Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14

keeponhurling

Imagine if Rooney had left last summer?
It would bottom half of the table for sure.

Agueroooo

Kagawa wrote: »

I know what people saying about how hard it is to sign big players in January but is it me or do you hear any of the other top managers saying it's tough to sign players, city and Chelsea just seen to identify a player and go get them, I just don't understand why United don't do that

Its tough full stop and with the W.C in the summer will compound the issue.

adox

keeponhurling wrote: »

Imagine if Rooney had left last summer?
It would bottom half of the table for sure.

Likely a situation Utd will face this summer IMO.

CSF

adox wrote: »

It's hysteria don't ya know.

It just doesn't make sense. You would imagine there'd be minimum standards at a club like United, even for the first season. I can't imagine Moyes is close to meeting them. But then you have some fans who go on like its a testament to their character if they support a manager even if he isn't very good.

Timmyctc

keeponhurling wrote: »

Imagine if Rooney had left last summer?
It would bottom half of the table for sure.

Sure don't cha know. Everyone said we don't need him because of his attitude or something.

J. Marston

zorro2566 wrote: »

At this stage I wouldn't mind not beating Sunderland because we will be hammered in the final by City if we did get through.

I want to get to a cup final, it's the seasons last chance for a bit of glory. Rooney and Van Persie back and we might have a chance.

Long-term though, getting to that final could actually be detrimental. Lose or win, I think it automatically qualifies us for the Europa League and personally, I don't want us to be in that.

Your Airbag wrote: »

I'd prefer you to toddle off the thread.

Sorry to disappoint.

titan18

CSF wrote: »

It just doesn't make sense. You would imagine there'd be minimum standards at a club like United, even for the first season. I can't imagine Moyes is close to meeting them. But then you have some fans who go on like its a testament to their character if they support a manager even if he isn't very good.

Those fans are idiots though, support him no matter what. Moyes could go out there and kill puppies on the field, and they'd stand by and be like "We don't want to be like Chelsea or City."

TheDoc

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I'm not asking for them to stop. I'm saying that I feel it's distasteful and over the top. In the same way that they are entitled to their opinion, so am I.

I sometimes question are people actually entitled to an opinion : /

CSF

TheDoc wrote: »

I sometimes question are people actually entitled to an opinion : /

I sometimes answer, yes they are, obviously. What the **** are you talking about?

Rubber_Soul

Kagawa wrote: »

I know what people saying about how hard it is to sign big players in January but is it me or do you hear any of the other top managers saying it's tough to sign players, city and Chelsea just seen to identify a player and go get them, I just don't understand why United don't do that

Yeah Chelsea have done a fantastic job of getting in the top class forward they desperately need.

nullzero

Kagawa wrote: »

I know what people saying about how hard it is to sign big players in January but is it me or do you hear any of the other top managers saying it's tough to sign players, city and Chelsea just seen to identify a player and go get them, I just don't understand why United don't do that

Because City and Chelsea have owners who can afford to Pay the money required. United aren't in the same league as the owners of those clubs. Money talks in football. Without their rich owners City and Chelsea would have zero league title between them over the last decade. Those are the two clubs who will dominate English football from nite on. That I'd if course unless some equally rich owners purchase another club.

CSF

titan18 wrote: »

Those fans are idiots though, support him no matter what. Moyes could go out there and kill puppies on the field, and they'd stand by and be like "We don't want to be like Chelsea or City."

I'm not going to use the word idiots to describe them, but it's a crazy logic. City's managerial appointments have all been improvements on the man before.

Timmyctc

Timmyctc wrote: »

Sure don't cha know. Everyone said we don't need him because of his attitude or something.

Yes. Everyone. You are the only one who can see the sense Timmy. We bow to your infinite wisdom and glorious opinions. I wish I could be half as insightful as you but I fear I'll never achieve those dizzying highs.

Quandary

It's not going to be that easy to sign players this Summer with the WC. Also, players values tend to go up a lot more than they go down after the competition, especially the caliber of player we will be looking at.

