Why is UCD's campus so ugly?

Mr Pseudonym

UCD and Trinity are, unquestionably, the pre-eminent universities in Ireland. Historically, UCD was seen as somewhat less prestigious (most noticeably in the Arts and Humanities), as the generally lower CAO points requirements would indicate.

That gap has all but disappeared in most subjects, though. And when you consider that UCD courses generally have more places than Trinity's, there's, effectively, parity between the two.

For some courses, UCD is markedly ahead: even though UCD Engineering has 50% more places, requirement for TCD's course is 20 points lower.

It goes without saying that UCD's sports facilities are far in a way superior, and there are more student recreation areas. Several faculties have their own ultra-modern buildings - Law (soon), Business, Science, etc. In Trinity, most faculties share.

There is one area, though, where TCD is unquestionably superior, and that is the attractiveness of its campus.

Fair enough, UCD doesn't have the legacy buildings of the Protestant Ascendancy (TCD benefited greatly from being opposite Parliament!). But, if you replaced all TCD buildings with ones in the style of UCD's, the TCD campus would still be so much more attractive. I think there are two reasons for that: first, there is much more greenery and vegetation in the form of trees, plants, and areas of grass; secondly, there being multiple squares and areas gives the campus a certain (for want of a better word) mystery.

I'm too tired to describe UCD's campus, but, this being a UCD forum, you should all know it pretty well! Basically, lots of concrete and tarmac, not very many trees, and spread out. Why was it so badly designed? It could have been conceived as the anti-Trinity with lots of wooded areas and gardens, and other stuff - I'm not a landscape architect!! It's likely that DIT's Grangegorman campus will eclipse it.

Any thoughts?

Mr Pseudonym

My bad!!







UCD Campus Development

Phibsboro

The new science block is really nice. In general it is still trying to recover from the core brutalism buildings from the 60's. These were badly built at best and possibly ill conceived in hindsight - though it is always difficult to judge these things until a few generations have passed...

Mycroft H

Personally I love brutalist architecture

Canard

It's funny, I just had this conversation with a friend. Given what I had heard at the time about the course I wanted to do, I had no real preference between TCD and UCD and wanted to go to TCD mainly for the convenience - til the open day. I hate the campus! It's so dull and grey to me. Yes there's grass, but it doesn't cancel out the gloomy feeling, and when it rains those cobblestones are a pain to walk on. I love UCD's lakes and on a sunny day it's gorgeous. The construction work last year was hideous, but it's much better now.

haro124

If they could completely redo arts/James Joyce/engineering it would be a lot nicer aesthetically !

Phibsboro

It is definitely an issue of preference

I think that the difficulty most people have currently is that they grew up with it and saw some god-awful examples of it. As it fades into history, some core, well build, buildings will be conserved and kept as exemplars of the style - all the other ****e will be knocked. This has happened with pretty much every architecture style - during the 60's and 70's countless fireplaces were blocked up in older homes in Ireland as the fashion moved towards central heating. Nowadays people are pulling down the plaster with fingers crossed they are going to find a nice old fireplace

I honestly think the main problem with brutalism is that most of it was poorly build - i've seen buildings were the concrete is literally falling off after only a couple of decades. This will hasten the move towards knocking the bulk of them and also, paradoxically, lead to a strengthening of the movement towards conserving the key buildings that remain. I think the main UCD arts building would probably be in an Irish modernism/butalism supporters conversation list.

[Jackass]

It would be nice to see many of the thoroughfares resurfaced, preferably in the tan coloured tar man along the walk by the old part of the science block and the student centre.

The old part of the science block was given a facelift too, with the concrete being covered by sheet metal to make it easier on the eye.

I'd imagine they'll eventually get around to giving an external facelift to Newman and James Joyce buildings as centre piece buildings on the campus, along with the above repaing, I think the campus would be a hell of a lot nicer.

Around the Quinn / Sutherland / New Lake parts it's really nice and they've done a lot of new pavings around the science building (which is a lovely building too), it's just that middle part that needs updating.

