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Turning a mule into a race horse.
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So as mentioned earlier I threw in a ninja entry to tonights Dunboyne 5 mile race. Ninja entry being I told nobody about it and didn't mention it here in advance. A few days after Terenure it was niggling at me that I had sold myself a bit short. When it came time to dig in I had found nothing - Did I try hard enough ? Had going out too fast ruined things ? At the same time I became aware that this race was on. An evening race and probably my last chance at a 5 mile race this year. So I decided to enter it, try for that elusive sub 40 one more time.
Arrived in good time, bit of confusion and delay at the registration / number collection left me having to jog for 5 min to get to the start line which was a lot further away than expected. Nice warm up though
Got to the start line and realised that there was no timing mat at the start which meant that the chip time would actually be the gun time. No major worries - I had my watch and the times quoted here are off my watch. Crossed the start line approx 15 seconds after the gun time.
Set off looking for a steady pace just under 8 min. Bit of congestion in the first mile. Found it hard to get into an appropriate pace. When I got the chance to overtake people it meant bursts of speed. Not the best start to be using energy weaving in and out and also difficult to judge the pacing right. As it turned out I hit the first mile a bit quicker than planned.
Mile 1 7:35
Doh ! The exact same time as the first mile at Terenure
Nothing I could do about it at that point but try and hold back a bit and hope I wasn't blown already. This was my first ever race where I was running not knowing the course. Each turn, road, hill was met fresh with no thought or plan. If I hit a hill I maintained effort and slowed a little, downhill maintained but sped up a bit. All the time trying to stay comfortable but not at 100% effort. I needed to be able to dig later and have something left. Quite surprised to find mile 2 was quicker than Terenure.
Mile 2 7:39
Not feeling too bad at this point I pushed on but at this stage was trying to keep it steady in and around 8 min pace. If the watch went to 8:15 I sped up a bit. If it went to 7:45 I slowed down a fraction. Again this was all about maintaining a bit of energy for later.
Mile 3 7:54
Happy days. All going well. 3.5 miles in I knew just knew I had it in the bag. Steady as she goes etc. Same strategy. Hold it at around 8 min pace. Starting to feel it though and dipped into 8:20 / 8:25 territory a little too often for my liking. Still all went well and mile 4 came in a good time. It turned out that this was the beginning of what was a gradual 2 mile climb home.
Mile 4 8:05
Now at this point I was also aware that I was at 4.04 miles on my watch as I passed the 4 mile marker. A result of the weaving in and out earlier I presumed. This meant that I was a few seconds behind the figures mentioned here. This last mile was tough - very tough. Again the hindsight shows this as an uphill section. By 4.25 miles the confidence I had that I had this in the bag was evaporating rapidly. I was struggling and spending the time doing maths in my head of how long was left, what pace I could drop back too and still make it home and finding myself struggling to hit that pace. I even considered walking for a bit a la Galloway marathon method. Would a brief walk allow me to take off faster and complete the race in the goal time ? It was time to dig deep. At Terenure I came up empty. Tonight I found a bit in the reserve tank and pushed on. At this stage the maths was in overdrive - trying to keep the pace consistently under what it needed to be to get home under 40. A cruel finish for those hanging on awaits at the end of the Dunboyne 5 mile. You turn into the club and have to do a lap of the track before finishing. I was spent at this stage. Got passed out by 6 or 7 people on the track who were having themselves a lovely sprint finish. Me - I was racing that clock hanging on for dear life and praying the finish line would come soon. This was the hardest 400 metres I have ever ran. Managed to come in under 40 min on the race clock (39:51 if I remember correctly) and 39:37 on my watch which in this case is more accurate as there was no starting mat.
Mile 5 8:04 for the mile / 8:23 to finish the course
Total Time: 39:37
Other unofficial PBs along the way ...
1 mile 7:23
2 mile 15:02
5k 23:50
Literally collapsed over the finish line and almost had myself what would have earned me a penalty lap at the beer mile. Lay there for a couple of minutes and soaked it in. I done it. I fukcing done it. This was the goal I set back in 2012 coming off the couch a very fat boy. In the greater scheme of things the time isn't that great or impressive. But for me personally that time is a massive milestone and means so much more to me than a 5 mile PB.