I think Moyes should bid seriously now for the most realistic targets on his list. If they don't work out, at least he can try again in the summer.

Pro. F

That result and performance was no surprise. This season continues on the exact same as it has been all along.

Rayne Wooney

CSF wrote: »

It just doesn't make sense. You would imagine there'd be minimum standards at a club like United, even for the first season. I can't imagine Moyes is close to meeting them. But then you have some fans who go on like its a testament to their character if they support a manager even if he isn't very good.

Moyes is a good manager. The senior players have let the club down this season, it's not all Moyes' fault. Yes some of the blame is on him with tactics and selections but the fans don't know what's going on in the club and if Moyes is making these decisions simply because they are the best under the circumstances with the players he has. We've been ravaged with injury and the team has been severely neglected for years all of which aren't Moyes' fault.

The club aren't going to sack him, from his comments I'm sure the club have him backed for next season. His comments that he's trying to sign the best players but most won't be available until the summer are encouraging, one season of no success is just something United supporters may have to stomach for the long term success of the club. Moyes has identified where our weaknesses are, and I'm sure he'll strengthen sufficiently in the summer for us to be back in the race next year.

PhlegmyMoses

CSF wrote: »

It just doesn't make sense. You would imagine there'd be minimum standards at a club like United, even for the first season. I can't imagine Moyes is close to meeting them. But then you have some fans who go on like its a testament to their character if they support a manager even if he isn't very good.

That is true of some people. For me, I was very unhappy with his team selections and substitutions. I believe he cost us points at the start of the season.

As the season has gone on, this has all improved. Sure, he continues to play Valencia, but so did Fergie. You can see he is learning from his mistakes.

He has also had some incredibly bad luck with injuries to key players. We would never have challenged with those players as we are playing poorly but we'd be top 4 or a lot closer to top 4 than we are now.

I also think that a few players have let him down badly this year and are maybe on their last legs with United, if not in their careers - Evra, Cleverley, Kagawa, Ferdinand, Valencia, Young etc.

He failed in his first transfer window. No other way of looking at it. But the kinds of players he is looking at and the fact that I don't think he'll be like Ferguson in the transfer market, by placing too high of an opinion in PL experience, makes me really want too see what he'll do to rebuild this squad.

I can see the arguments for and against Moyes. I'm currently on the for side.

irishfeen

For anyone who wants to be even more depressed on what we're missing - Scholes best top flight goals on SS1.....What a man, what a player, what a great servant to Manchester United.

adox

CSF wrote: »

It just doesn't make sense. You would imagine there'd be minimum standards at a club like United, even for the first season. I can't imagine Moyes is close to meeting them. But then you have some fans who go on like its a testament to their character if they support a manager even if he isn't very good.

There is three views on it, more or less, on this thread.


1. Moyes needs more time, we are Utd and we will give him at least a couple of seasons.

2. I'm not saying Moyes should be sacked but if we don't finish in the top four, questions should be asked.

3. Moyes should be sacked as soon as possible. Wrong man for the job and doing huge damage to the club.

No 1 is the most widely held opinion from what I read, followed by no 2 and lastly no 3.

To be honest, although he wouldn't have been my choice but when he was appointed I was a no 1.

However as the season has unfolded it has become as clear as day to me that he is the wrong man for the job and I've been in the no 3 camp since well before Christmas. It's a pretty unpopular opinion in here tbh.

Kirby

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Moyes is a good manager. The senior players have let the club down this season, it's not all Moyes' fault. Yes some of the blame is on him with tactics and selections but the fans don't know what's going on in the club and if Moyes is making these decisions simply because they are the best under the circumstances with the players he has. We've been ravaged with injury and the team has been severely neglected for years all of which aren't Moyes' fault.

The club aren't going to sack him, from his comments I'm sure the club have him backed for next season. His comments that he's trying to sign the best players but most won't be available until the summer are encouraging, one season of no success is just something United supporters may have to stomach for the long term success of the club. Moyes has identified where our weaknesses are, and I'm sure he'll strengthen sufficiently in the summer for us to be back in the race next year.

