Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14

TheDoc

Al Capwned wrote: »

What's this?

Week before the late late toy show I picked up some odds on Bet365 for the colour of Tubs jumper. I got good odds and went with my local bookies for Green.

My mates did some of the same, as did alot of Boards.ie posters (its covered over there) who went for various colours and what not. Good odds, just a bit of a laugh.

Toy shows rolls around and tubs come out in a very clearly Green jumper, with a hint of red. But was obviously dominantly green.

Long story short, Bet365, boyles etc all paid out on Green, where as Paddy Power ( who enticed punters with better odds) paid out a fraction claiming that it was a dead heat, considering the jumper was red and green equally. Their overuled even their own terms and conditions of a "dead heat" and basically made unsavoury dealings with a number of boards users, irish punters and mates of mine.

I thought it was pure scumbag tactics, that when there is a little bit of doubt a bookie pulls a fast one. I called up next working day to cancel my account and withdraw my poker account ( I play alot of online poker at mid stakes, so substantial money ) and then got made jump through hoops for over two weeks before receiving my balance.

Have zero time for them now, closed my account and moved to Bet365, which has been a flawless experience with much better odds then PP.

Sorry for the OffTopic, but there is nothing more lowlife then a bookie refusing a payout without a valid reason : /

Backstreet Moyes

Leftist wrote: »

we seem to be hearing that after almost every result that isn't a win. Luck.

We were unlucky with the ref's decisions

we were unlucky to concede when playing well

it's miles beyond the point of luck anymore. it's happening on a consistent basis. You can get a bad ref or a bad day here or there but it's almost every week now.

The point nicholson makes that I agree with especially, is that moyes brought everton to a certain level, one that never really did anything but plod into a europa cup position and then stagnated.

We have been unlucky with ref's decisions a good few times this season. Young against Spurs and Wellbeck yesterday were stonewall penalties never given.

I hope your last part is some sort of joke. He had a tiny budget and for 9 season's out of 10 had them finishing to expectations or above for a club like Everton.

Devil08

Things Calmed down in here yet? People still chewing the hands off themselves? I've always said it, I'll back Moyes for 2 seasons at least. Give him a couple more transfer windows. Give him time to get rid of the dead wood and bring in his own players. He deserves that chance, it's ridiculous to want him out when he hasn't even put his own stamp on the club yet. That will take time. He can't change the club over 6 months.
So...any thoughts on the colour of tubridys jumper for this Christmas? I'd nearly go red this year

TheDoc

Also was listening to the Sunday supplement yesterday (as always) and they had a short segment on Zaha. They went to a guy, forget his name, but indication was he was close to United, discussed two points


1) The "row" with the loan deals being cancelled seems to have some weight. However reasoning seems sound. The club feel Zaha may receive more playing time second half of the season with the poor form of the current United wingers, along with injuries and the potential exit of Nani, Moyes wants to hold on to evaluate the situation. There is still every chance he will go on loan, but they want to just hang on for a bit.

2) He discussed the reasons for Zaha not featuring, which he seemed confident to go into detail. According to himself and "sources" Zaha has not adapted well to life at a big club. His mental attitude does not seem up to par, and the manager does not feel the player fully understands the expectations of a United player when playing and his responsabilities. Seemingly this has been raised with the player multiple times, but each time has been reacted to abruptly and abbrasively. He was giving the impression of a somewhat egotistical young player who evaluates himself higher then he really should.

It looks like a classic case of a player signed during a previous manager, coming into a new one. The indication seems to be he needs to get the head down and start taking the lead from the older players trying to assist him, rather then shrug them off acting like a know it all.

Leftist

Nuts102 wrote: »

We have been unlucky with ref's decisions a good few times this season. Young against Spurs and Wellbeck yesterday were stonewall penalties never given.

Yeah that happens to nobody else.

If all those individual decisions went our way eh?