I think some of the old buildings should be kept the same, the Ag Science building is a quite nice version of the concrete style of the time.

All in all though, it is by far the least attractive campus of the three Dublin Universities. I'll more than likely be in DCU after I finish my degree this year, and whilst I'm not looking forward to the trek out there, I will not miss the UCD campus one bit - after a while it can really get to you and bring you down into its depressing, cold appearance - especially during the first semester dark and wet days.

AdamD

[Jackass] wrote: »

It would be nice to see many of the thoroughfares resurfaced, preferably in the tan coloured tar man along the walk by the old part of the science block and the student centre.

The old part of the science block was given a facelift too, with the concrete being covered by sheet metal to make it easier on the eye.

I'd imagine they'll eventually get around to giving an external facelift to Newman and James Joyce buildings as centre piece buildings on the campus, along with the above repaing, I think the campus would be a hell of a lot nicer.

Around the Quinn / Sutherland / New Lake parts it's really nice and they've done a lot of new pavings around the science building (which is a lovely building too), it's just that middle part that needs updating.

I think some of the old buildings should be kept the same, the Ag Science building is a quite nice version of the concrete style of the time.

All in all though, it is by far the least attractive campus of the three Dublin Universities. I'll more than likely be in DCU after I finish my degree this year, and whilst I'm not looking forward to the trek out there, I will not miss the UCD campus one bit - after a while it can really get to you and bring you down into its depressing, cold appearance - especially during the first semester dark and wet days.

Though it can look like a scene from Se7en on a rainy day the scenery has never actually affected my mood..spend most of my time in Quinn mind

errlloyd

As awesome as the science block looks now, it looked sh!t loads cooler in the 50s

Eathrin

Engineering, Newman, James Joyce and Ag are the only remaining stand-out ugly buildings left, for me.
I don't think the campus is as bad as it's sometimes made out to be.

Mr Pseudonym

errlloyd wrote: »

As awesome as the science block looks now, it looked sh!t loads cooler in the 50s

How about Earslfort Terrace, with Iveagh Gardens behind it?








Plus, wasn't that central part of Government Buildings used as the Engineering Dept?!

Eathrin wrote: »

Engineering, Newman, James Joyce and Ag are the only remaining stand-out ugly buildings left, for me.
I don't think the campus is as bad as it's sometimes made out to be.

One named for its founder, and one named for its most distinguished graduate.

errlloyd

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

How about Earslfort Terrace, with Iveagh Gardens behind it?








Plus, wasn't that central part of Government Buildings used as the Engineering Dept?!

I thought Eng was in Earlsfort Terrace - if it started in GOVT buildings it certainly moved to Earlsfort before Belfield because my brother had lectures there in 2003. In any case I am 90% sure science was in GOVT buildings. I think those buildings are among the most beautiful in Dublin, but I wouldn't trade them for the advantages of our suburban campus.

Mr Pseudonym

errlloyd wrote: »

I thought Eng was in Earlsfort Terrace - if it started in GOVT buildings it certainly moved to Earlsfort before Belfield because my brother had lectures there in 2003. In any case I am 90% sure science was in GOVT buildings. I think those buildings are among the most beautiful in Dublin, but I wouldn't trade them for the advantages of our suburban campus.

This calls for a Google search!!I think you are right about Science, cause wasn't UCD merged with a College of Science...or was it still Catholic Uni then..? My understanding is that the Medical and Engineering faculties were the last to move from Earlsfort, which happened in early 00's.

Mr Pseudonym

Wikipedia (Government Buildings, Dublin): The centre block of the courtyard under the dome was still used by the Royal College of Science, and later when it merged with University College Dublin, by students from the Faculty of Engineering.

The building that was to become Government Buildings was the last major public building built under British rule in Ireland. The foundation stone was laid by King Edward VII in 1904, and the final completed building was opened by King George V in 1911.