When they got dumped out of the FA cup by Swansea and lost to sunderland in the first leg of the league cup semi, they lost over 100 million in share value. Imagine what will happen if they don't get 4th spot?

If he misses out on top 4, the share price will completely plummet. It will cost the club hundreds of millions and they will have to respond by sacking him to placate the money men. It's inevitable. The only thing he can do to save his job is to start winning games. He wont be given another season.

And to be fair, United are too big not to be getting champions league. If he doesn't manage to get them there, surely he deserves to be sacked? I don't care what state Fergie left the squad in, they still aren't a mid table team.

Pro. F

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

He has also had some incredibly bad luck with injuries to key players. We would never have challenged with those players as we are playing poorly but we'd be top 4 or a lot closer to top 4 than we are now.

In the summer Moyes said that he had over trained van Persie. After the Newcastle game Moyes said that he kept van Persie on for the full 90 even though the plan had been to take him off after an hour. Rooney has said that he has done a lot more running in training under Moyes. All of that points to Moyes' training and treatment of players being of the type that causes more injuries.

Pro. F

adox wrote: »

There is three views on it, more or less, on this thread.


1. Moyes needs more time, we are Utd and we will give him at least a couple of seasons.

2. I'm not saying Moyes should be sacked but if we don't finish in the top four, questions should be asked.

3. Moyes should be sacked as soon as possible. Wrong man for the job and doing huge damage to the club.

No 1 is the most widely held opinion from what I read, followed by no 2 and lastly no 3.

To be honest, although he wouldn't have been my choice but when he was appointed I was a no 1.

However as the season has unfolded it has become as clear as day to me that he is the wrong man for the job and I've been in the no 3 camp since well before Christmas. It's a pretty unpopular opinion in here tbh.

I think there should be a 2a there: If we don't finish in the top 4 he should be sacked.

That's where I would be. Give him to the end of the season to turn it around (and I mean completely turn it around, including getting the team playing positive football), if he fails, sack him.

PhlegmyMoses

Pro. F wrote: »

In the summer Moyes said that he had over trained van Persie. After the Newcastle game Moyes said that he kept van Persie on for the full 90 even though the plan had been to take him off after an hour. Rooney has said that he has done a lot more running in training under Moyes. All of that points to Moyes' training and treatment of players being of the type that causes more injuries.

And this is fine. Mistakes that may or may not have led to injuries. I'm sure you're not suggesting that this is the only reason. Both of those players have a checkered past with injuries so it's hard to say definitively that this helped or hindered them.

RobertKK

titan18 wrote: »

Those fans are idiots though, support him no matter what. Moyes could go out there and kill puppies on the field, and they'd stand by and be like "We don't want to be like Chelsea or City."

The problem is some are acting as if we have no hope of getting top 4, are acting as if we went out of the CL at the group stage and while the FA cup was disappointing, we have a semi final in the other cup competition on Wednesday.

I am sure in the past, the same people were calling for Fergie to be sacked when we conceded three goals against Chelsea:
2001 Chelsea 3-0 United
2005: United lost 1-3 to Chelsea.
2006: Chelsea 3-0 United


It is not unusual for United to concede three against A Mourinho's Chelsea, did it at least twice under Fergie.

Kirby

RobertKK wrote: »

It is not unusual for United to concede three against A Mourinho's Chelsea, did it at least twice under Fergie.

True. But it is unusual to be 6th-8th for more than half a season. That hasn't happened in 20 years.

Lord TSC

RobertKK wrote: »

It is not unusual for United to concede three against A Mourinho's Chelsea, did it at least twice under Fergie.

Again though, that's focusing entirely on 90 minutes, ignoring the overall picture. Tell me, what was United's form and league position like before and after those three results?

enfant terrible

nullzero wrote: »

Because City and Chelsea have owners who can afford to Pay the money required. United aren't in the same league as the owners of those clubs. Money talks in football. Without their rich owners City and Chelsea would have zero league title between them over the last decade. Those are the two clubs who will dominate English football from nite on. That I'd if course unless some equally rich owners purchase another club.