Nuts102 wrote: »

I hope your last part is some sort of joke. He had a tiny budget and for 9 season's out of 10 had them finishing to expectations or above for a club like Everton.

in 10 years of managing a club (that is capable of being one win off 4th without him), he came reasonably close to winning a domestic cup once and never showed anything close to promise in the europa league.

he did a good job of stabalising everton. he never showed any potential that would say this guy can manage manchester united.

other than the fact ferguson personally liked him.

Leftist

Devil08 wrote: »

Things Calmed down in here yet? People still chewing the hands off themselves? I've always said it, I'll back Moyes for 2 seasons at least. Give him a couple more transfer windows. Give him time to get rid of the dead wood and bring in his own players. He deserves that chance, it's ridiculous to want him out when he hasn't even put his own stamp on the club yet. That will take time. He can't change the club over 6 months.
So...any thoughts on the colour of tubridys jumper for this Christmas? I'd nearly go red this year

why does he deserve that chance?

Devil08

Leftist wrote: »

why does he deserve that chance?

Because he was chosen to be manager of the club. A club who will give managers time. He wasn't picked to be judged over 6 months. He was picked as a long term replacement and was given a 6 year contract. Fergie left the club in ****e, there's a lot of work to be done.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone wanting him out now is a pure idiot and is shortsighted

rob316

Im no fan of moyes but to be fair to him even Ferguson would have struggled this season. The standard is very high. Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool and Everton all much stronger.

J. Marston

Devil08 wrote: »

Because he was chosen to be manager of the club. A club who will give managers time. He wasn't picked to be judged over 6 months. He was picked as a long term replacement and was given a 6 year contract. Fergie left the club in ****e, there's a lot of work to be done.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone wanting him out now is a pure idiot and is shortsighted

And I could say anyone wanting to keep him is an idiot with their head in the sand. But I won't.

He's had his chance and he's turned us into an upper mid-table team in six months.

Vinz Mesrine

Devil08 wrote: »

Because he was chosen to be manager of the club. A club who will give managers time. He wasn't picked to be judged over 6 months. He was picked as a long term replacement and was given a 6 year contract. Fergie left the club in ****e, there's a lot of work to be done.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone wanting him out now is a pure idiot and is shortsighted

Where's this evidence that United will give a manager time? Because they did it with Fergie nearly 30 years ago? What about the managers before him?

Come out of the fog, football has changed since 1986 and Moyes needs to start producing results and silverware/top 4 or else he will be gone by this time next year.

wonderfullife

v3ttel wrote: »

21 years of age, moving to a new country, and after 6 months he is a "misfit"

For £30 odd million he's had next to zero impact. Perhaps it's too early to call him a misfit....or perhaps he's a carbon copy of Aquilani at Liverpool. The Italian league is piss poor and easy to shine. I predict he'll be off out on loan or permanent in summer.

Getting back our two best players (which would most certainly) improve results, would be a false positive?

No, thats a true positive.

What i mean is, if when they come back United are in 8th and finish strongly to finish 5th it would create an illusion that Moyes is starting to get it right. Which would be false - given it'd be coming at the tail end of the season when it means nothing against clubs in mid-table security (if that exists this season!).

In April, we play Hull, Norwich, Everton, and Newcastle. How will those teams be tired?. From the 65+ games they'll have to play and all those high intensity two legged knock out games in the latter stages of European competitions? Oh wait.

And all 4 of those have huge squads and rotate generously thereby keeping fresh players...oh wait. Norwich and Newcastle are thread-bare squad wise, Everton are short and play more or less the same 11.


What would you class Chicharito/RVP & Kagawa/Rooney as?

Chich - Underused.
RVP - injured
Kagawa - Underperforming
Rooney - injured.

I did say FIT players - where was the creativity last night? Adnan? 1 player!!! Who else went on lung bursting runs, mazy dribbles, picked out incisive balls between the lines? And as good as Adnan is , he's still years away from filling into his frame and becoming anywhere close to the finished product physically.

As a pair, i'd have Cabaye and Remy any day of the week ahead of Adnan and Chicharito on this seasons form.