Congrats to Dunboyne club who had a fantastic spread laid out afterwards. I hadn't stayed around after Terenure so this was my first taste of club hospitality. Couldn't believe the amount of sandwiches, biscuits and cake laid out. Had a cup of tea and a sandwich, stood at the club entrance cheering on as many people as I could (this is still a novelty for me - to finish up the field in a race enough to cheer on a load of people behind me) and went home a very happy mule.0 -
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AuldManKing wrote: »Congrats - must have just missed you?? Maybe the new svelte form hid you from our view
Nice work on the Race.
More like I just about made it to the start, was 10 min behind you and was near passed out after
Knew you would be there alright from your log but didn't see you on the night. Next time !0 -
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Over the moon for you PM as I remember reading your original post a few years ago about wanting to aim for the sub 40 so I know how much it must mean to you to finally do it. You're really making huge strides at the moment. You're gonna have a great DCM:D
4th March 2012 set what I thought at the time was a modest goal. That was a few weeks into the couch to 5k program I was on. Still is / was a modest goal in general to be fair ! but turned out I was a lonnnnnnnng way away from it
Did the 5 mile race series in 2012 in 47:10 so was some way away which was closest I got to it before tilting at the marathon windmill, injuries and baby arrival.
This time round I have worked a good bit harder, lost the weight (some of it anyway - still a bit to go!) and the times are tumbling down. At the Terenure 5 mile Mrs Mule remarked to me that for the first time she was seeing me come in to the finish of a race close enough to the what she would call serious runners. She said that the really fast, fit and skinny typical runners had only just finished going through a couple of minutes earlier when I appeared at the finish. Now I know that sounds like an insult but it was a real compliment. She was used to seeing me struggle in at the bottom 10% of a race. I see that sub 40 min as on one hand being a massive milestone of self respect for getting there, for getting that close to the serious runners but it's now an old target that the fat lad had. The newer fitter me says sub 40 min needs a lot of improving. New targets await. 0 -
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well done pacingmule! seems like a lot of determination has gone into that sub40min 5 mile. I was there and doing my lap on the track probably at the same time as yourself, twas a great night for a run, little breeze, good summer weather and a lovely countryside route. The lap at the end is tough alright and you can hear the footsteps behind you as others make you their target so that gave me a bit of a kick-on, will do again.
Cheers !!! I really enjoyed the race in general not just the sub 40.
If you were with me on the track you probably passed me out 0 -
Took Wed and Thursday off. There was a lot of soreness after Tuesdays effort and I felt I needed the extra rest day.
Friday
4 Miles easy at 10:28 avg pace. This felt really really easy compared to the race pace from Tuesday.
Saturday
Bad day for fitness. Great family day though My daughters first communion meant no running, attendance of a party, eating way too much of the wrong food, some beer drinking and basic not giving a flying proverbial about it too Thoroughly enjoyed the day and no regrets.
Sunday
Until of course Sunday comes along and you are focused on fitness again and say to yourself get out there for a good long run to balance off some of the excess. A half marathon will do the trick !
One half marathon @ 10:25 pace 2:16:53
Longest run this year / this time round full stop. Ran at easy enough pace. Last 2 miles were tough. Long steep drag back towards home which hurt a bit. But all in all a solid run which as it turned out beat my PB by 2 minutes. (that was raced in 2012 first time round) I know I'm fitter and faster than then but it's nice to see an easy paced run like that beating my previous all out attempt at the distance.0 -
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Good stuff, what's the next target?
Funnily enough was just about to post about that.
Bohermeen 5k is on this Saturday night. Spur of moment decision today to enter it. I want to take a good swing at a 5k time now that I have gotten the 5 mile time into semi respectable territory
My current official PB for 5k is 28:24 but I ran 5k in 23:50 during the Dunboyne 5 miler on Tuesday. So the official PB is there for smashing but I have no idea what to aim for. Should be able to get closer to 23.00. Might be the perfect time to follow Quirkys advice and just run fast and see what happens from there !0 -
Pacing Mule wrote: »Funnily enough was just about to post about that.
