ELECTRICIAN GIVEN TWO YEAR SUSPENDED SENTENCE

Hitchens

ffs that's shocking

Bruthal

Irish Steve wrote: »

so a cut power cord on a laptop computer could have killed someone

Extremely unlikely though. So unlikely, that the difference between RCD and no RCD would probably not be the deciding factor in a 2 core chord when cut.

Irish Steve wrote: »

OK, I will rephrase that, ALL the circuits downstream of the RCD were effectively lethal.

Any circuit at 230v is effectively lethal then, whether it has an rcd or not. A person can still be electrocuted with an RCD protected circuit. Its just less likely.

liveandnetural

some reading for steve
http://www.esc.org.uk/industry/policies-and-research/rcd-research/in-service-reliability-of-rcds-report/

2 stroke

We discussed this in work today and concluded that the most dangerous thing here is that someone could hit the test button, or even see the circuit tripped, and presume the circuit dead.

Bruthal

2 stroke wrote: »

We discussed this in work today and concluded that the most dangerous thing here is that someone could hit the test button, or even see the circuit tripped, and presume the circuit dead.

Bit of a vague conclusion there. Biggest danger for who?

Not many go to work on circuits simply after viewing a tripped breaker, without testing the circuit, any more than they would after switching off a breaker, and testing.

tomdempsey200

Bruthal wrote: »

Bit of a vague conclusion there. Biggest danger for who?

Not many go to work on circuits simply after viewing a tripped breaker, without testing the circuit, any more than they would after switching off a breaker, and testing.

only diy or consumers


most electricians don't like getting shocked

Bruthal

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

only diy or consumers


most electricians don't like getting shocked

Yea he is likely talking about the bypassed RCD. For a minute I thought he meant RCDs in general.

There would be a potential danger of someone tripping the RCD alright, and thinking the sockets are off.

tomdempsey200

yes the bypassed rcd


he does have a point for the unwary

but no electrician would get caught out that way

Bruthal

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

he does have a point for the unwary

but no electrician would get caught out that way

Yes, that was why I was asking who he meant was in danger. Probably meant the householder in general.

tweek84

This is very interesting as I was working on a house this weekend where I installed a socket circuit when I got to the board to terminate the socket circuit I found the exact same thing that the rcd had been by-passed I notified the owner of the house and asked who done the work and what other work they had done and they had done a chalet for them aswell, yet again the same problem.I didn't have time to solve the problems as I got a call to go to work (sometimes I hate being on call) but after reading this I am glad I didn't terminate my socket circuit and I think I will be contacting the previous contractor or Reci to see what route the house holder should go down.

I am a registered tester and certifier with Reci and as most people don't know is that only a registered approved contractor is allowed work on installing new circuits etc the only work a unregistered contractor can do is change out like for like

http://www.reci.ie/LatestNews/NewsItems/tabid/108/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/22/Restricted-Works-from-1-October-2013.aspx


I would like to add that this house is in a housing estate and there are about 60 other houses this could get interesting tomorrow....

Tuco88

I would not be surprised if that previous contractor was reci/essa covered, To show how much of a joke it is at the moment. October the 7th is another revenue collection... When i was in Canada work was inspected 1st and 2nd fix i thought it was a good idea, it helps the contractor to if he missed any new changes in rules, usually spotted at the 1st fix.

tomdempsey200

tweek84 wrote: »

This is very interesting as I was working on a house this weekend where I installed a socket circuit when I got to the board to terminate the socket circuit I found the exact same thing that the rcd had been by-passed I notified the owner of the house and asked who done the work and what other work they had done and they had done a chalet for them aswell, yet again the same problem.I didn't have time to solve the problems as I got a call to go to work (sometimes I hate being on call) but after reading this I am glad I didn't terminate my socket circuit and I think I will be contacting the previous contractor or Reci to see what route the house holder should go down.