.

bucketybuck

Devil08 wrote: »

Because he was chosen to be manager of the club. A club who will give managers time. He wasn't picked to be judged over 6 months. He was picked as a long term replacement and was given a 6 year contract. Fergie left the club in ****e, there's a lot of work to be done.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone wanting him out now is a pure idiot and is shortsighted

It works both ways though.

He needs to be given time sure, but he also needs to give something back. He needs to actually ****ing do something, give us something to hang onto. As it stands we are going to arrive into the summer with nothing done to fix the glaring issues with the club. One year later and it looks as if things will be exactly the same as they were last summer, the same underperforming players playing the same limited tactics.

Just because he was chosen as the manager of the club doesn't mean he gets a free pass to freeze like a rabbit in the headlights. He will get time, but he needs to damn well use that time. Two transfer windows passing without addressing blatantly obvious squad problems is not a good use of that time in my opinion.

TheDoc

Leftist wrote: »

why does he deserve that chance?

too much emphasis on "deserve" lately.

You know its rare when you can get a coach into a top side that is a ready made package of success.

Chelsea brought in Mourinho after a CL win and league title in Portugal. Fresh in the memory was Greece winning the Euros, and some obscure Champions league wins. There was questions raised at the time of "deserve".

Wenger came to Arsenal from Japan, with to be honest limited success of substance. Alot of people questioned why he "deserved" it.

City this season signed Pellegrini, that if we are honest, flopped at Madrid, and has no real honours of note to his CV. Why does he "deserve" to manage City?

Brendan Rodgers took a formula put in place by Martinez at Swansea and kept it ticking over..why did he deserve the job at liverpool?

It's a rarity in the game of football where a succesful manager with REAL credentials comes onto the market and is available. You know alot of people would consider Moyes tenour at Everton deserving enough of a chance at a big table.

He was selected for a number of reasons, and a number of criteria. Lets not be children here. This is a money printing machine, and one of the most succesful clubs in Britain. I don't think anyone would take lightly the appointment of SAF successor. The club's power clearly feel that continuity, stableisation and essentially moving on from what has been built was the most important.

Who in world football has a track record of maintaining a team to a good standard for a lengthy period of time? There wasn't much past Moyes. And say what you want his Everton sides were excellently organised and always tough to beat, and he worked magic with youngsters and did well with limited budgets.

I was one of those that was happy with Moyes appointment, and very openly outlined my issues with lets say, Mourinho. Mourniho has never planned for the longterm in his life, and has always operated with heavy transfer budgets behind him. The club has put alot of time, money and effort into our youth system, and I'm sure the club felt that it would be KEY in ensuring our competitiveness and replenishment of players in the years to come. When you look at the clubs who splash out big, (City, Chelsea) none of their youth prospects are coming through the ranks. Mourinho for example has little to no examples of him working well with youngsters and developing players, he gets the finished products, or talents on the meteoric rise and slots them in. Let's not loose sight of the reality here.

The only alternative was Pep at the time, who was somewhat free and has a REALLy good track record of working with youth, improving and coaching players. Yet in my opinion, he has a piss poor record in the transfer market, blowing vast sums of money on poor signings that he doesnt not integrate correctly.

No managers perfect, there is no great managers anymore, just good managers for the right situations. Our criteria looked like it was someone to continue on the work that has been done, ensure the utilisation and rejuvanation of our youth system, and maintain our various challenges for titles etc. Ok the last point is falling a bit short at present, but looking at all those points, none of them are instant, all are longterm. The club selected someone longterm and the evaluation on his performacne will over a longterm period. Doing anything shorter would be outragous.

Red_Dwarf

I think for the rest of this season should be Damage Limitation and do a BVB and bring in young talented players over this transfer and the summer transfer.

Stick to average age of 21 and go from their.

Leftist

Devil08 wrote: »

Because he was chosen to be manager of the club. A club who will give managers time. He wasn't picked to be judged over 6 months. He was picked as a long term replacement and was given a 6 year contract. Fergie left the club in ****e, there's a lot of work to be done.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone wanting him out now is a pure idiot and is shortsighted

say what you like, I would say the exact same thing about anyone suggesting ferguson left the club in ****e, or that moyes has any potential to turn it around.