Bohermeen 5k is on this Saturday night. Spur of moment decision today to enter it. I want to take a good swing at a 5k time now that I have gotten the 5 mile time into semi respectable territory
My current official PB for 5k is 28:24 but I ran 5k in 23:50 during the Dunboyne 5 miler on Tuesday. So the official PB is there for smashing but I have no idea what to aim for. Should be able to get closer to 23.00. Might be the perfect time to follow Quirkys advice and just run fast and see what happens from there !
I'd say it would be under 23 you should aim for0 -
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Pacing Mule wrote: »Just realised I haven't got a clue where bohermeen is. Have to get there early enough tonight to collect a race number too. Does anyone know how long a trip it is from the m50 ?
Go out the M3 PM, take exit 9, one for Navan North. Head back towards Navan town and you will come to a roundabout just past a retail park to your left. Bohermeen is the first exit to your left off that round-about.0 -
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Bohermeen 5k
There had been much internal debate about a target time for this tonight. It sounds easy to say take 30 seconds off per mile and you have a 1.5 min+ cut off your 5k time. Reality of course is that 30 seconds off is quite an ask. At Dunboyne 5 mile I had averaged 7:52 pace and had an unofficial 5k PB along the way of 23:50 - but that would be off an inaccurate and weaving GPS. I decided therefore tonight to go out with a spread of goals and to run as fast and hard as I could and hope the time fell favourably. I also resolved not to pay too much attention to the watch.
The minimum I wanted was sub 25
I was aiming for sub 24
The absolute ecstatic time would be sub 23.
It turned out that this was a tough course. Much tougher than Dunboyne. A last minute course change due to a local funeral I believe led to a much tougher course than was originally planned and left us a course with a net climb.
As with Dunboyne I had no idea what to expect from this course. Off we went at a healthy pace. Not as much congestion as usual and I found myself running at a quick pace right from the start. 1st K came - quick glance down 4:33 I think. Quick mental gymnastics and I had me on 22:30 finish. As usual I had made an absolute arse of the initial pacing. On top of that the first mile was uphill - a 23 ft climb and I knew in my heart and soul this wasn't sustainable. Pulled it back a bit pace wise at that point.
Mile 1 7:26 (did not see this at time nor did I see any of the mile splits on way)
Mile 2 was a net downhill. At this point I settled in behind two lads. One Star Of The Sea vest and one TGI Fridays waiter vest (loads of them around so it was one of the Meath clubs with red and white stripes) They seemed to be travelling at a fair clip and I resolved to hang onto them. The road although straight was winding to the left and right and I tried to run the shortest possible route between each twist.
Mile 2 7:33
Mile 3 the last mile home was all uphill and another 20ft of a climb. It was hot and it was tough going. TGI started to pull away at this point but I still had Star Of The Sea in my sights. We were picking off other runners too. That said the pace was dropping so even though we were moving up through the field we were all dropping valuable seconds. I did look at the watch at the 4k marker and I was just over 19 minutes. Panic set in then that point as I started to contemplate a 25+ finish. That was the last time I looked at the watch mid race. Head went down, ran as fast as I could and hoped for the best. Ploughed up that hill just behind Mr Star Of The Sea and turned left into the bohermeen club track on very very weak legs - the finish line being down one side. Looked up saw the clock a few seconds away from the 24 min mark. Fuuuuuck I can still hit sub 24. Run !!! I suspect I broke the world record for 100m on jelly legs. Watching the clock tick past 24 min but knowing I had started a few - how many was a few ? seconds behind the starting gun. Of course the logical move would have been to look at my own watch but I was intent on finishing without it.
Went through the finish line hit the watch, had a mini puke, looked down at watch and it was still going !!! Nooooooo I had hit lap instead of stop. Had I made sub 24 or not ? The answer it turned out was that I had indeed made it.
Mile 3 8:03 / Finish 8:56
New official PB 23:55
Was delighted with that all things considered. I would have been gutted if that was 24:05 rather than 23:55. It wasn't the ecstatic time of sub 23 but I am very happy with it. As perspective goes strava had me with an unofficial PB of 23:41 so it was an all round improvement on the 5k mid Dunboyne race.