I am a registered tester and certifier with Reci and as most people don't know is that only a registered approved contractor is allowed work on installing new circuits etc the only work a unregistered contractor can do is change out like for like

http://www.reci.ie/LatestNews/NewsItems/tabid/108/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/22/Restricted-Works-from-1-October-2013.aspx


I would like to add that this house is in a housing estate and there are about 60 other houses this could get interesting tomorrow....

why didn't you fit an rcbo and let him sort out his problems with reci/ecssa

tweek84

tweek84 wrote: »

I didn't have time to solve the problems as I got a call to go to work (sometimes I hate being on call) but after reading this I am glad I didn't terminate my socket circuit

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

why didn't you fit an rcbo and let him sort out his problems with reci/ecssa

The rcd is fitted but the installation electrician by passed it, I am assuming it is to do with all the neutrals being fitted to the one neutral bar and the rcd kept tripping as no neutrals were terminated in the rcd protected neutral bar. I don't think it will be a quick fix from looking at the board/rats nest

2011

tweek84 wrote: »

This is very interesting as I was working on a house this weekend where I installed a socket circuit when I got to the board to terminate the socket circuit I found the exact same thing that the rcd had been by-passed I notified the owner of the house and asked who done the work and what other work they had done and they had done a chalet for them aswell, yet again the same problem.

You should notify the owner and RECI in writing and have proof of doing so.
If there was an incident / accident at a later date you may be very glad of this.

As the last electrician to work on this board you could find yourself in a difficult position otherwise.

Irish Steve

So, Will it be possible for ESB, (or Network Electric, or whoever it is now,) to trace who certified this installation?

From the extra information now posted, which only makes the situation even more deplorable, it's sounding like the whole board will have to be stripped out and re terminated to get things correctly set up.

we don't know the age of the estate, which could have a significant bearing on the next question

At what stage would a householder have recourse to things like the home bond guarantee?

Would the householder be able to take action against the original contractor or developer?

Does the householder have any comeback against the architect (or whoever) that signed off the completion certificate on the property.

I'm not altogether surprised, makes me wonder if the whole regulatory scenario needs to be a lot more open and transparent, with potential customers able to look online and see how many jobs a specific electrician has certified over a period of time, and some sort of flagging system that would ensure that if more than so many complaints are made against an electrician, that fact is logged in the relevant database. Is there any transparency within RECI and ECSSA about inquiries into the work practices of electricians, and do they have any equivalent of the fitness to practise committees that operate for areas like doctors and nursing?

Does what we are starting to hear about mean that there is a requirement for a much higher level of inspections on completions of installation?

And before I get stamped on, there are good contractors out there, I've met and worked with some, but there are also too many "registered" electricians who really should not be on the registers, and need to be weeded back out again.

I get the uncomfortable impression that the level of inspections from RECi and ECSSA is woefully low, maybe CER is going to have to become involved in setting a standard that must be met.

Clearly, there are some issues and problems with the new structures and rules that need to be addressed to ensure that the customer can be confident that their installations are safe. Forcing people to use a registered contractor will only work if the customer can rely on the integrity of the regulatory system, and that it does weed out the members that are not performing to the standard that is demanded.
+ So, Will it be possible for ESB, (or Network Electric, or whoever it is now,) to trace who certified this installation?[/QUOTE]

- Note, I said demanded. That is the level of performance that is required, compliance with the published regulations is not optional. If an electrician either cannot or more worryingly will not conform to the requirements, their registration should be cancelled.

tomdempsey200

[quote="Irish Steve;88445051 do they have any equivalent of the fitness to practise committees that operate for areas like doctors and nursing?

[/quote]

The Common Performance Evaluation Scheme
http://www.reci.ie/ContractorServices/RECIProcedures.aspx

I doubt it's up to much though-mostly window dressing

It's not news to any ex reci members like myself that there's a problem with oversight of registered contractors and customer safety although it seems to have just dawned on you in a big way

Irish Steve

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

The Common Performance Evaluation Scheme
http://www.reci.ie/ContractorServices/RECIProcedures.aspx

I doubt it's up to much though-mostly window dressing

It's not news to any ex reci members like myself that there's a problem with oversight of registered contractors and customer safety although it seems to have just dawned on you in a big way

I've known since 1990 (when we moved in here, mentioned in recent days) that there were serious problems with oversight and quality of work, and I see examples of poor work or bad quality on a regular basis.

I suppose that what's now grinding my gears is that with the changes that have been brought in, the compulsory requirement means that if I want to remain legal, I now have to use a registered electrician to do work (on my own property) that I've been accustomed and comfortable doing myself.