I agree: it's a fantastic looking building. There is a tour of Gov Buildings on weekends, the highlight of which (one of few, tbh) is walking across the courtyard.

errlloyd

Yeah I didn't know if that quote implied that science stayed there or not.

ucdperson

errlloyd wrote: »

I thought Eng was in Earlsfort Terrace - if it started in GOVT buildings it certainly moved to Earlsfort before Belfield because my brother had lectures there in 2003. In any case I am 90% sure science was in GOVT buildings. I think those buildings are among the most beautiful in Dublin, but I wouldn't trade them for the advantages of our suburban campus.

I think UCD Engineering were mostly in Government Buildings until the Eng block was built. I think some moved to Earlsfort Tce when Architecture moved to Richivew in the early 80s.

The last people to leave Earlsfort Tce were Biosystems Engineering, I believe. Rumours exist of bearded lost members of that tribe remaining there in unheated basements with Windows 2000 PCs.

Arthur Rimbaud

Why should UCD try to be Trinity?

I'm sorry but if you really want to have a discussion about architecture, or design, lets discuss that properly. But lets not try to misrepresent the popular misapprehension that Trinity's buildings are more clever or appealing as valid design concerns.

Most people find Trinity more appealing because they don't know anything about architecture. They are usually drawn to anything that they associate with prestige and authority.

UCD buildings have won plenty of architectural awards; archiecturally, UCD is to be commended. Did you know that UCD actually takes a thematic approach to designing its buildings, campus wide? Indeed, the new sports centre won the 2013 People's Choice Architectural Award

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0704/460520-ucd-student-centre-wins-architectural-award/

So lets be honest here. This has nothing to do with good design.

It's to do with an uneducated post-colonial class mania that seeks to reward associations with the 'insiders' of that (thank goodness) long gone era. It's more than a little ludditical, and anti-intellectual.

Mr Pseudonym

Arthur Rimbaud wrote: »

Why should UCD try to be Trinity?

I'm sorry but if you really want to have a discussion about architecture, or design, lets discuss that properly. But lets not try to misrepresent the popular misapprehension that Trinity's buildings are more clever or appealing as valid design concerns.

Most people find Trinity more appealing because they don't know anything about architecture. They are usually drawn to anything that they associate with prestige and authority.

UCD buildings have won plenty of architectural awards; archiecturally, UCD is to be commended. Did you know that UCD actually takes a thematic approach to designing its buildings, campus wide? Indeed, the new sports centre won the 2013 People's Choice Architectural Award

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0704/460520-ucd-student-centre-wins-architectural-award/

So lets be honest here. This has nothing to do with good design.

It's to do with an uneducated post-colonial class mania that seeks to reward associations with the 'insiders' of that (thank goodness) long gone era. It's more than a little ludditical, and anti-intellectual.

First, although I have an interest in art and design in general, I'm by no means an authority. Therefore, references to all but the most known architectural styles and movements will have me frantically Wikipedia-ing.

It may be the case that "most people find Trinity more appealing because they don't know anything about architecture", but that doesn’t necessitate that the university is architecturally unimpressive (a parallel would be that because Mozart is the one whom most who aren’t familiar with classical music appreciate, he is not a significant composer).

The campus combines late-eighteenth and nineteenth century buildings with notable contemporary ones, particularly the Long Room Hub and Ussher and Berkely libraries. The university has been embracing of controversial designs: before the James Joyce library was built, TCD commissioned the poured-concrete modernist design for right beside Ireland’s most famous library.




(The pathways shown are not accurate)



As the above plan shows, Parliament Square is formally laid out, with the Exam Hall mirroring the Chapel. You may disagree, but I think the result is imposing and dramatic:





Looking the other way, with back to Dame Street, the Campanile acts as a boundary between PS and Library Square, which I think works very effectively, creating a sense of space, but not an overwhelming expanse:





To my mind, the Graduates Memorial Building, Museum Building, and Fitzgerald Building are impressive in their own right, but I have refrained from discussing individual buildings, because my original point wasn’t that TCD has more architecturally impressive buildings (hence why I proposed imagining that all TCD’s buildings were replaced with ones in the style of UCD’s); I was, instead, referring to what I saw as the poor and unimaginative layout of UCD's campus. One has a nicer experience walking through Trinity.