TheDoc

Red_Dwarf wrote: »

I think for the rest of this season should be Damage Limitation and do a BVB and bring in young talented players over this transfer and the summer transfer.

Stick to average age of 21 and go from their.

Dortmund went their route because they were on the brink of bankrupcty and being eradicated from the German footbal scene. Pretty big difference and that would be an amazing, drastic shift in tactic that simply will neer happen imo

Backstreet Moyes

Leftist wrote: »

Yeah that happens to nobody else.

If all those individual decisions went our way eh?


in 10 years of managing a club (that is capable of being one win off 4th without him), he came reasonably close to winning a domestic cup once and never showed anything close to promise in the europa league.

he did a good job of stabalising everton. he never showed any potential that would say this guy can manage manchester united.

other than the fact ferguson personally liked him.

Moyes finished fourth with Everton and had them competing for Europe in 9 of 10 seasons. This on a budget a fraction of what clubs above him and a good few below him were working on. You don't do that without being a good manager. Your using this season as an example wait until the end of the season before you make any judgements. Moyes finished 6th last season with Everton and Everton currently sit 6th in the table this season.

He did more than a good job of stabalising Everton. He performed arguably above the club's expectation's in 9 years of his 10 year reign.

Devil08

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Where's this evidence that United will give a manager time? Because they did it with Fergie nearly 30 years ago? What about the managers before him?

Come out of the fog, football has changed since 1986 and Moyes needs to start producing results and silverware/top 4 or else he will be gone by this time next year.

Where's the evidence? In his contract. They could easily have given him a 2 or 3 year contract and see how he gets on

Maximus Alexander

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Where's this evidence that United will give a manager time? Because they did it with Fergie nearly 30 years ago? What about the managers before him?

The three managers before him all got time. There have only been two United managers going back to 1930 who didn't get time. And they were truly dire, with win rates of ~35%. Moyes is at ~55%.

Red_Dwarf

TheDoc wrote: »

Dortmund went their route because they were on the brink of bankrupcty and being eradicated from the German footbal scene. Pretty big difference and that would be an amazing, drastic shift in tactic that simply will neer happen imo

Im not sure if it would happen but it did work before for United.

Alot of the premier league players are aging thus rebuilding from youth would set up united for the future. We are simply an aging team who cant handle the spead of the game nor the training provided.

Devil08

Leftist wrote: »

say what you like, I would say the exact same thing about anyone suggesting ferguson left the club in ****e, or that moyes has any potential to turn it around.

Fergie left the team in sh!te. Not a decent cm in the team and he wouldn't sign one for years. The biggest fault in the team for years he never fixed and left It to Moyes to deal with. Now Moyes is getting the brunt of it

Lord TSC

Tbh, what happened 30 years ago doesn't matter in the slightest to me. I no more care what chances were given back then than I do how many league titles Liverpool won back then.

We're in the year 2014 now, and it's a different game, a different team and different expectations than it was 30 years ago. Personally, I feel that had any other "top" team, and not just England but outside as well, had see the rapid decline as we have under Moyes, action would have been taken by now...

DeanAustin

Red_Dwarf wrote: »

Im not sure if it would happen but it did work before for United.

Alot of the premier league players are aging thus rebuilding from youth would set up united for the future. We are simply an aging team who cant handle the spead of the game nor the training provided.

Ah come on. If you're referring to 95-96, United had Bruce, Pallister, Irwin, Schmeichel, Keane, Giggs, Cantona and Cole as well as the likes of the Nevilles, Butt, Beckham etc coming through.

It would be madness to implement a transfer strategy where you boys signed players 21 and under. You'll end up in mid-table and any of the good players you uncover will leave for better clubs. Wenger tried something similar and it didn't really work. You boys try it and it'll be disastrous.