If I'm going to have to provide my own quality control, and pay a high premium for the work to be done, then I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the regulators to be very much more pro active in ensuring that the published standards are being met by the members of the club organisation.

I'm also a realist, and recognise that the recent changes are not a lot more than a coup by the vested interests to get Government to force people to do what they've been unable to persuade people to do, and the clubs regulators are primarily interested in maintaining their membership and fee income, so being pro active in actually really regulating is not something they are much interested in.

Yes, Electricity can be very dangerous, I'm well aware of that, and also only too well aware that there are a lot of people out there that don't have a clue, which says a lot about the present education system, I can't understand why the second level system has no "preparation for real life in the real world" content, which for me would include a "the basics of owning a home, and what to do when things go wrong" manual, which the student would get to keep for the time when they really need it.

A guide on how to turn gas, electricity and water off in an emergency, what to look for when a fault occurs, what NOT to do in an emergency, and how to get help when things go bad, and a simple how to do basic simple repairs, some of the threads in here and the plumbing section relating to very basic things are worrying in the extreme, in that it's clear that some of the people asking have no underlying knowledge, and don't even know how to ask the questions about the basic stuff that they use every day in their home, yet they have in most cases left second level ( and higher) with (in theory) good qualifications.

The fact that those same people are not sure how to change a fuse, or correctly operate their home heating system, makes me wonder if the focus of education has become too results oriented.

The other aspect of that is that I am wondering if manufacturers of things like boilers should be legally obliged to put the user manuals for their devices on the web, so that a home owner can get access to the basic information about the equipment installed in their home.

A good plumber or electrician ensures that the manuals that came with the equipment is left at the house, but that doesn't help a second owner, or the owner who is left nothing by the builder.

The scary thing about the fundamental lack of knowledge across the public is that there are some registered electricians out there that are only one rung up the ladder. I'm also well aware, and increasingly so in recent days, there are people who can and will ignore basic safety in order to get out of a situation that they either don't understand or can't diagnose.

An aircraft pilot for an airline is checked in a simulator every 6 months, and a private pilot has to regularly demonstrate their competence to an instructor or other recognised examiner. I don't think it would be unreasonable to have some form of ongoing checking for electricians, with some of that process being open to public examination, so things like proved complaints and the findings of the committee should be available under freedom of information regulations, so that the process can be seen to be transparent.

2011

Irish Steve wrote: »

So, Will it be possible for ESB, (or Network Electric, or whoever it is now,) to trace who certified this installation?

They would only see certificates for new connections.
Besides this would be outside their remit.

If RECI refused to take action (hypothetically speaking) the Commission for Energy Regulation (CER) would be my next port of call.

cast_iron

Irish Steve wrote: »

So, Will it be possible for ESB, (or Network Electric, or whoever it is now,) to trace who certified this installation?

No arm of the ESB are responsible for certification.

At what stage would a householder have recourse to things like the home bond guarantee?

Homebond only cover structural defects.

Would the householder be able to take action against the original contractor or developer?

Does the householder have any comeback against the architect (or whoever) that signed off the completion certificate on the property.

I doubt he would have much recourse. Considering his standard of work, it's highly likely he went wallop in the crash.

In any case, I don't think much would happen anyway. Look at the farce that was Priory Hall - the Architect blamed the contractor, the contractor blamed the sub-contractor, etc. No one who signed off on it appeared to be held responsible. And the whole (lack of) accountability process was apparently brushed under the carpet, Irish style.

Does what we are starting to hear about mean that there is a requirement for a much higher level of inspections on completions of installation?

Inspections should be somewhat frequent, random and with little notice or they are of little use.

.G.

Saw a Reci inspection once. "inspection" consisted of inspector driving into site,having a chat with my employer through his car window for 5 minutes and driving off.

Inspections are few and far between if they happen at all,don't consist of very much and you have lads able to self certify their own work regardless of standard on every job they do. The new laws are a joke when situations like this are allowed to continue. "Safe Electric" registered contractors are no guarantee the work you pay good money for will be done an better than the lad down the road doing the nixer,and thats what the supposed premise of this law is all about,in reality though we know its to tackle the black market and has no interest in the safety of electrical work being carried out.