I'm sure not by design, but having the campus divided by College Parks works incredibly well, with a line of trees and high wall and railings blocking out the noise of Nassau Street.





I decided not to mention interiors, either, as you would probably label them left-overs from British Rule, but those of the Dining Hall, Exam Hall, Museum Building, Provost's House, and Old Library are all impressive.

With respect, I wonder was the last paragraph necessary. I have yet to be exposed to the "class mania that seeks to reward associations with the 'insiders'" of colonial era, and I am left with the impression that you dislike Trinity because of its history.

errlloyd

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

One has a nicer experience walking through Trinity.

This is a sentence I generally disagree with.

UCD feels like a campus - everyone is young happy relaxed and optimistic. Trinity feels like a tourist attraction. The only thing I dislike about UCD is the flagstones, and even those have mostly been ripped up and replaced with either those tan coloured gravel paths or the tan coloured smooth tarmac paths.

I actually always feel good walking around UCD campus.

Mr Pseudonym

errlloyd wrote: »

This is a sentence I generally disagree with.

UCD feels like a campus - everyone is young happy relaxed and optimistic. Trinity feels like a tourist attraction. The only thing I dislike about UCD is the flagstones, and even those have mostly been ripped up and replaced with either those tan coloured gravel paths or the tan coloured smooth tarmac paths.

I actually always feel good walking around UCD campus.

Each to their own - with the memory of walking past College Parks, on a summer evening, with students lying on the grass drinking cans from the Pav, I don't agree.

Did you copy the bolded from the university prospectus? : pp

errlloyd

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Did you copy the bolded from the university prospectus? : pp

If UCD Let me write their ****ing prospectus every course would be 600 points.

Mr Pseudonym

errlloyd wrote: »

If UCD Let me write their ****ing prospectus every course would be 600 points.

If I did Trinity's, they'd all be 625.

Muff Richardson

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

UCD and Trinity are, unquestionably, the pre-eminent universities in Ireland. Historically, UCD was seen as somewhat less prestigious (most noticeably in the Arts and Humanities), as the generally lower CAO points requirements would indicate.

Point requirements reflect availability of places and not prestige, larger campus and more places will mean less points, the disparity of points for humanity courses between trinity and UCD clearly reflects this with similar demand for both with more places available in the latter

Mr Pseudonym

Muff Richardson wrote: »

Point requirements reflect availability of places and not prestige, larger campus and more places will mean less points, the disparity of points for humanity courses between trinity and UCD clearly reflects this with similar demand for both with more places available in the latter

Points requirements do not reflect the availability of places. Yes - if the places on a course are reduced, the points requirement will increase. But, if you compare Veterinary in UCD (575) and Irish in TCD (365), the only sensible thing to conclude is that Veterinary was sought after by more higher performing students than Irish (and not that there were more available places for Irish). In theory, it's possible that, for two courses with the same points requirement, one may have lots of candidates who scored close to the minimum, whereas the other may have had lots of high scoring candidates, with an outlier being the last candidate accepted. In practise, though, the distribution is even, as suggested by comparing relationship between minimum and median scores.

I am of the belief that, for almost all students, the prestige they attach to one course versus another (of the same subject), is based on which one has higher points. Prestige, after all, is subjective.

Canard

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Points requirements do not reflect the availability of places. Yes - if the places on a course are reduced, the points requirement will increase. But, if you compare Veterinary in UCD (575) and Irish in TCD (365), the only sensible thing to conclude is that Veterinary was sought after by more higher performing students than Irish (and not that there were more available places for Irish). In theory, it's possible that, for two courses with the same points requirement, one may have lots of candidates who scored close to the minimum, whereas the other may have had lots of high scoring candidates, with an outlier being the last candidate accepted. In practise, though, the distribution is even, as suggested by comparing relationship between minimum and median scores.