Red_Dwarf

Players and age as of 2013


David de Gea 23
Anders Lindegaard 29
Ben Amos 23
Phil Jones 21
Rio Ferdinand 35
Jonny Evans 26
Chris Smalling 24
Nemanja Vidic 32
Patrice Evra 32
Fábio 23
Alexander Büttner 24
Rafael 23
Ryan Giggs 40
Michael Carrick 32
Tom Cleverley 24
Darren Fletcher 29
Marouane Fellaini 26
Shinji Kagawa 24
Ashley Young 28
Adnan Januzaj 18
Nani 27
Antonio Valencia 28
Wilfried Zaha 21
Wayne Rooney 28
Chicharito 25
Danny Welbeck 23
Robin van Persie 30
Federico Macheda 22

As you can see we have lot of players age wise who are going to find it hard to compete

Devil08

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Tbh, what happened 30 years ago doesn't matter in the slightest to me. I no more care what chances were given back then than I do how many league titles Liverpool won back then.

We're in the year 2014 now, and it's a different game, a different team and different expectations than it was 30 years ago. Personally, I feel that had any other "top" team, and not just England but outside as well, had see the rapid decline as we have under Moyes, action would have been taken by now...

Decline is measured over years, not months. Typical overreaction to the situation

TheDoc

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Tbh, what happened 30 years ago doesn't matter in the slightest to me. I no more care what chances were given back then than I do how many league titles Liverpool won back then.

We're in the year 2014 now, and it's a different game, a different team and different expectations than it was 30 years ago. Personally, I feel that had any other "top" team, and not just England but outside as well, had see the rapid decline as we have under Moyes, action would have been taken by now...

When Frank Rijkaard took over Barcalona, they freefell into downfall, and halfway through his first season were on level points with the relegation zone.

The following season they had another terrible start, but ended up finishing second. Titles and champions league titles soon followed. Took him two summer transfer windows, singing in some players, removing alot of the rot, before the team started to function again at a high level.

Just saying, there are some comparisons to be drawn there.

(Open to correction on the above, it's not ancient history but still a few years ago, but I do remember his head being called for only a few months into the job)

Also worth mentioning that Jurgen Klopp finish sixth, then fifth, with Dortmund before they won their two titles in recent years.

Sure there is good arguements for knowing when something is not working and cutting loose, but there is just a good an arguement as being patient and giving it a few seasons.

Leftist

Nuts102 wrote: »

Moyes finished fourth with Everton and had them competing for Europe in 9 of 10 seasons. This on a budget a fraction of what clubs above him and a good few below him were working on. You don't do that without being a good manager. Your using this season as an example wait until the end of the season before you make any judgements. Moyes finished 6th last season with Everton and Everton currently sit 6th in the table this season.

He did more than a good job of stabalising Everton. He performed arguably above the club's expectation's in 9 years of his 10 year reign.

bit of a vague statement. What was their club's expectations? mid table?

yes he did well with little funds, he competed for europe and yet was completely clueless when he got there. Where is the potential there? for a club the size of United?

I don't feel it makes much difference calling a judgement on moyes now, or in the summer. We're going to finish outside the top4.

There's an ignorance in the school of thought amongst the pro-moyes camp that the people who want him gone are doing it because they are glory hunters with no patience.

Personally I would be happy with a 3 year project, (what moyes says he needs, to make a team, from the current champions) if it meant a young, exciting manager with fresh ideas who was willing to instil an ethos and culture in the club of good, exciting football with young players. eventually.

Moyes is not a young, exciting manager and has never shown potential to deliver this. He was appointed because ferguson ignorantly thought his consistency would basically mean keeping up fergie's work.

Al Capwned

20 years.

brinty

Ok lads we all seem to able Moyes bash and back up in equal measures...but here's a question.

What positives has he brought to the table thus far?? What stand out moments has he delivered??

Janujaz - well no Fergie had ear marked him last season
CL qualification - that was a minimum in a poor group
Beating bayer 5-0 - probably the only one

after that i'm struggling

Mitch Connor

brinty wrote: »

Ok lads we all seem to able Moyes bash and back up in equal measures...but here's a question.

What positives has he brought to the table thus far?? What stand out moments has he delivered??