Ferguson beat them, Wenger is ahead of them this season.

PhlegmyMoses

adox wrote: »

There is three views on it, more or less, on this thread.


1. Moyes needs more time, we are Utd and we will give him at least a couple of seasons.

2. I'm not saying Moyes should be sacked but if we don't finish in the top four, questions should be asked.

3. Moyes should be sacked as soon as possible. Wrong man for the job and doing huge damage to the club.

No 1 is the most widely held opinion from what I read, followed by no 2 and lastly no 3.

To be honest, although he wouldn't have been my choice but when he was appointed I was a no 1.

However as the season has unfolded it has become as clear as day to me that he is the wrong man for the job and I've been in the no 3 camp since well before Christmas. It's a pretty unpopular opinion in here tbh.

I'm in a different category. I don't want to give him time because it somehow represents United's core values. I want to give him time because I feel it's logical given the circumstances

CSF

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

That is true of some people. For me, I was very unhappy with his team selections and substitutions. I believe he cost us points at the start of the season.

As the season has gone on, this has all improved. Sure, he continues to play Valencia, but so did Fergie. You can see he is learning from his mistakes.

He has also had some incredibly bad luck with injuries to key players. We would never have challenged with those players as we are playing poorly but we'd be top 4 or a lot closer to top 4 than we are now.

I also think that a few players have let him down badly this year and are maybe on their last legs with United, if not in their careers - Evra, Cleverley, Kagawa, Ferdinand, Valencia, Young etc.

He failed in his first transfer window. No other way of looking at it. But the kinds of players he is looking at and the fact that I don't think he'll be like Ferguson in the transfer market, by placing too high of an opinion in PL experience, makes me really want too see what he'll do to rebuild this squad.

I can see the arguments for and against Moyes. I'm currently on the for side.

For the 2 key injuries United have had, is Moyes not largely to blame for them being as severe as they've been?

PhlegmyMoses

CSF wrote: »

For the 2 key injuries United have had, is Moyes not largely to blame for them being as severe as they've been?

Those two players have both been injured lots in their careers. It's folly to blame the manager entirely and is confirmation bias at its finest

Kirby

City lost Kompany, Nasri, and Aguero for large spells. Big players for them. It hasn't stopped them.

Losing RVP to injury was a big blow but it's not the only thing wrong with united at the moment. Every team loses players throughout the season.

Pro. F

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

And this is fine. Mistakes that may or may not have led to injuries. I'm sure you're not suggesting that this is the only reason. Both of those players have a checkered past with injuries so it's hard to say definitively that this helped or hindered them.

Indeed, you can't say for definite that those important players would have been fit more often without Moyes. But a manager who shows that he has such a faulty view of how to manager player fitness should already be in trouble imo. When I hear things like that from a manager, straight away I'm considering him for sacking. Imo it's that important.

So, for me, I don't think pointing to injuries is any sort of defence of the managers' performance.

billyhead

Look folks. He wont be sacked. He will be given time and money to rebuild in the summer and I would be confident he will still be in charge this time next year. We are not like those clowns at Madrid who sack and change players at the drop of a hat

irishfeen

We really are now in cup final matches in the PL - Outside those highlighted we have to win every single match from here on in ... our only hope is getting RVP and Rooney fit, momentum gathering and finishing with a flourish.... Moyes now has to throw off the reigns and just go for it.

Cardiff (H)
Stoke (A)
Fulham (H)
Arsenal (A)
Crystal Palace (A)
Man City (H)
West Brom (A)
Liverpool (H)
West Ham (A)
Aston Villa (H)
Newcastle (A)
Hull (H)
Everton (A)
Norwich (H)
Sunderland (H)
Southampton (A)

adox

billyhead wrote: »

Look folks. He wont be sacked. He will be given time and money to rebuild in the summer and I would be confident he will still be in charge this time next year. We are not like those clowns at Madrid who sack and change players at the drop of a hat

No 1. Q.E.D.