I am of the belief that, for almost all students, the prestige they attach to one course versus another (of the same subject), is based on which one has higher points. Prestige, after all, is subjective.

Look at it comparatively though. If the course was "Trinity arts", with subjects like Irish and Latin the points requirements would be much lower - possibly 365 as you've mentioned above. Taking a Trinity-esque example of making things more specialised, UCD's languages course was 465 this year and I know most language TSM courses in Trinity were around that last year. The range for UCD arts, while starting at 350, goes up to 600, so the prestige is probably a bit overhyped.

Mr Pseudonym

Elaborating on what the exotic duck above said:

There are roughly two thirds the number of TSM students as Arts students. The median Arts score was 405. A TSM median isn't published. However, the minimum score for all but four of the TSM courses (together accounting for 10%) was still higher than the Arts median. It's likely, therefore, that the TSM median is substantially higher than that of Arts - especially considering TSM includes TCD's highest points course (Psychology: 580) and joint second highest (Maths: 575) - together accounting for 5%.

If TCD TSM courses were combined into an Arts equivalent without telling anyone (i.e. doing so didn't cause students to change their selection), collective points requirement (i.e. minimum) would likely still be substantially above Arts (you would be including high points courses like PPES and SH Psychology, as well). I think there are three obvious reasons for that: the perception is that TCD is better for Arts/Humanities, while UCD better for Engineering; some students may shirk at having to do four (?) subjects in first year (or is it first semester?); despite there being many LC high performers in Arts (the highest, in 2012, scored 600), the low minimum is off-putting.

However, if TCD TSM were combined into an Arts equivalent, TCD would be informing applicants (!), so they would likely be many who change their selection. Two friends in Trinity have told me that they prefer the Philosophy Dept of UCD; I've also heard somewhere that UCD Economics Dept is the largest and best in Ireland. If UCD and TCD both had single-entry Arts courses, and if, as my two really week pieces of evidence suggest, some of UCD's Arts/Humanities departments are superior to TCD's, we would obviously see the points for both come much more in line.

PCX

What have the points requirement for arts courses in ucd and trinity got to do with the aesthetics of the ucd campus?

OneOfThem Stumbled

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

UCD and Trinity are, unquestionably, the pre-eminent universities in Ireland. Historically, UCD was seen as somewhat less prestigious (most noticeably in the Arts and Humanities), as the generally lower CAO points requirements would indicate.

Well, not necessarily.

In terms of CAO points it is really a case of supply and demand. Supply is mainly determined by size of lecture theatres, number of classrooms, and staff-to-student ratio.

DN500 has a capacity of 1230 places each year. If it cut that capacity to 30 places the points would sky-rocket to 625. A bit like denominated entry for subjects like Psychology (DN519 with 75 places has a points range between 515 to 625). Does TCD even have a undenominated entry to arts?

Having said that, TCD does have a good reputation, and has many beautiful period buildings (although, despite common misconceptions, the UCD arts block, for all its failings, knocks the socks off TCD's concrete monstrosity). Although Belfield is lumbered with the 70s/80s buildings which have.. dubious architectural merit... the campus does have the advantage that it finds it easy to find space for new buildings (which do actually look nice).

Also TCD has the Kilternan building on Nasseau St., possibly one of the ugliest buildings in Ireland, looming over the college park.

OneOfThem Stumbled

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Each to their own - with the memory of walking past College Parks, on a summer evening, with students lying on the grass drinking cans from the Pav, I don't agree.

Well, there at least, Trinity beats UCD. Campus security would sequester any alcohol found outdoors in Belfield.

Although I noticed you said "summer evening". In winter it's so dark on the TCD campus it's hard to find your way around (or even get out of when they close off the entrances on Pearse St.)!

Riamfada

I graduated from UCD in 2009 and now I am back doing another postgrad. One thing that has really stuck me this time is how run down the arts block has become.