Janujaz - well no Fergie had ear marked him last season
CL qualification - that was a minimum in a poor group
Beating bayer 5-0 - probably the only one

after that i'm struggling

None of the positives I expected have materialised, and all of the negitives I feared are coming to pass.

gosplan

Signing talented youth won't work alone.

Utd's problem is that they're not top dog anymore.

When Rio, Rooney and Carrick reached their level at mid table clubs, it was a no brainer for them as regards which club they'd join. Arsenal were in for Ronaldo too but he made the correct choice.

Utd probably wouldn't get someone like Ross Barkley now. It'd probably be worse for his career but he'd pick competing for a place at City first.

You need solid reliable 25-30 year olds to put you firmly back in the CL places. Then hope that in time Moyes can build a squad to make the difference.

brinty

Mitch Connor wrote: »

None of the positives I expected have materialised, and all of the negitives I feared are coming to pass.

Mitch you're taking this very hard...
I didn't really see any positives that i thought might materialise
but ye know well I'll be accuse of being a glory hunter and having no patience etc..

keeponhurling

brinty wrote: »

Ok lads we all seem to able Moyes bash and back up in equal measures...but here's a question.

What positives has he brought to the table thus far?? What stand out moments has he delivered??

Janujaz - well no Fergie had ear marked him last season
CL qualification - that was a minimum in a poor group
Beating bayer 5-0 - probably the only one

after that i'm struggling

Positives
- He has gotten Rooney playing very very well
- He got rid of Anderson (although that doesn't really impact our first team)

Negatives
- He has done nothing to address any of the team's shortcomings
- Results have been far worse than even the most pessimistic fans could have imagined
- By reducing United to a mid-table side, he will probably lose his one positive - Rooney

Mitch Connor

brinty wrote: »

Mitch you're taking this very hard...
I didn't really see any positives that i thought might materialise
but ye know well I'll be accuse of being a glory hunter and having no patience etc..

I thought we would have a fit, high pressing high pressure team, playing at a quick tempo, built on solid defensive foundations.

Our team fades far quicker than the opposition.
We don't press after 20min.
We don't exert pressuse.
We play slow predictable football.
Our defense is terrible.

Moyes also failed to sort out the midfield problem, and continued to think Valencia and Young were good enough.

He has done nothing, imo, to be worthy of placing faith and trust in him - and I won't do it simply because of a SAF soundbite.

TheDoc

brinty wrote: »

Ok lads we all seem to able Moyes bash and back up in equal measures...but here's a question.

What positives has he brought to the table thus far?? What stand out moments has he delivered??

Janujaz - well no Fergie had ear marked him last season
CL qualification - that was a minimum in a poor group
Beating bayer 5-0 - probably the only one

after that i'm struggling

ReGalvinised Rooney, when if SAF was still there odds are he wou;d have been sold.

Deserves alot of credit for not only having to deal with that in his first few weeks in charge, but then getting some tremendous performances out of him.

Imagine if a manager walked into Barca and messi wanted out the door, or Madrid and Ronaldo wanting to walk. Credit deserved for keeping hold of a prized asset when he could have easily been sold and flak directed to the previous regime.

And for all we know, advice could have been passed to sell Rooney, but he made a brave and decisive decision, his first, in his first month in charge of the club.

brinty

keeponhurling wrote: »

Positives
- He has gotten Rooney playing very very well
- He got rid of Anderson (although that doesn't really impact our first team)

Negatives
- He has done nothing to address any of the team's shortcomings
- Results have been far worse than even the most pessimistic fans could have imagined
- By reducing United to a mid-table side, he will probably lose his one positive - Rooney

Some fair points and i couldn't disagree with you but i wonder who Rooney is playing for??? I'm holding judgement on this until the summer and see what he looks for i.e. to sign a new contract or the exit door..

keeponhurling

brinty wrote: »

I didn't really see any positives that i thought might materialise
..

I knew it would be hard to retain the league, but thought you never know, it might be a seamless transition, they might carry on where they left off last season.