PhlegmyMoses

Pro. F wrote: »

Indeed, you can't say for definite that those important players would have been fit more often without Moyes. But a manager who shows that he has such a faulty view of how to manager player fitness should already be in trouble imo. When I hear things like that from a manager, straight away I'm considering him for sacking. Imo it's that important.

So, for me, I don't think pointing to injuries is any sort of defence of the managers' performance.

I think you're focusing too much on the RVP 90 minutes quotes tbh. I wouldn't be stating definitively that he was the reason for the injuries and that they'd have been more available without him.

For a start, Rooney is miles better than last year and looks way fitter. If we're going down those routes, we could say that Rooney benefitted massively from the extra running.

Moyes has been a high level football manager for years. To suggest that he doesn't know how to manage injuries based off a few snippets of information is not something I'd be doing

RobertKK

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Again though, that's focusing entirely on 90 minutes, ignoring the overall picture. Tell me, what was United's form and league position like before and after those three results?

I tell you what I think of the team, in Fifa 14 as manager I got rid of a lot of team and brought in better players, much easier in a game than in real life, but that is with hindsight I made the decisions. I think Moyes is trying to do the same but what one can do in a video game is far easier than in reality.

United have been very frustrating to watch, not only this season but last season as well, however, it was papered over by RVP and Rooney last season and Fergie had to bring Scholes out of retirement.

The type of player that Moyes is reportedly after is very encouraging, and this is what gives me hope and is why I will not write him off but if by the end of the summer transfer window we do not get the players we need then he is in serious trouble.
I believe he can do it though.

Not sure what the results were as I searched specifically for United/Chelsea games, but I suspect the injury crisis was not like the current one, Ronaldo was such a great player at avoiding injury.

The_Kew_Tour

The 1 problem I have is that I think Moyes seems to be accepting we aint going to get Top 4.

Chelsea were only in 2nd gear today and they won with ease.

At this point in time we are no better than i mid table club.

That was just one hell of a depressing performance.

If he does not buy LB and CM this window and does not get Top 4 then he is writing his own P45 for me.

We are now at crisis point.

titan18

He should be fired now and it's not really an argument. We've been awful this year and it looks like some of the players have given up on playing for him. Longer this goes on, more likely Rooney and RVP will look to leave, which will make it much harder to buy excellent players and harder to keep someone like De Gea.

PhlegmyMoses

titan18 wrote: »

He should be fired now and it's not really an argument. We've been awful this year and it looks like some of the players have given up on playing for him. Longer this goes on, more likely Rooney and RVP will look to leave, which will make it much harder to buy excellent players and harder to keep someone like De Gea.

Of course it's an argument. I'm arguing with it. Loads of people are arguing with it.

irishfeen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

The 1 problem I have is that I think Moyes seems to be accepting we aint going to get Top 4.

Chelsea were only in 2nd gear today and they won with ease.

At this point in time we are no better than i mid table club.

That was just one hell of a depressing performance.

If he does not buy LB and CM this window and does not get Top 4 then he is writing his own P45 for me.

We are now at crisis point.

I think that's very harsh Kew - it was mistakes and lack of guile up front that cost us today... throw RVP and Rooney into that team and the result could have been reversed ... we did actually create a fair few chances today.

Vic Vinegar

titan18 wrote: »

He should be fired now and it's not really an argument.

You're right, its not an argument.

Its daft to suggest he be fired in January.

titan18

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Of course it's an argument. I'm arguing with it. Loads of people are arguing with it.

Why though, other than the bs reason of we're United, not Chelsea, City, Madrid etc.

He's done nothing to show that's he deserving of being kept on.

irishmover

titan18 wrote: »

He should be fired now and it's not really an argument. We've been awful this year and it looks like some of the players have given up on playing for him. Longer this goes on, more likely Rooney and RVP will look to leave, which will make it much harder to buy excellent players and harder to keep someone like De Gea.

More like most of the players aren't fit to wear your beloved Man United jersey. It would be commendable (coming from a spurs fan) to watch a club stick with their manager when things aren't going well.

