor form. Ofcourse there are other factors but he is the main reason.
Anyone who watches football would see how poor of a player in central midfield he is.

2moreMinutes

As I said, I understand why people are loyal to current players but honest critique is what life is about so if the biggest club in the world think Danny Wellbeck is good enough to be even their third choice striker, I'm all outta words on the issue.

Red Crow

It's funny how people are sticking up for Cleverley with little or no basis to back it up other than the midfield is crap without him too. Well that's true but that doesn't make him any good. He's an average midfielder. I don't even think he's at squad player level. He offers very little other than carefulness with the ball. He offers nothing in attack, he's a poor tackler, poor positioning, he's slow, average passer, poor creativity. He's always moaning at teammates. He's just not a United player.

He's a good with a dead ball from corners. He gives 100% all the time and I'd say he's a good lad and he trains very hard but he's just not good enough.

I don't think we're bad because of Cleverley but I just don't see his value in this team. If United want to be a top side then we will need more from our bench than Tom Cleverley in midfield.

JRant

Moyes really does need to start the team the same way they lined up for the second half.

Give Kags a run in the 10 position. Rooney won't be 100% fit and after one of our best performances in the league the players should be rewarded.

Red Crow

I think people are overstating Cleverley's uselessness but by the same token I think Rooney has been our most overrated player this season.

/awaits assault