Also, thought he might do something about Fergie's blind spot - bring in a top class midfielder! especially given Scholes and Giggs' imminent retirements and Anderson's departure

Thought he might have earmarked a long-term replacement for Evra at this stage too.

They are positive's that I thought might materialise

Mitch Connor

TheDoc wrote: »

ReGalvinised Rooney, when if SAF was still there odds are he wou;d have been sold.

Deserves alot of credit for not only having to deal with that in his first few weeks in charge, but then getting some tremendous performances out of him.

Imagine if a manager walked into Barca and messi wanted out the door, or Madrid and Ronaldo wanting to walk. Credit deserved for keeping hold of a prized asset when he could have easily been sold and flak directed to the previous regime.

And for all we know, advice could have been passed to sell Rooney, but he made a brave and decisive decision, his first, in his first month in charge of the club.

But the reality of the situation is that the Rooney problem was just kicked a bit further down the road. Without a new contract being signed our position is no better, and given we are likely to not qualify for the CL, Rooney is probably gone this summer.

Red_Dwarf

DeanAustin wrote: »

Ah come on. If you're referring to 95-96, United had Bruce, Pallister, Irwin, Schmeichel, Keane, Giggs, Cantona and Cole as well as the likes of the Nevilles, Butt, Beckham etc coming through.

It would be madness to implement a transfer strategy where you boys signed players 21 and under. You'll end up in mid-table and any of the good players you uncover will leave for better clubs. Wenger tried something similar and it didn't really work. You boys try it and it'll be disastrous.

I think we are reaching that stage already

1 Arsenal 51
2 Manchester City 50
3 Chelsea 49
4 Liverpool 43
5 Tottenham Hotspur 43
6 Everton 41
7 Manchester United 37
8 Newcastle United 36
9 Southampton 31
10 Aston Villa 24
11 Hull City 23
12 Norwich City 23
13 Stoke City 22
14 West Bromwich Albion 21
15 Swansea City 21
16 Crystal Palace 20
17 Fulham 19
18 West Ham United 18
19 Sunderland 18

Mitch Connor

I know I have been, and continue to be, one of the most critical on here with regards to Moyes - but I really do wish he would turn this around, do something to help me believe in him and his methods, to believe in his vision for United.

For me, Moyes has failed at basically every juncture - i can't even stand to hear the man speak, he speaks with such weak character. Nothing he says is inspiring. It is always 'I wish we were better', 'I hope we will do better', 'We'll try to make things difficult for them'. There is not a shed of public confidence in what he says, always excuses.

tallaghtmick

TheDoc wrote: »

When Frank Rijkaard took over Barcalona, they freefell into downfall, and halfway through his first season were on level points with the relegation zone.

The following season they had another terrible start, but ended up finishing second. Titles and champions league titles soon followed. Took him two summer transfer windows, singing in some players, removing alot of the rot, before the team started to function again at a high level.

Just saying, there are some comparisons to be drawn there.

(Open to correction on the above, it's not ancient history but still a few years ago, but I do remember his head being called for only a few months into the job)

Also worth mentioning that Jurgen Klopp finish sixth, then fifth, with Dortmund before they won their two titles in recent years.

Sure there is good arguements for knowing when something is not working and cutting loose, but there is just a good an arguement as being patient and giving it a few seasons.

So what you're saying is Moyes out Frank in? :pac:

MagicMarker

If there's one positive from yesterday it's that he subbed Evra. My jaw was almost on the floor with that! Fair play.

TheDoc

Mitch Connor wrote: »

and given we are likely to not qualify for the CL, Rooney is probably gone this summer.

That's a bit of speculative comment to make. With no real basis for it. the likelyhood is that with the return or Rooney, RVP and a settling of form we can easily get top 4. I'd back us to finish top 4 any day of the week.

We could just as easily land top 4, bring in serious big hitters in the window, and Rooney signup to a new deal and finally get an uninterupted season of form from him.

All speculative, one as likely to happen as the other

tallaghtmick

MagicMarker wrote: »

If there's one positive from yesterday it's that he subbed Evra. My jaw was almost on the floor with that! Fair play.