Pro. F

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I think you're focusing too much on the RVP 90 minutes quotes tbh. I wouldn't be stating definitively that he was the reason for the injuries and that they'd have been more available without him.

For a start, Rooney is miles better than last year and looks way fitter. If we're going down those routes, we could say that Rooney benefitted massively from the extra running.

Moyes has been a high level football manager for years. To suggest that he doesn't know how to manage injuries based off a few snippets of information is not something I'd be doing

Last year Rooney was messed around by Fergie. Fitness was not his problem, Fergie was. Nothing Rooney has done this season is out of the ordinary compared to what he has shown himself capable of in previous years.

As soon as I heard that Rooney was doing so much more running I was expecting him to have significant trouble with injuries this season. He may have better cardio fitness this season, but that wouldn't stop him being prone to injury. Stocky guys like Rooney always struggle with injuries when their volume of running goes up.

I am putting a lot of significance on what Moyes has said because there is no other way of interpreting it. If he had a sensible approach to how to prevent player injury he never would have said that nonsense about over training and over playing RvP.

I've seen plenty of evidence of how football managers ignore medical advice on injury prevention and management, so it is definitely plausible to me.

The_Kew_Tour

irishfeen wrote: »

I think that's very harsh Kew - it was mistakes and lack of guile up front that cost us today... throw RVP and Rooney into that team and the result could have been reversed ... we did actually create a fair few chances today.

I know you are glass half full type of guy(thats a compliment not a dig btw)

Hand on heart when it got to 2-0 did you honestly believe we still were in the game?

I didn't. Even in 04, 05 and 06 when we had bad players I always thought we had a chance even at 3-0 down.

Where are all these chances? Welbeck had 2 half chances and that was it. He pissed me off few times with his sheer laziness but we did create any chances although Januazj tried his dam hardest to make somthing happen.

Pro. F

irishfeen wrote: »

I think that's very harsh Kew - it was mistakes and lack of guile up front that cost us today... throw RVP and Rooney into that team and the result could have been reversed ... we did actually create a fair few chances today.

But we still conceded 3 goals. It's extremely unlikely that Rooney and RvP would have scored 4.

rolliepoley

Guys first post in here, I have been a lurker for a long while now so i thought it was time for me to let myself loose on you all.

United are on a downslide and i cant see it stopping on till the season is finished. We are in a new era of football and that football will take time for us to achieve something like our past glorys.
There is one very good thing that will come of this season is that moyes will have plenty of food for thought to build on and take stock. How he does that no will know, but it cant be any worse than at the present moment, so we will all have to just wait and see what unfolds. I think bringing in players in this window wont do any good for the team because we are already on a slide and i think that slide needs to stop before we can improve. so summer will be the best time for that.
Moyes will not be sacked and he will be given the time to build a team and that will be a long process, its just a bad start to his tenure as manchester united football manager.


Right everybody spread out in a bunch, and one at a time please.

Thepoet85

There was a point, when we were 3-1 down I believe, that we got the ball down to the right wing, inside the 18 yard box and whipped in a very dangerous ball across the 6 yard line. Instead of busting a gut to get into a scoring position, Welbeck and another attacker ( I can't remember who ) were doddling around the penalty spot. I couldn't believe they weren't giving it all to get into a great scoring position, it would have been a simple tap in. Summed up the lack of effort and will to win from the team over the season.

The_Kew_Tour

Thepoet85 wrote: »

There was a point, when we were 3-1 down I believe, that we got the ball down to the right wing, inside the 18 yard box and whipped in a very dangerous ball across the 6 yard line. Instead of busting a gut to get into a scoring position, Welbeck and another attacker ( I can't remember who ) were doddling around the penalty spot. I couldn't believe they weren't giving it all to get into a great scoring position, it would have been a simple tap in. Summed up the lack of effort and will to win from the team over the season.

Thank **** im not alone in thinking this. It was around 85th minute too.

Welbeck just jogged into box, not care in the world.

If I could thank your post twice I would