And so concludes this particular block of speed orientated work. Over the last six months my notable highlights are ..
2.5 stone weight loss. (3.5 stone from heaviest)
10k PB from 1:02:51 to 57:44 (still a bit soft as it was early in the day)
5 mile PB from 47:45 to 39:37
5k PB from 28:24 to 23:55
Progress is clear to see even if I do say so myself.0 -
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Pacing Mule wrote: »Bohermeen 5k
There had been much internal debate about a target time for this tonight. It sounds easy to say take 30 seconds off per mile and you have a 1.5 min+ cut off your 5k time. Reality of course is that 30 seconds off is quite an ask. At Dunboyne 5 mile I had averaged 7:52 pace and had an unofficial 5k PB along the way of 23:50 - but that would be off an inaccurate and weaving GPS. I decided therefore tonight to go out with a spread of goals and to run as fast and hard as I could and hope the time fell favourably. I also resolved not to pay too much attention to the watch.
The minimum I wanted was sub 25
I was aiming for sub 24
The absolute ecstatic time would be sub 23.
It turned out that this was a tough course. Much tougher than Dunboyne. A last minute course change due to a local funeral I believe led to a much tougher course than was originally planned and left us a course with a net climb.
As with Dunboyne I had no idea what to expect from this course. Off we went at a healthy pace. Not as much congestion as usual and I found myself running at a quick pace right from the start. 1st K came - quick glance down 4:33 I think. Quick mental gymnastics and I had me on 22:30 finish. As usual I had made an absolute arse of the initial pacing. On top of that the first mile was uphill - a 23 ft climb and I knew in my heart and soul this wasn't sustainable. Pulled it back a bit pace wise at that point.
Mile 1 7:26 (did not see this at time nor did I see any of the mile splits on way)
Mile 2 was a net downhill. At this point I settled in behind two lads. One Star Of The Sea vest and one TGI Fridays waiter vest (loads of them around so it was one of the Meath clubs with red and white stripes) They seemed to be travelling at a fair clip and I resolved to hang onto them. The road although straight was winding to the left and right and I tried to run the shortest possible route between each twist.
Mile 2 7:33
Mile 3 the last mile home was all uphill and another 20ft of a climb. It was hot and it was tough going. TGI started to pull away at this point but I still had Star Of The Sea in my sights. We were picking off other runners too. That said the pace was dropping so even though we were moving up through the field we were all dropping valuable seconds. I did look at the watch at the 4k marker and I was just over 19 minutes. Panic set in then that point as I started to contemplate a 25+ finish. That was the last time I looked at the watch mid race. Head went down, ran as fast as I could and hoped for the best. Ploughed up that hill just behind Mr Star Of The Sea and turned left into the bohermeen club track on very very weak legs - the finish line being down one side. Looked up saw the clock a few seconds away from the 24 min mark. Fuuuuuck I can still hit sub 24. Run !!! I suspect I broke the world record for 100m on jelly legs. Watching the clock tick past 24 min but knowing I had started a few - how many was a few ? seconds behind the starting gun. Of course the logical move would have been to look at my own watch but I was intent on finishing without it.
Went through the finish line hit the watch, had a mini puke, looked down at watch and it was still going !!! Nooooooo I had hit lap instead of stop. Had I made sub 24 or not ? The answer it turned out was that I had indeed made it.
Mile 3 8:03 / Finish 8:56
New official PB 23:55
Was delighted with that all things considered. I would have been gutted if that was 24:05 rather than 23:55. It wasn't the ecstatic time of sub 23 but I am very happy with it. As perspective goes strava had me with an unofficial PB of 23:41 so it was an all round improvement on the 5k mid Dunboyne race.
And so concludes this particular block of speed orientated work. Over the last six months my notable highlights are ..
2.5 stone weight loss. (3.5 stone from heaviest)
10k PB from 1:02:51 to 57:44 (still a bit soft as it was early in the day)
5 mile PB from 47:45 to 39:37
5k PB from 28:24 to 23:55
Progress is clear to see even if I do say so myself.