He was injured.

Lord TSC

I find it hard to list Rooney as a positive when we know it's going to be the dominating story of the summer AGAIN, and it'll be harder to keep him without CL football.

Anderson is also a worry, cause we're all presuming Fiorentina will buy him in the summer, when we could also have a situation where he's back again.

Playing Januzaj is a major positive, but...
1. We should not be as reliant on an 18 year old who wasn't playing at top level 7 months ago as we are.
2. The treatment of Zaha, for whatever reason, is nearly (but not quite) counterbalancing it; people gave out about Pogba and Fergie, and never stop going on about Pogba, but there's clear parallels here I feel.

Meanwhile, poor results, no transfers, bad tactics and team selections, horrible PR....I just can't see how some people think that the cons aren't massively outweighing the pros.

But then of course, for a lot of people, it's name calling if you cry dismay at the manager, or a shift of the blame to everyone and anyone but Moyes

keeponhurling

TheDoc wrote: »

ReGalvinised Rooney, when if SAF was still there odds are he wou;d have been sold.

Deserves alot of credit for not only having to deal with that in his first few weeks in charge, but then getting some tremendous performances out of him.

Imagine if a manager walked into Barca and messi wanted out the door, or Madrid and Ronaldo wanting to walk. Credit deserved for keeping hold of a prized asset when he could have easily been sold and flak directed to the previous regime.

And for all we know, advice could have been passed to sell Rooney, but he made a brave and decisive decision, his first, in his first month in charge of the club.

If we criticise Moyes for players' bad performances, then he certainly deserves praise for Rooney's good performances.

However, regarding not selling him, it's my suspicion that the only club that that showed concrete interest in him and actually made a reasonable bid was Chelsea.
So it was simply a case of "Welcome to the job. Decision 1: do you want to sell your best player to your biggest rivals or keep him?"

I'm not sure if any non-English clubs made any genuine bids.

MagicMarker

tallaghtmick wrote: »

He was injured.

Ah........


Carry on so.

keeponhurling

So is Vidic suspended for the league cup game v Sunderland, or just premier league?

If he is, and Evra is injured,
back 4 could be
Rafael-Evans-smalling-Buttner

I wonder is there any chance of a return for Fletcher or Kagawa?

Even better if Rooney or RVP could return, but that might be a bit hopeful

Backstreet Moyes

brinty wrote: »

Ok lads we all seem to able Moyes bash and back up in equal measures...but here's a question.

What positives has he brought to the table thus far?? What stand out moments has he delivered??

Janujaz - well no Fergie had ear marked him last season
CL qualification - that was a minimum in a poor group
Beating bayer 5-0 - probably the only one

after that i'm struggling

The bolded part really is a load of crap. He didn't get a game under Fergie and Moyes has managed him well. He has protected him and not overused him. Look at what Rodgers done to Sterling last year in comparison burnt him out instead of phasing him into the team. Moyes has made lots of mistakes but his managing of Janjuaz is by far his biggest positive.

bryangiggsy

Team wise lets look at the next 12 months.

Rio to leave or retire, Vidic and Evra to go in the summer
I predict we will sign Leighton Baines. Jones & Evans to be the new central partnership. Playing jones in midfield is crazy imo. His best position and whay we bought him was central defence. I fear he is going to turn into a John o shea or a phil neville..a utility player .
Midfield. 2 new big signings required and i mean big. a quality holding midfielder and a quality attacking midfielder. to go with carrick/fletch and the not good enough cleverly
Wings: Young to be sold please god. Januzaj and valencia will be there for yrs to come.
Forwards; Hernandez to be sold becuase not getting game time. Shinji to play in the hole when 1 striker is used. Rooney/Van persie or wellbeck. Shinji on the bench when 2 strikers playing
Rooney & Vanpersie i fear will throw the toys out of the pram come summer unless players are bought and changes made.
Fellaini- have no idea were he will fit in...nowhere so far.

Thats the nxt 12 mths