Great going PM fantastic progress, what's next on the cards?0 -
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I find the novice plan 2 good, its suits me a lot I can juggle the lsr from sat or Sunday.
About menos advice got me rethinking paces, did a 1:59 last year so I dont know if sub 4 is a bit aggressive for me.
I honestly think a lot of the novice me included will fall back on lsr pace come the big day
Then the LSR wasn't S enough 0 -
5 miles @ 9:38 avg pace.
Set out to do a 5 mile home today. I know I raced last night but it left me very short on miles for the week. Obviously a LSR would be counter productive today but I figured 5 miles easy wouldn't hurt.
Set out with a target in mind of approx 10 min pace at easy effort. Compared though to last nights race ran at 7:4x pace today was really easy even if the pace was a little faster than expected. Legs were a little heavy at the very start but that was to be expected. It was a nice trip home with a PR whilst running easy on a Strava segment over a .9 mile of a climb which I hadn't ran for a while and don't too run too often. The previous PB was set in February but back then it was whilst running hard. Today whilst running easy. Happy days. 0 -
Hi P_M. Reading with interest
There are cases of people outdoing my sub 1:50 predictions (e.g Rainbow Kirby ran a 3:59 off a 1:56 half) but those people tend to be endurance monsters with a long running history (and invariably female). But having paced 1:50 a few times at the Dublin half (and subsequently pacing 4hrs in DCM) most of those seem to be the ones going for sub 4 with a 50/50 success rate.
However I don't think you should have two targets of sub 4 and sub 4:30. There is over a minute per mile in difference between the two. that is a massive difference (the difference between targeting a sub 40 5 mile and a sub 46 5 mile). If you feel sub 4 is just out of reach then I wouldn't go for 4:30, rather 4:15 or 4:10 even. BTW another rough indicator of sub 4 shape is a sub 50 10k.0 -
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Hi P_M. Reading with interest
There are cases of people outdoing my sub 1:50 predictions (e.g Rainbow Kirby ran a 3:59 off a 1:56 half) but those people tend to be endurance monsters with a long running history (and invariably female). But having paced 1:50 a few times at the Dublin half (and subsequently pacing 4hrs in DCM) most of those seem to be the ones going for sub 4 with a 50/50 success rate.
However I don't think you should have two targets of sub 4 and sub 4:30. There is over a minute per mile in difference between the two. that is a massive difference (the difference between targeting a sub 40 5 mile and a sub 46 5 mile). If you feel sub 4 is just out of reach then I wouldn't go for 4:30, rather 4:15 or 4:10 even. BTW another rough indicator of sub 4 shape is a sub 50 10k.
And then there were muppets like me who ran a 45 and 1:49, and didn't go under the 4!!0 -
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Chivito550 wrote: »And then there were muppets like me who ran a 45 and 1:49, and didn't go under the 4!!
Let's just say you are the opposite of an endurance monster
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Hi P_M. Reading with interest
There are cases of people outdoing my sub 1:50 predictions (e.g Rainbow Kirby ran a 3:59 off a 1:56 half) but those people tend to be endurance monsters with a long running history (and invariably female). But having paced 1:50 a few times at the Dublin half (and subsequently pacing 4hrs in DCM) most of those seem to be the ones going for sub 4 with a 50/50 success rate.
However I don't think you should have two targets of sub 4 and sub 4:30. There is over a minute per mile in difference between the two. that is a massive difference (the difference between targeting a sub 40 5 mile and a sub 46 5 mile). If you feel sub 4 is just out of reach then I wouldn't go for 4:30, rather 4:15 or 4:10 even. BTW another rough indicator of sub 4 shape is a sub 50 10k.
Hi Meno
Considering my last swing at it turned out to be 5.5 hours plus I'd be very happy with a 4:30 I do hear you though. At the moment I am keeping a very open mind. Wouldn't automatically fall back to 4:30 if I felt 4:00 was out of reach but I'm not going to go out like a loony chasing the wrong time either.
The sub 50 10k - That might be on for August. Will see how things go but I don't think I would be too far off it now considering the sub 40 5 mile time.Chivito550 wrote: »And then there were muppets like me who ran a 45 and 1:49, and didn't go under the 4!!
As a matter of interest - did you aim at sub 4 ? what went wrong if you did ?0 -
Great stuff PM - the "mini puke" says you gave it a good rattle. Great PB and all-round progress.
I did !
I hadn't looked at the watch at all for the last km. Had given what I thought was just about everything thinking I had missed sub 24 but then realised I still had a chance. Don't know where the burst of speed came from to get down to the finish under 24 but the stomach let me know sharpish that I had given enough for one day. First time ever I actually threw up at a race. 0 -
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No, I don't think you would be far off it either.
But given you doubt you could run a 1:50ish HM and have few long runs done this year, then I assume endurance is an issue. If endurance is an issue at HM then it is amplified at marathon distance.
I was down at the Enniscorthy HM today and a guy who was 5 minutes faster than Claralara today (and his HM PB is 6-7 minutes faster than hers) was over 10 minutes slower than her at DCM, but given he only averages 30 MPW that is no wonder.
My own experience is that endurance only improves a little over a single training cycle. To improve it a lot, you need several back to back training cycles.
The honest answer is I don't know what my endurance is like at the moment. I've deliberately let mileage increase slowly this time round. Knocked out a half last weekend in 2:16 but it was first time at the distance and done at easy easy pace. That's why I would not be comfortable even trying to hit a 1:50 ish half at the moment. The race work recently has given me a bit of experience of digging in deep when the going is tough so who knows what it will look like for me in a couple of months. Plan is to allow the weekly LSR grow a bit and then take a look at where I am with a long run at pace.
I know endurance won't improve too much in this one cycle but the question is what is my current endurance looking like. Hence the wide window of targets at the moment. 0 -
Pacing Mule wrote: »The honest answer is I don't know what my endurance is like at the moment. I've deliberately let mileage increase slowly this time round. Knocked out a half last weekend in 2:16 but it was first time at the distance and done at easy easy pace. That's why I would not be comfortable even trying to hit a 1:50 ish half at the moment. The race work recently has given me a bit of experience of digging in deep when the going is tough so who knows what it will look like for me in a couple of months. Plan is to allow the weekly LSR grow a bit and then take a look at where I am with a long run at pace.
I know endurance won't improve too much in this one cycle but the question is what is my current endurance looking like. Hence the wide window of targets at the moment.
I think everything you have said there is fair enough, but given that you are unsure I would say air on the side of caution. As marathon training starts i would say it's unwise to target a sub 4 initially. 9:09 would be too tough a marathon pace right now. You will read it time and time again on here, you should train to your current marathon pace, not your goal pace.
However I think 10:20 (4:30 marathon) would be way too soft so my advice would be to train for something in between for now. You will find that by running slower your endurance will improve immensely, your body will be less fatigued and as a consequence you will be able to train more. Eventually you should be able to train to a faster PMP. I know you are thinking of the HH Novice 2 plan but I would say to bare in mind it is till a novice programme. You can't pick an aggressive marathon time off a novice progarmme IMO.
As Ecoli often says consistency is the key. Only with consistency will you gain improvements especially so over a very long distance like a marathon.0 -
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Pacing Mule wrote: »As a matter of interest - did you aim at sub 4 ? what went wrong if you did ?
This takes me back. It's all from a previous running life. I'd done a few 5k and 10k races along with half marathons and some triathlons, so gave the marathon a go. I thought I was training well, but the reality is, now that I know so much more about the sport, that it was a heap of crap. I didn't follow any training program and really just made it up as I went along. The only thing I did decent was get some good LSR runs in. Here's a log I had for it: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64675072
I didn't particularly target sub 4 hours. It was a goal alright but I didn't care too much. I was just interested in getting through it, and as long as I was between 3:50 and 4:10 (the range I expected to be within) then I would be happy out. What went wrong? Nothing really. On the day that is. My second half was only 4 mins slower than the first half and I didn't hit the wall. The damage was done in the training in terms of giving myself a chance at running a half decent time for my capabilities. I cringe now thinking back on it all. Though I still have very fond memories of the marathon, but more for personal reasons rather than sporting ones.
Cracking night out in Rotterdam after guzzling on pints of Murphys! 0 -
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